HDTV Input lag

[DRK Vice]

A friend of mine is offering me a deal at his 37 inch sony bravia rear projection LCD HDTV. I however have a plethora of concerns with input lag. Does anyone know anything about this? or perhaps were I can get input lag data on TVs? Also does anyone else play on an HDTV and suffer from the difference? I'd imagine input lag would be noticeable to some extent. I've been playing on an archaic CRT since the dawn of time and it is dying slowly so I could use the new one, if anyone has any information i appreciate the help.

-Vice

[No Limitz]

A friend of mine is offering me a deal at his 37 inch sony bravia rear projection LCD HDTV. I however have a plethora of concerns with input lag. Does anyone know anything about this? or perhaps were I can get input lag data on TVs? Also does anyone else play on an HDTV and suffer from the difference? I'd imagine input lag would be noticeable to some extent. I've been playing on an archaic CRT since the dawn of time and it is dying slowly so I could use the new one, if anyone has any information i appreciate the help.

-Vice

I 100% guarantee you there will be lag.
If it's one of the newer Bravias (even better if it's an XBR) they should come with a game mode which makes fighting games in the least playable. But there's never a 100% way to get rid of it.
Your best bet is to go personally test out the game on your friend's TV before purchasing.
And this definitely isn't the right forum for this. >_>

[BANGER]

Ye, game mode/turning off all post processing effects is your best option to alleviate lag.
But is it an LCD or a DLP? I think a DLP wouldn't have lag, no?

[qwerty]

we really should have a faq or something on the subject like srk has, if nothing else it could contain all of these threads.

in any case, i'll offer everything i can with the information given.

there's a couple of simple rules of thumb to keep in mind when dealing with input lag:

1. if it's an lcd, it lags.
2. if it's a digital connection (dvi/hdmi), it lags.
3. if it's being upscaled, it lags.

now from your post, all i can gather is that you're looking at getting an lcd, which will without exception have some input lag. how much, of course, is what you're looking for. start googling for "timecode tests" and see if you can find any for that particular model of tv. if not, then try conducting on yourself before buying it. if you need any help with making sure your test is accurate, just ask in this thread and tell us your setup (ie: connections, resolutions, refresh rates, camera shutter speed, etc).

the main thing here is that you want a test that can yield conclusive results. unlike some people (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=176887&p=6731564#post6731564) who seem to have a lewd obsession with half-assing everything they can get away with, i place a lot of value in assuring that any lcd i play on is as close to lagless as possible.

[Spirit Juice]

You should find out the model number of the TV and google its specs. There are a few things to consider in regards to TV lag: response time and upscaling. Newer TVs generally have good response time (2 ms). Most of the lag from TVs come from post processing when it upscales and also to make it look nice and smooth (to my knowledge at least). Some TVs come with game mode which makes this better, but it won't get rid of lag 100%. If you're playing a game that is in HD and it supports your TV's natural resolution (720p or 1080p), there should be no lag.

I have a Sony Bravia, also rear projection, and playing BB is perfect. If you plan on playing other fighting games on old consoles such as the PS2, your best bet is to stick to a standard TV.

[qwerty]

There are a few things to consider in regards to TV lag: response time and upscaling. Newer TVs generally have good response time (2 ms).

response time refers to white to black/gray to gray pixel response, which has nothing to do whatsoever with input lag. what it does effect is ghosting, which has been more or less a non-issue since 2005.


Most of the lag from TVs come from post processing when it upscales and also to make it look nice and smooth (to my knowledge at least).

half true. upscaling does cause some lag, but most upscaling (for ps3 and 360 at least) takes place within the console itself, so in most cases the display's upscaling process won't be the primary cause, since it's receiving an upscaled signal anyways.

post processing is a much more significant issue, and one that consumers have been left in the dust on. fortunately, most tv manufacturers have at least been courteous enough to disable this by default on their vga in ports, so for 360 owners at least (or anyone with an hdfury (http://hdfury.com/)) this is an easy solution to reduce input lag.


Some TVs come with game mode which makes this better, but it won't get rid of lag 100%.

let's just get this out of the way right now; on any kind of lcd display, nothing will get rid of lag 100%. the trick is to reduce it as much as possible to the point where it's not significant enough to matter (which is, for all intents and purposes, entirely to the player's discretion).


If you're playing a game that is in HD and it supports your TV's natural resolution (720p or 1080p), there should be no lag.

most console games advertised as being 720p are almost always a lower resolution being upscaled to 720p. and i don't know of any console games off the top of my head that claim to be native 1080p but if there is one i'm sure it's also being upscaled from a lower resolution.


If you plan on playing other fighting games on old consoles such as the PS2, your best bet is to stick to a standard TV.

it's not like there aren't options if you want to improve the image quality of your older consoles. there's the x2vga 2 (http://www.x2vga.com/) as well as the xrgb series upscan converters (hori made one too, but good luck finding one). it would be recommended to play those on a crt computer monitor though and not a large, laggy lcd.

[Spirit Juice]

Good stuff to know.

Regardless, he's probably asking about lag if he's playing BB. There should be very little lag, hardly any noticable at all, if his TV is similar to mine. Other games will run just fine unless it's like a really really shitty TV.

I personally don't think it's worth it spending money on a converter like that these days. Not really on topic though since he probably needs to know old games will always lag on HDTVs. It's just better/easier to play on an old TV.

[Gwyrgyn Blood]

let's just get this out of the way right now; on any kind of lcd display, nothing will get rid of lag 100%. the trick is to reduce it as much as possible to the point where it's not significant enough to matter (which is, for all intents and purposes, entirely to the player's discretion).

There are a bunch of LCDs that have effectively 0F lag in comparison to CRTs so that's not entirely true. However those are pretty few and far between and many of them are commercial or professional displays.

[DRK Vice]

My concern is playing BB on an XB360 console on this TV. The general consensus is that LCD TV's lag and thank you all for your responses. Qwerty your response was especially helpful. Qwerty, by your first response I'm assuming that you are playing BB on an LCD TV as well? I want to assure the least possible lag if I'm going to buying this TV. I cannot stand input lag and I notice any kind of lag, and I just know it would drive me insane.This deal from my friend seems on face value to be pretty decent for his 37inch bravia LCD HDTV for 250 USD. I'm going to get the model number from him later in the day and look up time code tests as you advised. I'll post the model number once I receive it, I would be much obliged if you could check behind me though make sure I am looking up the right thing and drawing the correct conclusion.

[Niko]

I'm going to get the model number from him later in the day and look up time code tests as you advised. I'll post the model number once I receive it, I would be much obliged if you could check behind me though make sure I am looking up the right thing and drawing the correct conclusion.
That's the best thing you can do. The refresh rates for Sony Bravia LCDs vary greatly between models and even version numbers. I went through great lengths to get the previous release of the one I was interested in; the current version was tested at like 30+ ms even with game mode activated, compared to the 0-5 ms of the older model that I ended up buying.

[Frank The Tank]

Computer monitors are a good answer for playing games at higher resolutions. This is due to the fact that some (not all) of them assume that there's a video card doing the post-processing already.

This is the monitor I use, and it's tested at 4-6ms every time with the RB2 test. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824254026&nm_mc=TEMC-RMA-Approvel&cm_mmc=TEMC-RMA-Approvel-_-Content-_-text-_-) It's 28 inches, which isn't that big but definitely big enough, as input lag was my number one concern when buying something to make my PS3 look pretty. It's also pretty damn cheap. If in the future TV manufacturers decide to fix this issue, then I can just use the monitor for my computer when I upgrade.

As gwyrgyn said, commercial displays are the BEST when it comes to input lag, but those things are fucking expensive.

[Narcowski]

There are a bunch of LCDs that have effectively 0F lag in comparison to CRTs so that's not entirely true. However those are pretty few and far between and many of them are commercial or professional displays.

...or intended for use as PC monitors.

In fact, I'd argue that frame lag is more a concern of PC hardware manufacturers than TV ones; the percentage of the market that cares is larger (still tiny, of course). That's not to say 1ms response flatscreen monitors are common, but they're more readily available (and more affordable) than 1ms TVs.

[Frank The Tank]

Oh, and for the record, response time and refresh rate have almost NOTHING to do with input lag.

[Gwyrgyn Blood]

You're probably aware of this as well but the RB2 test isn't reliable. It can give you a ballpark figure but people have seen it being off by a few frames in either direction before.

[Raidhyn]

So to sum it up I can blame the fact that I suck on my LCD? =)

Honestly though, i play on a fairly cheap 32" LCD. I run my PS3 at 1080i w/ HDMI inputs. What settings / cables could I change to lower the input lag?

[BANGER]

Since digital inputs on TVs lag, would using a DVI-to-VGA converter on the DVI end of a HDMI-DVI cable reduce lag? i.e. whatever device that is connected via VGA to the HDTV will be assumed as analog by the HDTV and thus have less lag?

[The_Grither_]

I have a Samsung 40 1080p and I get lag online ( duh). And lag in training mode but I think that's not the tv but the training mode itself cuz offline has zero lag. My old ass normal tv seems to work the best imo just doesn't look good

[qwerty]

My concern is playing BB on an XB360 console on this TV. The general consensus is that LCD TV's lag and thank you all for your responses. Qwerty your response was especially helpful. Qwerty, by your first response I'm assuming that you are playing BB on an LCD TV as well? I want to assure the least possible lag if I'm going to buying this TV. I cannot stand input lag and I notice any kind of lag, and I just know it would drive me insane.This deal from my friend seems on face value to be pretty decent for his 37inch bravia LCD HDTV for 250 USD. I'm going to get the model number from him later in the day and look up time code tests as you advised. I'll post the model number once I receive it, I would be much obliged if you could check behind me though make sure I am looking up the right thing and drawing the correct conclusion.

i actually do all of my widescreen gaming on a dlp, but display technology is a subject i have researched very thoroughly (to the point of obsession, really).

since you're playing on a 360, you have the benefit of native vga output. if you get a vga cable (i actually recommend the first party one over any of the third party ones, it's a pretty complete package), that will be an easy way of ensuring what i would call minimal lag.

if/when you do your timecode tests, i would conduct them using a laptop's vga output if possible. if you don't have a crt monitor though, it would be advisable to do both composite/s-video in conjunction with half of a vga test.

and be sure to test out any "game modes" the tv may or may not have- the more data the better.

[qwerty]

Oh, and for the record, response time and refresh rate have almost NOTHING to do with input lag.

refresh rate does matter when taking pictures of two displays with the intent of figuring out how much they may or may not lag.

[Kasou]

odd enough i've been playing blazblue and sf4, and tekken 6 on my pana hd plasma with no lag. Or is it cause im used to it? Like I play the drums (hard/expert) on rock band and again i feel no lag. Is it an issue only with lcd?

edit* Don't worry. I guess the panasonic plasma's is just awesome in the no/minimal input lag thing.

[FoxSpirit]

Yup. Or mine, a Sony KDL40W4000 :keke:

Be wary though that the 4100 series (if I'm not mistaken) marketed in the US behaves much worse. And the 5000 series is again really standard issue.

My personal test is to use various reflex test programs. I know my PC monitor has 0-16ms lag and I get exactly the same scores in those when I go through my HDTV. I feel this is a pretty accurate method to evaluate that stuff.

[MisoSowee]

Just wondering, does all this lcd hdtv lag and stuff (the discussion on the first page) also apply to HD monitors? Like computer monitors :o
I'm thinking of getting one, and it'll be using HDMI cables. That's all I know right now, since I'm still planning stuff out :P

[BANGER]

Monitors almost have no delay in my experience, i.e what shittons I've read about them (thanks alot for the panel fiasco with the 226BW, Samsung. I've learned so much from it.)

and lol "HD monitor"

[MisoSowee]

Shadup shadup :[

and thanks, that eases my worries a bit lol.

[Shazay]

Just wondering, does all this lcd hdtv lag and stuff (the discussion on the first page) also apply to HD monitors? Like computer monitors :o

Yes.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=39226

[BANGER]

^woops my bad. I'm always thinking of TNs. But what I said applies to TNs: almost no noticeable/considerable lag.

Other panels are a different issue. Most likely you'll be getting a TN panel monitor so no worries.

But if you're curious, here's a link to compare input lag of LCD monitors vs CRT.
http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=88&mo1=174&p1=1747&ma2=36&mo2=224&p2=2104&ph=12

A Dell PVA panel on the left, and a Samsung TN panel on the right. Look at the difference.
Go check out the monitor you want in the click box thing there.

[MisoSowee]

Sorry for being the electronics noob, but what's the difference between S-PVA and TN? Is one pricier than the other? Is one more durable?
As you can tell this monitor is going to be a big investment... D:
Gotta be careful :P

[BANGER]

That link Shazay posted has more than enough info to answer your question.

Search "I. Panel Types" and read away.

[MisoSowee]

Whoops. I just saw a few dates and freaked. Leave it to a 14-year-old not to look carefully...


sorry 'bout that :sweatdrop:

[DRK Vice]

Alright, the model number is KDF-37h1000 and as I mentioned before this is a 37inch Sony Bravia HDTV. I'm coming up dry on the timecode tests, it seems my Google skills are failing me. I'm quite a bit hazy on what one would need to do to conduct this themselves could you perhaps clarify that a bit? or do you know were one could ascertain these timecode tests?

[qwerty]

http://blog.arogan.com/2008/09/lcd-hdtv-input-lag-tests.html

[Zenoxio]

Ugh, I never knew digital connections caused input lag. I currently have a flatscreen 30" HDTV and I was looking at getting a bigger LCD, like this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16889005067
[EDIT] Support says "Abraham: It have 6ms response time". So is this terrible?
I don't see any timecode tests for this. Should I test my current HDTV (or find timecode tests already done) before I buy a new TV? I only have a week while that LCD is one sale. D:

The current HDTV I have now is a Toshiba 30HF85 but I can't find any timecodes test on Google.
http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/televisions/product.asp?model=30hf85

[Linear04]

i have a (lol) 17 inch pc monitor that i use with my computer with knockoff vga cables for my 360

i see no difference from arcades

probably smaller screen = less lag?

[Ducky]

See, I thought the same thing. I switched out my 30ish inch LCD (it's about 2 years old) for a new 19" Toshiba with a gaming mode. It's noticably better.

[DRK Vice]

This is going to sound like an odd question. To update you I did wind up buying that TV, been enjoying it so far minus that I find it odd to play BB on such a large screen(hard to figure out where to look). My question comes from the video cables themselves, does HDMI cables have any additional input lag in comparison to lets say component cables? I'd love to see this TV at 1080 but I wouldn't want to have a pretty picture with slower response.

[qwerty]

this is a non-answer, but it depends.

i'd go buy the cheapest hdmi cable you can find (no more than $10, they're literally all the exact same thing anyways) and test it.

[Sidearm22]

Well, I assume the TV has an HDMI port and/or Component cables, as long as you use an HDMI/component cables you shouldnt have lag. Using composite cables on the other hand will definitely give you Lag with any HDTV. I generally play on this 54" with my component cables that is just beautiful and I get absolutely no lag whatsoever

[Xtra_Zero]

The important part about the scaling is to not let the monitor do it. Even if it isn't 720/1080 naturally, as long as it is that resolution before it hits the monitor and it matches the native res, there should be little to no lag as long as there is no postprocessing bullshit going on. Now, the 360 will scale the game using its hardware, but the PS3 will not. What that means is for 360, your game doesn't dictate which monitor you should use. For PS3, you're better off with a 720p native res monitor. Good luck finding one these days.

Also, best place for cables: monoprice.com

[FoxSpirit]

Though some TVs have really fast scalers. e.g. mine. Though yeah, it's generally better to let the console do it.

[tokyobassist]

probably not the most useful 411 but out of 3 different Vizio models I've tested (2 with component cables and 1 HDMI) none had input lag and the Sony XBR has input lag (barely) with arcade sticks on SF4 and with certain characters like Jin and Hakumen.

[DC]

Sigh how annoying it is to have CRT TVs be better to play on than my 24in Acer monitor. I'll test it out with a VGA cable in the near future.

[KCMmmmm]

I have a quick question: if I hook up my PS3 using the old standard audio-video cable (the yellow, white, red), will this eliminate input lag? I'm aware that I will not be playing in high def in this case, but no input lag > HD.

Anyway, is this also something that could be model-specific? Or am I likely to experience the same amount of lag?

Any help would be great; I don't have a laptop available to test it myself. Thanks in advance.

[Xtra_Zero]

I have a quick question: if I hook up my PS3 using the old standard audio-video cable (the yellow, white, red), will this eliminate input lag? I'm aware that I will not be playing in high def in this case, but no input lag > HD.

Anyway, is this also something that could be model-specific? Or am I likely to experience the same amount of lag?

Any help would be great; I don't have a laptop available to test it myself. Thanks in advance.

If it's an "HD" tv, then chances are doing this will INCREASE lag instead of decrease it. If you play on an old-school CRT using composite (your "yellow, white, red" cables) you should be better off. Not sure how the PS3 handles composite but you'll probably be ok.

[krknight]

it is possible to get lagless monitors and hdtvs.

for monitors, you can go with your industrial lagless monitors that they use in hospitals for surgery which will cost a pretty penny. if you don't have that kind of money, you can go and get one of the tekken cab monitors for a mere 2500 bucks minus shipping (probably direct from japan). also from japan, there is a 26 in (i think that's the size) hd monitor that boasts it was made specifically for gaming to eliminate lag.

according to a former coworker (who went with the industrial lagless), mitsubishi used to make hdtvs without the postprocessing which were lagless but good luck finding the model and then finding one to purchase. now, mitsubishi was manufacturing processing conversion boxes that eliminated lag, but those were running at 2000 bucks (not including the price of your tv) and supposedly those are no longer on the market because of low demand.

other than these options, you're going to get lag when going high definition. i'll look up the hd monitor from japan made for gaming and post it here. i believe it was an LG but nobody had actually reviewed the product so i don't even know if it's worth buying and shipping.

UPDATE- the lg model is the w2363d which is currently available in asian and european markets. you can also get it on ebay with a ridiculous markup at 699.99. it has been tested and is comparable to crt monitors when it comes to input lag. it is 23 inches and will probably retail at around 350 to 400 bucks stateside.

other options are: samsung 2233rz, viewsonic vx2268, and the alienware optx aw2210 (which was the evo pools monitor this year). the thing about the 2233rz and the vx2268 is that they may have been tested dvi ports with dvi cards only so i don't know how well they work with consoles.

the largest lagless hd monitor that is currently available is the sanwa lcd T32H075 (KA) at 32 inches. it's the one they use in the vewlix cabs and it runs for... (drum roll please) 4000 dollars shipping not included. if you have that kind of money, you may as well buy the whole vewlix f cabinet.

i'm probably going with the lg w2363d (when it becomes available) to tide me over until lg uses their thru mode technology on their hdtv's.

[krknight]

http://www.lg.com/uk/press-release/article/immerse-yourself-in-the-game-with-lgs-full-hd-gaming-monitor.jsp

sorry, it was a 23 in, not 26. hopefully this works and LG uses the same thru-mode technology for their big-screen hdtvs. remember that the 2ms response time does not define the input lag.

i stand corrected. there is another lagless 22 in hd monitor.

http://www.mlgpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=207406

according to this guy, the IIyama prolite is also lagless.

[Ronove]

Too bad the IIyama is a 16:10 monitor though, so despite having 0 input lag I wouldn't exactly consider that as a solid option.

The best thing would be to find 16:9 monitors at the least possible input lag. I heard good things about the Samsung XL2370 but I haven't had the chance to test it out.

[Kyosuke Kagami]

I hope the LG Flatron series don't have serious input lag issues :v: I play my PS3 stuff there, and so far I don't feel serious input delay :psyduck:

[BANGER]

Throwing out a question here since this is the most relevant thread with the relevant, knowledgeable people.

How are the input lag on Asus monitors? I notice tournies use them all the time. Is it because they're best suited for fighting games? Do they consistently have low input lag?

I am thinking of buying a 27", most likely a Samsung (P2770). There are no tests for input lag on that monitor, but as far as I can see, monitors of that size seem to have a 23ms-33ms average input delay (source: DigitalVersus). My current monitor (Samsung 226BW A) has an average of 3ms input delay. Is this big jump gonna be noticeable enough? I don't know how you guys calculate ms input delay into frame delays.

[Korszca]

1 frame is about 16.7 ms (1/60 == 0.016666667). So 33 ms is about 2 frames. And remember that is the average, meaning that at times the lag will be even greater, possibly much greater. If you are someone who plays fighting games more than just casually, if there is no reason to get a new display, I would say don't bother.

The Asus VK246H is measured to have an average of 2 ms lag.
http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/review/2009/review-asus-vk246h-part12.html#Lag

I use a Samsung SyncMaster 2494HM, which has an average of 6 ms lag, if you are looking at a Samsung.
http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/review/2009/review-samsung-2494hm-part12.html#Lag

[BANGER]

1 frame is about 16.7 ms (1/60 == 0.016666667). So 33 ms is about 2 frames. And remember that is the average, meaning that at times the lag will be even greater, possibly much greater. If you are someone who plays fighting games more than just casually, if there is no reason to get a new display, I would say don't bother.

The Asus VK246H is measured to have an average of 2 ms lag.
http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/review/2009/review-asus-vk246h-part12.html#Lag

I use a Samsung SyncMaster 2494HM, which has an average of 6 ms lag, if you are looking at a Samsung.
http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/review/2009/review-samsung-2494hm-part12.html#Lag

I see, nice site, good info.
What about arcade cabs? They seem to use 32" HDTVs at my arcade (Arcade Infinity). I believe they're Sonys and Samsungs. Aren't HDTVs more likely to have greater input lag than PC monitors?

EDIT: nm. I just read at srk that cabs use 'commercial' monitors. That explains it.

[Abominable K]

OLED technology boasts a refresh rate of 0.01 ms. Is it possible that OLED TVs could make lag a non-issue?

[qwerty]

you mean response time?

that's the amount of time it takes for a pixel to go from gray to gray or black to white or however they choose to measure it. that has nothing to do with the signal being sent to the display being processed to look better and thus delaying the speed of which the signal is sent to the panel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag

i would say the best bet we have in terms of future display technology is sed, but don't keep your hopes up.

[r0b0t]

you mean response time?

that's the amount of time it takes for a pixel to go from gray to gray or black to white or however they choose to measure it. that has nothing to do with the signal being sent to the display being processed to look better and thus delaying the speed of which the signal is sent to the panel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag

i would say the best bet we have in terms of future display technology is sed, but don't keep your hopes up.


Qwerty knows his shit. I wish I had something useful to post but I dont. When I bought my 27inch LCD PC monitor I did find a forum with good information, but ill have to wait till I get home from work and check my bookmarks(see if its there) to post it up here.

Anyway only thing I can comment on is do your due dilligence, do not buy a TV/Monitor in a panic do the research.

Apprently the monitor I bought was pretty close to zero frames of lag. And I do not notice any lag when I play BB on it, so I think its pretty good.

Ill try and post up later.

[NumeroGaijin]

I have to ask abou my tv as well because I don't feel any lag but was wondering if maybe I am just used to it or something. I have an LG SL90 LED TV with 3,000,000:1 contrast ratio and hdmi inputs which I am using as well. When I went to EVO I did notice alot of tv that had what felt like input lag or was it just me?

[krknight]

23 in lagless hd monitor

http://3dvision-blog.com/tag/lg-w2363d-review/

you can order it here for 588.07 dollars total if you don't know anyone outside of the states.

http://thebestbuykorea.com/wizhome/menu_35.html