Axl v. Venom

[Digital Watches]

Venom:

General strategy:
With Venom's range and projectiles, it can be very hard to zone him out, so while Venom is not particularly defensively weak, your only real choice is to go for offense as often as possible. Venom kills you at long range and close range, but is slightly more vulnerable around mid-range.

Defensive tactics:
Venom has some very solid ways of keeping pressure down, even from ranges that most characters don't. If he's shooting low projectiles, you can kill them with rensen, but it's often safer to just IB or dodge them. In fact, I find myself IBing a lot more against Venom than in most other matchups. Since Axl doesn't have anything particularly invincible, getting locked down is a bitch, and you're going to be blocking a lot if you want to win once Venom gets momentum. With IBing, you can occasionally find an opportunity to Housoubako a jump or a ball, or Raeisageki out, or even get a throw off. Unfortunately, FDing Venom out is not very useful, as a good Venom will often have a ball he can send at you to keep pressure going. Be patient, block well, and try to find an opportunity to throw out something fast, such as 2K, or 5K, jump and chicken block, or beat a ball out with rensen. (It's actually remarkable how similar to Axl Venom is in his blockstrings). Don't try to punish FB Mad Struggle, it's level six and has tons and tons of blockstun, it does however have 14F startup, which means you can Housou it if you IB whatever he does before it.

Why you can't zone Venom:
Axl has a bit of a problem dealing with projectiles, and Venom has them in spades, ready to quickly cover any part of the screen. Essentially, the only time you can safely throw out a poke is when Venom is trying to set up balls, and this is the only way to castrate (har har) his ability to lock Axl down while still you have the chance. When it comes right down to it: chains are hitboxes, balls are not, and something with a hitbox is going to lose to something without one every single time. Throwing out pokes will lose to any and all ball hits, as well as carcass raid and stinger aim (Which is FRCable). Yeah, it's a bitch.

Offensive initiative:
Basically, your goal is to wait until you can catch Venom setting up balls, or making a mistake/gap in his rushdown, and then capitalize on it. I tend to try to set up a safe knockdown first, either by beating out a SA ([4]6S/H/D) with Rensen or Housou, or just waiting for a small gap, possibly made by IBing, and going for throw/2D/f.S. Then just keep pressure. Normals to watch out for during gaps are c.S (5F), 2D (6F, low-profile), and Venom's DAA (Invincible from F1, 11F startup, invincible through the first three active frames).

Pros:
-Axl can sometimes prevent ball summoning from far off
-Ball teleport is easy to punish with 2S/6K
-Rensen can occasionally eat projectiles

Cons:
-Gaps in Venom's rushdown are scarce, and hard for Axl to work with
-If there are balls on the screen, most of Axl's long range options are fairly useless
-Balls can be made to avoid Rensen entirely
-Fast, invincible DAA can take advantage of Axl's long startup time for moves during blockstrings.

My opinion:
6-4, Venom's advantage. Axl has a lot of tools he can't use in this matchup, and making one mistake can make it very difficult to come back. With few invincible moves, balls are a nuisance at all times for Axl, allowing Venom to keep him on the defensive for the most part. This is Axl's worst matchup, and the only one that's significantly to his disadvantage.

[Sking]

I could use some help here plz.

I'm having huge problems with venom, he solid rush and lock down kills axl game.
It will be great if I can get tips for survive this horrible an scary match.

[Digital Watches]

I'd say that's actually one of Axl's worst matchups, up there with Millia and probably worse than baiken. I haven't played much of it, but when I did, I lost a lot. Some of the things I learned:

1. Balls beat chains, period. Only use long range to prevent ball summoning, never when balls are already out, and try to get in as best as you can. You need to be on the offensive at all times, or a good venom will take the match's momentum and never give it back. Speaking of which...

2. Venom's rushdown is solid as fuck against a character without decent reversals and close-range pokes. If he has balls out, and is close in, and has the initiative of the match, you're going to be blocking, and doing not much else. That means, of course, that you need to learn to block, learn to avoid high-low game, crossups, and throws. Since some of Venom's game is air-based, 6P and 623S are nice if you can get them in when he's jumping, but still risky as hell. Gaps are too small to even risk a 22F startup DAA. I'd try a well-placed Raeisageki or Housoubako to get out occasionally, but if you can manage to IB/FD Venom's patterns properly, that will serve you best. Your main priority is to get him off of you, and not let him get back on.

To sum it up, this is a rare match that Axl wants to play full-on offensively almost every time. Any competent Venom can outzone Axl pretty easily, since his projectiles are numerous, safe, beat chains, and, most unusual of all, are usually out of the way of a rensen. What's worse, if you're rushed down, it's a very downhill battle. Keep him locked down, don't run away, and don't lose the offensive.

[Sking]

Thanks a lot Digital watches

I use to play that match too much away and that's why I was having problems with venom but now I'll switch to total ofense mode.

[Tigerofthewind]

Come on. It can't be that bad. Venom sucks.

[Digital Watches]

There. Writeup done. If anyone has anything to add, feel free, as it's been a while since I've fought a Venom, and there may be some things I'm forgetting.

[JinSaotome]

Pro for Axl: No one plays Venom.


:v:

[Beowulf]

Allright, how can you aproach safely this guy ?
Any air to ground option is not an issue, as his 6+P is just to effective against any of your chains...

[Digital Watches]

I don't know why you'd want to use long attacks for approach. But yeah, air isn't an option, and Venom rapes your face at zoning. Venom is very much an approach-with-caution matchup, move in too hastily and you'll just eat balls all day, but you also don't want him getting the opportunity to turn the tables on you or it's GG. Basically, I'd say your best bet is be conservative (Running FD, 3P, or 2K, airdash and FD, or something) or try to bait him with safe air normals or other such tricks (Raei S FRC and running counters are options if you're ballsy). Since a lot of the time, from neutral, you're going to be fishing for knockdowns, you might want to watch for situations where your rensen will eat a ball coming forward. Even if you don't hit him, if you do it right, you can end up putting him on the defensive, which is really what you have to do.

[Beowulf]

I don't know why you'd want to use long attacks for approach.
Because getting near him is quite a problem ^^ And then because Axl usually has great long attacks. Usually...

Still, I see what you mean on how to approach him. But then, how do you keep pressure ?
His 2+P, 2+S and 2+D have the advantage if you let a gap in your pressure...
Any particular mixups to intent against him ? with/out tension ?

[Stark]

Venom may have a few things that start up fast, but you have better hitboxes and he has no invulnerability on anything. As long as you bait his dead angle and aren't predictable enough to get slashbacked his only option to get out of pressure is to faultless out, but Axl has ways to get around people doing that. If you're having trouble keeping pressure on Venom, then you really just need to get better at pressure in general, because your basic stuff will work on him. He really doesn't have any options. It's getting pressure in the first place that's the hard part.

[Digital Watches]

Yeah, basically:

1. Do not approach with long range stuff. In some matchups, 2H is a good poke, but not this one, and most of the time, you shouldn't be trying to pull shit like that anyway. AA or bust, remember?

2. Pressure Venom just like anyone. He doesn't have a DP or anything cool like that, so just watch out for/bait the DAA. At <50 meter, he's got nothing.

[HolyOrderChipp]

Do you really need to specifically bait the DAA? Wouldn't that be giving him the pressure escapes he wants? Couldn't you just accept that he might blow 50% on a momentum reversal every so often? Or do you lose if he lands a DAA?

[Stark]

It basically is terrible to get hit by that DAA because if you get hit by his DAA then he has you in his pressure. And... You don't want to be in Venom's pressure. It's generally okay to put strings in your pressure against venom because his options to get out of pressure are like... Jumping out. He's really bad at poking out, especially against a character with large hitboxes like Axl. It's almost better for you to have him try to get out because it means resets and either very good damage or him losing the tension he built up. You don't want to let him get out of pressure free by any means, but Venom's DAA is definitely worth worrying about.

[Digital Watches]

Yeah. Stark hit the nail on the head. It's not so much that the DAA itself is very good, but it's just the fact that Venom has the out he needs to start raping your face again. There's a reason Venoms will blow 50% meter on it, and that's because it could be all he needs to turn it around and win. Saying not to try to bait it is like saying not to bait bursts. Sure, they're wasting their burst, but it could win them the round, and baiting it could win YOU the round, so knowing how to do it is a good thing.

[HolyOrderChipp]

Ah, thanks. So, if he's using balls that could go over Rensen, might 2P be viable? Maybe you could pull something fancy like 2P to hit, then cancel into 623P to eat the ball? Maybe even 63214S if you're being really flashy?

[Sking]

The thing about venom is that he start playing gradius he has the advantage(like always), but the key here is rush that shit down try never let him be out of your long range pokes, being all over his ass makes venom tools a waste.

Resen can go over his balls and hit him, the same with 5P when he is summoning balls make him unable to use balls.

So the best way to deal with venom is rush him like there's no tomorrow

anything more just ask

[Digital Watches]

Resen can go over his balls and hit him, the same with 5P when he is summoning balls make him unable to use balls.

Caveat: Some balls are fast enough and go over rensen, which will fuck you up and you'll get hurt.

[Sking]

Some balls are fast enough and go over rensen, which will fuck you up and you'll get hurt.

:psyduck:

[Stark]

Carcass Raid doesn't have an FRC. You may want to edit that.

[Digital Watches]

Oh. Haha, didn't see that post 'til now.

Thanks for catching that.

[wonetrack1]

<< i Play W/Venom Ex.. One of my Best

[faultydefense]

I have to disagree with some of this, theres a large middle area where axl > venom


as the venom:
i play against an axl a lot, and i'm very hesitant to summon pool balls within any range that can get hit by rensen. any area directly above that and venom can get hit by 5P/6K/2S

imo, venom wants to be as far away as possible (already mentioned) or right the fuck on top of axl, i'm all for rush-down axl, and i know he does indeed have mix-ups, but you can't say his mix-up is as good as most of the characters who are more prone to rush-down. I think both characters can control a large amount of the screen, and once one blocks he's got the advantage for a while. If anything puts this in venom's favor, it'd be that both characters play this match somewhat similarly, but once venom gets in, he's better at putting the match away than axl is.

Not to mention axl can do 40% to venom off a 5P with 25% bar...no corner necessary, venom NEEDS corner or at least some nice ball shenanigans to do that damage.

Long story short, this match up to me is, both characters have to stay on the ground unless they have some insurance (venom has balls out, axl is gonna frc/bomer/FB somethin), if the match can stay in that mid-range, axl can dominate, that mid range starts around the edge of axl's 3P/2D moves, ends at the end of 2P/rensen). If the match stays at full screen/close quarters, 9/10 times venom will take it.

I'll be the first to admit that venom has a very strong mix-up game, and its not an easy task to FD all the right moves and IB all the right moves, but if you happen to FD the right shit, venom will end his string right in axl's range

I guess my advice to axl players is just to stay in that range as long as possible, don't rely on jumps cept max range j.S/j.4P at most. Venom gets some of his best setups off of close anti-airs.

match-up imo 5-5 / 5.5-4.5 venom

[Digital Watches]

Lawl.

Um, yeah, there are ways for Axl to win, and staying on top of venom is it, but a good venom is gonna know how to get around those mid-range issues, and his f.S is almost as good a poking tool as Ky's in this matchup, so I would disagree that venom has issues with that range, especially since good venoms aren't just trying to run in without something covering them (Which is the ONLY reason you should be eating 2H at mid-range instead of punishing it hard, so like, be Zappa or HOS or ABA or Anji or something). Also, 2P is not a poke at neutral midrange, it's for punishing and keeping you blocking. If you don't believe me, go into training mode and have Axl throw it out. Now do any move that might hit it. It'll probably beat it.

So yeah, Axl does a lot more damage (I'd even go far as 50% damage from 25% meter, if not more), but he's still not got nearly as good ways to just lock that shit down in this matchup. Axl pokes at mid range are f.S, 3P, 5H, and 2H, and frankly, Venom can deal, it's really not that stacked there.

If damage was all that mattered in a matchup, Millia would be bottom-tier.

[faultydefense]

was that really lawl worthy?

by your argument, i guess max range isn't a problem becuase axl can jump, counter, block pool balls, and close range is perfectly fine cuz you have S/HS DP's

venom can deal? really? i never said he can't do anything there, but from experience, its a better range for axl and i'm just not comfortable throwing shit out at that range. I have f.S which leads to nothing (if i try to summon a pool ball from 5S axl gets free pokes), but axl can get knockdown off some pokes at this range, whereas close range i have faster pokes and far range my shit is safe from long ass chains. And weren't YOU the one going on about how you just need to up your game with Axl pressure?

I think it also goes to mention, just because you, shuuto, or whoever the good JP axls are dont constantly throw out 2P/5P and the like, doesn't mean axl doesn't have those options, doesn't mean people, especially american players aren't going to use it, doesn't mean that I'm not gonna worry about it like he doesn't have those choices. Likewise, just because you think 5S is gonna shut down axl midrange all day, doesn't mean i'm going to spam it. Especially against a character who has a counter...

AND because I feel like you're gonna bring it up...axl doesnt counter at this range or w/e...it can and will happen and it will make some people hesitate to 5S.

edit: its not a matter of venom trying to get in behind a pool ball if axl is the one that initiates mid range gameplay. I'm not saying that you stop a venom cold here, I'm saying when you get the edge, this is the place you would probably want to stay. Also I'm not prone to pushing buttons when I see chains coming at me so don't expect me to try attacking 2P's on reaction with a character that doesn't have an uppercut.

I don't think for an instant that damage is all that matters...but for gods sakes it is worth mentioning from time to time...I stand by the belief that range is the #1 factor here.


double edit; I think I came off too passionate in this post...if you're reading this and attaching a voice to it in your head...try to make it more monotone

[Stark]

I have to disagree with some of this, theres a large middle area where axl > venom


as the venom:
i play against an axl a lot, and i'm very hesitant to summon pool balls within any range that can get hit by rensen. any area directly above that and venom can get hit by 5P/6K/2S

imo, venom wants to be as far away as possible (already mentioned) or right the fuck on top of axl, i'm all for rush-down axl, and i know he does indeed have mix-ups, but you can't say his mix-up is as good as most of the characters who are more prone to rush-down. I think both characters can control a large amount of the screen, and once one blocks he's got the advantage for a while. If anything puts this in venom's favor, it'd be that both characters play this match somewhat similarly, but once venom gets in, he's better at putting the match away than axl is.

Not to mention axl can do 40% to venom off a 5P with 25% bar...no corner necessary, venom NEEDS corner or at least some nice ball shenanigans to do that damage.

Long story short, this match up to me is, both characters have to stay on the ground unless they have some insurance (venom has balls out, axl is gonna frc/bomer/FB somethin), if the match can stay in that mid-range, axl can dominate, that mid range starts around the edge of axl's 3P/2D moves, ends at the end of 2P/rensen). If the match stays at full screen/close quarters, 9/10 times venom will take it.

I'm not really sure where you're coming from on this as it seems to me the edge of 3P/2D area is pretty good for Venom. You say laying balls is dangerous when rensen threatens you, that's true, but Venom has a lot of very nice pokes around that range, chiefly fS but also 2D and in some situations even 6H. If you can get Axl to block something, you can safely set a ball, and that makes things so much easier for you. Axl really wants this not to happen, and should try to use the threat of Rensen to let him advance to where Venom's pokes are more cumbersome. Running rensen is a good tool for corner pushes, and fS has the best hitbox among Axl's normals for dealing with Venom's pokes. 3P is often good but it will never beat Venom's fS; I say this as a player of both characters here.

[faultydefense]

i'll give you all of that, but maybe if i reword this, and from experience a lot of this has become based on preference, and i ask you as someone who plays both characters, do you ever play axl vs venom?

where do you feel most comfortable with venom?

and at mid range, venom does have options, but doesn't axl twice as many? and I used to 6H more in this area, but local axl can sometimes counter on reaction. If i touch you with anything close range it doesn't go into ball, it goes into venom mix-up pressure which is way worse

Whenever I'm midrange it just feels like a giant !!! comes up over my head, because it seems if we play the guessing game, the risk/reward/rock paper scissors tends to lead in axls favor. I'm not gonna get axl to jump at this range, but axl can get venom to jump, and axl definately has ways to deal with jumpers here as well as if i stayed on the ground.

maybe if i added that most of the axl's i've played (i play one almost every day) seem comfortable with trading hits a lot of the time, you can see why i'd feel this way

[Digital Watches]

If you're seriously worried about getting countered, I don't think we're talking about the same situation. Venom wins the mid-range footsie war most of the time, even without balls. I mean, there's definitely a spacing where Axl has the advantage in that respect, but it's not some ginormic range that's most of the screen. Venom 2S and f.S are really fuckin' manly moves, and I'm pretty sure f.S in particular can stuff rensen pretty handily from a good distance, like Ky's. You can argue the damage thing gives Axl some kind of vague edge, but zoning ain't a game he's winning here, just flat out.

[Digital Watches]

but axl can get venom to jump, and axl definately has ways to deal with jumpers here as well as if i stayed on the ground.
Correction: Axl can deal with you MUCH BETTER if you jump.

Yeah, you can't just sit there against a good Axl and have free reign to dick around with whatever, but we're talking about high-level, you both have a strong command of the way your characters and the other characters zone, Venom is at an advantage. Advantage doesn't mean Axl can't dominate if he's smart enough to trick you or has the command of spacing to put himself in a good position when he can and defend well when he can't, because GG just isn't that kind of game.

EDIT: And yeah, don't poke with 6H at neutral except as AA. I have no trouble dealing with that move on the ground.

[BioLogIn]

A nice chat you have here.

From my personal experience as a Venom versus Axl, my 5S or 2S range is the last place where I want to be in this matchup (neutral position, no balls around). In the best case scenario, I successfully poke and summon the ball... only to go to block and be pushed away from the ball. In worst case, I get a counter-hit and\or knockdown off Rensen ([4]6S). And risk\reward is not in Venom's favor here.

Of course if I ever get a full screen distance, this is good. And getting close _with a ball summoned_ is good for Venom as well. But significiant part of the game is the midrange, and Venom cannot effectively get off midrange (jump is banned, poking is risky, dashing without balls is suicide) except by blocking =)

Also, during attack Venom may have more mixups with balls out, but Axl does more damage. Period. And in close range, TK Bomber >>>> TK madstruggle =)

So I cannot agree that this matchup favors Venom as much as 6-4. I'd rather say that it is pretty even, like 5-5 or something. It is just may feel heavier for Axl players because you have to alter game plan significantly, but it isn't easy for Venom as well - normally you aren't punished for summoning balls from the other side of screen ))

[Digital Watches]

A nice chat you have here.

From my personal experience as a Venom versus Axl, my 5S or 2S range is the last place where I want to be in this matchup (neutral position, no balls around). In the best case scenario, I successfully poke and summon the ball... only to go to block and be pushed away from the ball. In worst case, I get a counter-hit and\or knockdown off Rensen ([4]6S). And risk\reward is not in Venom's favor here. Er, yeah you can get punished for summoning far away, but you can always get a knockdown and do sweep->Summon.


Of course if I ever get a full screen distance, this is good. And getting close _with a ball summoned_ is good for Venom as well. But significiant part of the game is the midrange, and Venom cannot effectively get off midrange (jump is banned, poking is risky, dashing without balls is suicide) except by blocking =) From a neutral position, getting in on any character is a guessing game. Just in Axl's case, you have to wait for him to throw out something before you can IAD. Yes, trying to run away and keep Axl out from match start isn't prudent most of the time, but getting in is where you want to be and not super difficult, especially if you can get that knockdown, and frankly, f.S is going to beat most moves Axl tries at match start. A good venom isn't trying to get in just by running forward, so Axl's ground tools aren't going to be as effective as against someone who is. It's a guessing game, and winning it makes the match turn heavily in your favor.


Also, during attack Venom may have more mixups with balls out, but Axl does more damage. Period. And in close range, TK Bomber >>>> TK madstruggle =)
Facts:
-TK Bomber has a minimum height, increasing its startup. From the air, the two moves (S mad struggle) have about the same startup, and TKB is more visible.
-Axl cannot normally do TKB in a blockstring from the ground. He has to either airdash (This requires meter to rensen you first, and then you're expecting the overheads), or hit with an extremely close 6P (Which doesn't leave you in much blockstun, you still have most AAs as an option WITHOUT IBing) or c.S (You can still jab out if you have a jab.)
-TK Bomber has 18F recovery after landing, meaning if you whiff it, you get hurt. Many venoms use S Madstruggle to whiff intentionally and do more mixup, as it only has 6F recovery after landing.
-TK Bomber has a lot of blockstun. But with the high recovery, this only really allows you to continue your blockstring by linking 2K or 5K. You can do frametraps, but then, so can anyone off good SD. S Mad Struggle has a whole ton of mixup you can do with it, including whiff->Throw (Tough for Axl in particular to deal with), Hit->Low, Hit->Madstruggle again (High), Whiff->Low, etc. It's genuinely tough to block, as opposed to just forcing you to block.
-TK bomber nets you a combo near the corner, or knockdown all the way across the screen. TK mad struggle can net you knockdown anywhere and you get to stay on top of Axl and even summon balls.


So I cannot agree that this matchup favors Venom as much as 6-4. I'd rather say that it is pretty even, like 5-5 or something. It is just may feel heavier for Axl players because you have to alter game plan significantly, but it isn't easy for Venom as well - normally you aren't punished for summoning balls from the other side of screen )) It not being Easy for the Venom player, like I've mentioned before, doesn't make it an even matchup. Yes, you still have to play some guessing games, and yes you can still lose the match for guessing wrong, but in terms of options in a given situation, and ability to shut the other character down once they get going, as well as turn the match around once it's started to go one way, Venom is at a significant advantage.

[BioLogIn]

-TK Bomber has a minimum height, increasing its startup. From the air, the two moves (S mad struggle) have about the same startup, and TKB is more visible.

TK Mad Struggle also de-facto has minimum height - it becomes 0-hit version if done too low. And 0-hit version usually sucks, it is totally punishable.



-Axl cannot normally do TKB in a blockstring from the ground.

Neither can Venom. TK Mad Struggle from blockstring is not safe unless balls are involved.

All in all, I see your points, but I'm kinda surprised that you omit the fact that bomber leads to damaging combos. Period. It is kinda wrong to ignore combos that do about 300-350dmg for 25-50% tension (or with some guard involved), right?

[Digital Watches]

Well yeah. Axl gets some nice damage if he can set it up right (More than 25% meter doesn't really help you get more damage, it just lets you combo from midscreen), but the setups for that kinda damage are the less solid combo setups. TKB in the corner or CH FB or Kokuu FRC in the corner will net you a nice 230-330 (Character matters a lot. Without guardbar, optimal combos only do 300-ish on Dizzy, Millia, that sort of people. Venom ones cap out around 278 (Kokuugeki combo, 272 for bomber) without guardbar. Keep in mind that this is ideal conditions, in the corner, starting from the top of the lifebar, etc.), but you're capping around 150-230 range from anything you're going to get a lot without guardbar (Rensen FRC, throw especially).

I'm not saying damage isn't a factor, but it's not a big enough problem for Venom that it makes the matchup even. Yes, Axl does better damage than Venom in a combovid/guardbar/YOU JUST GOT YOMI'D situation. But the fact of the matter is that TKB is a risky mixup (It simply will not work in a lot of situations, and ones where it will are sketchy as fuck, since you can poke out of it in any situation where it's not a meaty) and Mad Struggle is a viable overhead that Venoms use a lot in actual matches and can genuinely make blocking ambiguous. Aside from that, Venom's undeniable ability to beat Axl out at more ranges than not, and furthermore, his ability to keep Axl locked down and guessing for long strings that build guardbar make this match very difficult. It is considered to be Axl's worst matchup, clocking in at 6-4, because of these factors.

As a general rule, guilty gear isn't the kind of game where favorable matchups are just completely stacked, so obviously Axl has some tools and it's not always going to look one-sided. Having to block in certain situations doesn't automatically mean the matchup isn't in venom's favor, and it's just speaking to how well-balanced the game is that there are ways for Axl to get venom on the run. But by that logic, every matchup in the game would be even (Maybe not May-Anji), which is simply not true. The fact of the matter is that a very high-level Venom is more likely to win this match than a very high-level Axl. Venom's a harder character to learn, too. Your mileage may vary, etc.

[faultydefense]

i can def agree that tk mad struggle > tk bomber, its like a 7 > 3 match-up, and bomber isn't even a bad move

but thats cuz that forcebreak is just tits