Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

QSpec

[P4AU] Elizabeth 2.0 Changes

Recommended Posts

Thought it might be easier to see and discuss if it were its own thread?  Anyway:

 

Elizabeth


Standing AAA

Can only be canceled into sweep on block

Untechable greatly increased

By holding back, SB Mahabufudyne does not come out automatically


Standing BB

Normal cancel window made earlier


Standing BBB

Decreased startup time

Does not float on ground hit

Can be normal canceled into Standing D, Crouching D, and sweep

Can be jump canceled


Standing C

When powered-up, the Persona will produce afterimages


Crouching C

Increased hitstop


Standing D and Jumping D

Increased untechable time

Persona appears farther forward for Standing D

Persona moves faster for Jumping D


Crouching D

Lowered hurtbox size

Poison effect time shortened


Jumping 2B

Total recovery reduced


All Out Attack

Decreased startup time

Decreased recovery


Shuffle Time

Decreased startup time

Increased recovery


Maziodyne (All versions)

Persona will turn to face the opponent

A version blowback adjusted and can be techable on normal hit

Increased untechable time of B version

Reduced Shocked time of SB version

Persona can attack after performing an Awakened B or SB Version


B Maziodyne (Normal)

Decreased startup time


A Maziodyne (Awakened)

No longer wallbounces

Slightly increased startup time


SB Maziodyne (Awakened)

Can be One More Canceled

First shot causes wall bounce, second shot wallstick time reduced


Mabufudyne (All Versions)

Reduced recovery

Persona will turn to face the opponent

A version is super cancelable and One More cancelable

Held SB version frame difference improved

SB version now causes Fatal Counter

Follow-up hit of SB and B versions connects easier when opponent is high up

Increased untechable time of first hit of SB and B version

Increased movement range of the SB and B version

Decreased startup time for Awakened A and B version

Increased the time it takes for the Persona to disappear (After hit for B and SB versions)


A Mabufudyne (Normal)

Increased freeze time

Decreased amount of time where Persona moves are sealed


SB Mabufudyne (Awakened)

Increased recovery for Auto Combo version, Auto Combo version hits opponent easier


Maragidyne (All Versions)

Decreased startup time Awakened versions

Decreased recovery time Awakened version


Randomizer (All Versions)

Command is now Down (charge) Up A or B

Parry recovery is not Fatal Counter recovery

After parry succeeds, if the attack is blocked, it loses the invincibility

If the parry hits successfully, the opponent can now ground tech

The parry startup timing for the A and SB versions is slightly slower


A Randomizer

Increased total recovery


Mind Charge (All Versions)

Reduced the amount of SP gained for B and SB versions


SB Mind Charge

Decreased total recovery


Mahamaon / Mamudoon (All Versions)

Decreased total recovery

Does not disappear when Elizabeth blocks

Persona will always appear on the ground

Untechable time is no longer affected by proration

Only causes a KO under certain conditions


Mahamaon

Greatly decreased startup time

Increased untechable time

After hitting the opponent, if pushed, the opponent will not stay in midair

Only invincible during the superflash


Mahamudoon / SB Mamudoon

Reduced the window where Persona attacks cannot be used

Is now unblockable

Reduced the active frames

When it doesn’t cause a KO, deals fixed damage

When it doesn’t cause a KO, causes a wall bounce


Diarahan (All Versions)

Added an attack portion after the invincibility wears off

Reduced the HP recovered


SB Diarahan

Cannot be stopped before it becomes invincible


Ghastly Wail

Added Fatal Recovery state


Megidoloan

Removed Fatal Recovery state


Guard Cancel Attack

Decreased startup time

Increased recovery time


One Handed Sword Master

Can now be stocked


HP

Increased


Certain Persona Attacks

Persona is now invincible when appearing until active frames (all C attacks, A and B Maziodyne, All versions of Mabufudyne)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

does anyone know what the afterimages portion of 5c pertains to...

I would guess it relates to using 5C after 2C/1HSM has been applied. It's likely a visual cue to make it easier for players (and opponents) to see the buff, rather than by looking at Liz's meter, similar to how "JUST!" and "SHOCKED" now appear on screen to show just-frame release and ailments, respectively. Maybe something like an EX silhouette?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't actually play Liz, but she was initially my first choice (tied with SLab).  I just didn't want to fight a low tier character while learning a new system.  How do these changes look?  Time to pick her up?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ Elizabeth is probably buffed as a character but if you're going by tier lists then you should wait until we see how Liz shapes up against the others. These buffs may mean nothing in the long run if everyone else can beat her down with their changes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's fair.  I actually have looked at the entire list of changes.  Generally speaking, I think I'm fair in saying that characters who needed buffs got them, and characters that needed nerfs also got them.  So far, and this is only after a cursory glance at the changes, they seem pretty level-headed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to know how fast they made her overhead. Her biggest problem (and the problem shared by all of the low tier characters in Persona) is that she has no reliable way to break the opponent's guard. Her throw game isn't scary enough to play an Akihiko bait and punish game, and her AoA is borderline unusable. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aside from some unecessary nerfs to things like shuffle time, ghastly wail and randomizer (asw we need reversal buffs), I'm really happy with these changes, I mean finally they reduced recovery on her mabufus and maragis, both for her and thanatos.

 

really curious about normal b zio, I hope it has the damage of vanilla but recovery of ultimax.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Herr buffs look nice but the nerfs bug me. The nerfs look like they were put there because she had to have a certain amount of nerfs to go with her buffs. Or that they are trying to hammer her flaws into you.

 

"Ghastly Wail is not an ideal reversal move to now it has Fatal Recovery so you get punished harder for trying to use it as one."

 

"Diarahan is not a good healing move so now it heals less."

 

"You should only be using Mind Charge A so now B and SB recover less SP."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Was Wail a good reversal anyways? Everytime I used it as one it was after Mind Charge and I knew I could get a hit from it. I agree it's an unnecessary nerf but I don't think it damages Liz all that much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It was kinda a good reversal in arena, but I'd rather spend my meter else where now, its minimum damage is pitiful even with the 2C and fear buffs, now with the FC recovery state, I doubt anyone would risk it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It was kinda a good reversal in arena

 

No, no it wasn't. I don't even know why you would think that ;-;

 

Also, considering our DP is now faster and Debilitate is actually usable now that it's a pseudo-flash kick...our reversals are definitely better in this version compared to the last two lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Herr buffs look nice but the nerfs bug me. The nerfs look like they were put there because she had to have a certain amount of nerfs to go with her buffs. Or that they are trying to hammer her flaws into you.

 

"Ghastly Wail is not an ideal reversal move to now it has Fatal Recovery so you get punished harder for trying to use it as one."

 

"Diarahan is not a good healing move so now it heals less."

 

"You should only be using Mind Charge A so now B and SB recover less SP."

as said wail was never really good as a reversal, it was more of a combo ender but since vanilla it was nerfed drastically and honestly just got worse even since already being bad.

 

when diarahan had no hitbox it was still terrible. projectile invul helped in so few situations and using the super usually meant you would be punished harder than the hp gained. getting a hitbox and possible a fullscreen knockdown (or close one in the corner) will have a more consistent hp gain and potential in general due to an hp increase for her.

 

as for mind charge. I guess they want all the mind charges used... frankly we do not need 3 versions and should just get one that gives her all the benefits like in vanilla, it was not broken. but anyway, it likely would depend on the situation and how much sp is lost from using b and sb, and how much hp she was at when using the super. example at 100% she wont want to lose out on all that potential blue health.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We'll still be able to use Ghastly Wail in 2.0, it'll probably just be stacked with Mahamudoon to maximize damage in combos. This shouldn't be too hard to setup if we have more meterless routes to work with like I'm expecting (or at least they'll require less meter overall).

 

That aside, I'm more worried about her neutral and pressure game. It looks like she has general neutral buffs, but it'll be awhile before we see how much they affect matchups. Her pressure game looks a bit better, but it still seems to have the same general weaknesses unless she got frame data buffs that we don't know about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Her DP being faster is a bad thing imo lol, because of the long invuln. it went through many things which made it easier for liz to get away with certain Shuffle Time attempts, now it has more recovery which doesn't really matter much since its start up decreased (less invuln hehe), also debilitate is imo also worse, since A and SB versions are now slower, aside from the great change in input, everything about it was nerfed (Slower, opponents can tech before landing, loses invincibility when blocked which is really bad because there were so many cases I used debilitate and it was blocked or super canceled but didn't get punished because of the invincibility)

 

Mind Charge+Ghastly Wail was a pretty viable reversal in Arena XD costly but still at least useful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Her DP being faster is a bad thing imo lol, because of the long invuln. it went through many things which made it easier for liz to get away with certain Shuffle Time attempts, now it has more recovery which doesn't really matter much since its start up decreased (less invuln hehe)

 

It was way too easy for characters to just bully Liz with 5A/2As so that they could react to her reversal. I even do it when I fight other Liz players and they basically can't stop it. Even other normals would recover in-time for the opponent to at the very least tech the DP, which put Liz back at neutral against everyone which was only a marginally better situation than them still pressuring her...compared to everyone else who got to at least press an advantage b/c of a CH knockdown or a large untechable window since their DPs are physical hits.

 

also debilitate is imo also worse, since A and SB versions are now slower, aside from the great change in input, everything about it was nerfed (Slower, opponents can tech before landing, loses invincibility when blocked which is really bad because there were so many cases I used debilitate and it was blocked or super canceled but didn't get punished because of the invincibility)

 

It doesn't matter that it's slower and has less invul. It's usable now. How did that invul or speed help up us when we basically could never use it outside of our wake-up? Liz is so slow and her other options were so poor that it's not like the opponent is worse off waiting for it on wake-up or that Liz could even capitalize off of it most of the time. This risk far outweighed the reward before, but now we can at least use it in other situations to enforce a threat on our defense.

 

Mind Charge+Ghastly Wail was a pretty viable reversal in Arena XD costly but still at least useful.

 

It was okay sometimes, but it was far from reliable. It's not just the resource usage that was bad on it, the risk/reward was terribly skewed on it compared to other reversals to the point where you were better off blocking most of the time unless you knew for sure Wail would punish something. Other supers would at least enforce some kind of neutral threat and be comparatively safe if blocked with extra resources on deck. Wail didn't give us such luxuries so I'd honestly say it wasn't very useful at all lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do agree with the idea of debilitate being usable now other than on wake up, Didn't really think about it that way XD sounds much better than what I said about it lol.

 

It kinda seems like debilitate is an actual reversal now rather than some cheap wake up tactic opponents don't expect

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Taken from the OP of the thread. You can find more detailed changes for Mahamaon and Mamudoon there as well if you're interested in learning more.

 

 

 

 

Mahamaon / Mamudoon (All Versions)

Decreased total recovery

Does not disappear when Elizabeth blocks

Persona will always appear on the ground

Untechable time is no longer affected by proration

Only causes a KO under certain conditions

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Both Mind Charges had a use before though it's the SB one that still confuses me.

 

I believe the point of SB Mind Charge is having both low recovery and retaining Blue Health, though the lower HP to SP ratio isn't very favorable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this was already mentioned (?) but 2D got nerfed, the damge per tick remains the same but the number of ticks has been reduced...In my tests it seems like we lost about 1k ish damage per poison application.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×