QSpec Report post Posted January 15, 2015 Thought it might be easier to see and discuss if it were its own thread? Anyway: Elizabeth Standing AAA Can only be canceled into sweep on block Untechable greatly increased By holding back, SB Mahabufudyne does not come out automatically Standing BB Normal cancel window made earlier Standing BBB Decreased startup time Does not float on ground hit Can be normal canceled into Standing D, Crouching D, and sweep Can be jump canceled Standing C When powered-up, the Persona will produce afterimages Crouching C Increased hitstop Standing D and Jumping D Increased untechable time Persona appears farther forward for Standing D Persona moves faster for Jumping D Crouching D Lowered hurtbox size Poison effect time shortened Jumping 2B Total recovery reduced All Out Attack Decreased startup time Decreased recovery Shuffle Time Decreased startup time Increased recovery Maziodyne (All versions) Persona will turn to face the opponent A version blowback adjusted and can be techable on normal hit Increased untechable time of B version Reduced Shocked time of SB version Persona can attack after performing an Awakened B or SB Version B Maziodyne (Normal) Decreased startup time A Maziodyne (Awakened) No longer wallbounces Slightly increased startup time SB Maziodyne (Awakened) Can be One More Canceled First shot causes wall bounce, second shot wallstick time reduced Mabufudyne (All Versions) Reduced recovery Persona will turn to face the opponent A version is super cancelable and One More cancelable Held SB version frame difference improved SB version now causes Fatal Counter Follow-up hit of SB and B versions connects easier when opponent is high up Increased untechable time of first hit of SB and B version Increased movement range of the SB and B version Decreased startup time for Awakened A and B version Increased the time it takes for the Persona to disappear (After hit for B and SB versions) A Mabufudyne (Normal) Increased freeze time Decreased amount of time where Persona moves are sealed SB Mabufudyne (Awakened) Increased recovery for Auto Combo version, Auto Combo version hits opponent easier Maragidyne (All Versions) Decreased startup time Awakened versions Decreased recovery time Awakened version Randomizer (All Versions) Command is now Down (charge) Up A or B Parry recovery is not Fatal Counter recovery After parry succeeds, if the attack is blocked, it loses the invincibility If the parry hits successfully, the opponent can now ground tech The parry startup timing for the A and SB versions is slightly slower A Randomizer Increased total recovery Mind Charge (All Versions) Reduced the amount of SP gained for B and SB versions SB Mind Charge Decreased total recovery Mahamaon / Mamudoon (All Versions) Decreased total recovery Does not disappear when Elizabeth blocks Persona will always appear on the ground Untechable time is no longer affected by proration Only causes a KO under certain conditions Mahamaon Greatly decreased startup time Increased untechable time After hitting the opponent, if pushed, the opponent will not stay in midair Only invincible during the superflash Mahamudoon / SB Mamudoon Reduced the window where Persona attacks cannot be used Is now unblockable Reduced the active frames When it doesn’t cause a KO, deals fixed damage When it doesn’t cause a KO, causes a wall bounce Diarahan (All Versions) Added an attack portion after the invincibility wears off Reduced the HP recovered SB Diarahan Cannot be stopped before it becomes invincible Ghastly Wail Added Fatal Recovery state Megidoloan Removed Fatal Recovery state Guard Cancel Attack Decreased startup time Increased recovery time One Handed Sword Master Can now be stocked HP Increased Certain Persona Attacks Persona is now invincible when appearing until active frames (all C attacks, A and B Maziodyne, All versions of Mabufudyne) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TD Report post Posted January 15, 2015 does anyone know what the afterimages portion of 5c pertains to... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mixedmethods Report post Posted January 16, 2015 does anyone know what the afterimages portion of 5c pertains to... I would guess it relates to using 5C after 2C/1HSM has been applied. It's likely a visual cue to make it easier for players (and opponents) to see the buff, rather than by looking at Liz's meter, similar to how "JUST!" and "SHOCKED" now appear on screen to show just-frame release and ailments, respectively. Maybe something like an EX silhouette? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
QSpec Report post Posted January 16, 2015 I don't actually play Liz, but she was initially my first choice (tied with SLab). I just didn't want to fight a low tier character while learning a new system. How do these changes look? Time to pick her up? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TastyPancakez Report post Posted January 16, 2015 ^ Elizabeth is probably buffed as a character but if you're going by tier lists then you should wait until we see how Liz shapes up against the others. These buffs may mean nothing in the long run if everyone else can beat her down with their changes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
QSpec Report post Posted January 16, 2015 That's fair. I actually have looked at the entire list of changes. Generally speaking, I think I'm fair in saying that characters who needed buffs got them, and characters that needed nerfs also got them. So far, and this is only after a cursory glance at the changes, they seem pretty level-headed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
9:02 PM Report post Posted January 16, 2015 I'd like to know how fast they made her overhead. Her biggest problem (and the problem shared by all of the low tier characters in Persona) is that she has no reliable way to break the opponent's guard. Her throw game isn't scary enough to play an Akihiko bait and punish game, and her AoA is borderline unusable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
So-Called-Chaos Report post Posted January 16, 2015 Aside from some unecessary nerfs to things like shuffle time, ghastly wail and randomizer (asw we need reversal buffs), I'm really happy with these changes, I mean finally they reduced recovery on her mabufus and maragis, both for her and thanatos. really curious about normal b zio, I hope it has the damage of vanilla but recovery of ultimax. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SupaFella0 Report post Posted January 16, 2015 Herr buffs look nice but the nerfs bug me. The nerfs look like they were put there because she had to have a certain amount of nerfs to go with her buffs. Or that they are trying to hammer her flaws into you. "Ghastly Wail is not an ideal reversal move to now it has Fatal Recovery so you get punished harder for trying to use it as one." "Diarahan is not a good healing move so now it heals less." "You should only be using Mind Charge A so now B and SB recover less SP." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TastyPancakez Report post Posted January 16, 2015 Was Wail a good reversal anyways? Everytime I used it as one it was after Mind Charge and I knew I could get a hit from it. I agree it's an unnecessary nerf but I don't think it damages Liz all that much. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
So-Called-Chaos Report post Posted January 16, 2015 It was kinda a good reversal in arena, but I'd rather spend my meter else where now, its minimum damage is pitiful even with the 2C and fear buffs, now with the FC recovery state, I doubt anyone would risk it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OmnixTSC Report post Posted January 17, 2015 It was kinda a good reversal in arena No, no it wasn't. I don't even know why you would think that ;-; Also, considering our DP is now faster and Debilitate is actually usable now that it's a pseudo-flash kick...our reversals are definitely better in this version compared to the last two lol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TD Report post Posted January 17, 2015 Herr buffs look nice but the nerfs bug me. The nerfs look like they were put there because she had to have a certain amount of nerfs to go with her buffs. Or that they are trying to hammer her flaws into you. "Ghastly Wail is not an ideal reversal move to now it has Fatal Recovery so you get punished harder for trying to use it as one." "Diarahan is not a good healing move so now it heals less." "You should only be using Mind Charge A so now B and SB recover less SP." as said wail was never really good as a reversal, it was more of a combo ender but since vanilla it was nerfed drastically and honestly just got worse even since already being bad. when diarahan had no hitbox it was still terrible. projectile invul helped in so few situations and using the super usually meant you would be punished harder than the hp gained. getting a hitbox and possible a fullscreen knockdown (or close one in the corner) will have a more consistent hp gain and potential in general due to an hp increase for her. as for mind charge. I guess they want all the mind charges used... frankly we do not need 3 versions and should just get one that gives her all the benefits like in vanilla, it was not broken. but anyway, it likely would depend on the situation and how much sp is lost from using b and sb, and how much hp she was at when using the super. example at 100% she wont want to lose out on all that potential blue health. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OmnixTSC Report post Posted January 17, 2015 We'll still be able to use Ghastly Wail in 2.0, it'll probably just be stacked with Mahamudoon to maximize damage in combos. This shouldn't be too hard to setup if we have more meterless routes to work with like I'm expecting (or at least they'll require less meter overall). That aside, I'm more worried about her neutral and pressure game. It looks like she has general neutral buffs, but it'll be awhile before we see how much they affect matchups. Her pressure game looks a bit better, but it still seems to have the same general weaknesses unless she got frame data buffs that we don't know about. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
So-Called-Chaos Report post Posted January 17, 2015 Her DP being faster is a bad thing imo lol, because of the long invuln. it went through many things which made it easier for liz to get away with certain Shuffle Time attempts, now it has more recovery which doesn't really matter much since its start up decreased (less invuln hehe), also debilitate is imo also worse, since A and SB versions are now slower, aside from the great change in input, everything about it was nerfed (Slower, opponents can tech before landing, loses invincibility when blocked which is really bad because there were so many cases I used debilitate and it was blocked or super canceled but didn't get punished because of the invincibility) Mind Charge+Ghastly Wail was a pretty viable reversal in Arena XD costly but still at least useful. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OmnixTSC Report post Posted January 18, 2015 Her DP being faster is a bad thing imo lol, because of the long invuln. it went through many things which made it easier for liz to get away with certain Shuffle Time attempts, now it has more recovery which doesn't really matter much since its start up decreased (less invuln hehe) It was way too easy for characters to just bully Liz with 5A/2As so that they could react to her reversal. I even do it when I fight other Liz players and they basically can't stop it. Even other normals would recover in-time for the opponent to at the very least tech the DP, which put Liz back at neutral against everyone which was only a marginally better situation than them still pressuring her...compared to everyone else who got to at least press an advantage b/c of a CH knockdown or a large untechable window since their DPs are physical hits. also debilitate is imo also worse, since A and SB versions are now slower, aside from the great change in input, everything about it was nerfed (Slower, opponents can tech before landing, loses invincibility when blocked which is really bad because there were so many cases I used debilitate and it was blocked or super canceled but didn't get punished because of the invincibility) It doesn't matter that it's slower and has less invul. It's usable now. How did that invul or speed help up us when we basically could never use it outside of our wake-up? Liz is so slow and her other options were so poor that it's not like the opponent is worse off waiting for it on wake-up or that Liz could even capitalize off of it most of the time. This risk far outweighed the reward before, but now we can at least use it in other situations to enforce a threat on our defense. Mind Charge+Ghastly Wail was a pretty viable reversal in Arena XD costly but still at least useful. It was okay sometimes, but it was far from reliable. It's not just the resource usage that was bad on it, the risk/reward was terribly skewed on it compared to other reversals to the point where you were better off blocking most of the time unless you knew for sure Wail would punish something. Other supers would at least enforce some kind of neutral threat and be comparatively safe if blocked with extra resources on deck. Wail didn't give us such luxuries so I'd honestly say it wasn't very useful at all lol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SupaFella0 Report post Posted January 18, 2015 Both Mind Charges had a use before though it's the SB one that still confuses me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
So-Called-Chaos Report post Posted January 18, 2015 I do agree with the idea of debilitate being usable now other than on wake up, Didn't really think about it that way XD sounds much better than what I said about it lol. It kinda seems like debilitate is an actual reversal now rather than some cheap wake up tactic opponents don't expect Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TastyPancakez Report post Posted January 20, 2015 Bufu still seems to be air unblockable. Saw A Bufu with the air unblockable sign in the Twitch footage. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Ninja Waker Report post Posted April 22, 2015 I saw in the video demonstrating the new changes and saw a combo involving Mamudoon. Can anyone breakdown how that was possible? :O Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RurouniLoneWolf Report post Posted April 22, 2015 Taken from the OP of the thread. You can find more detailed changes for Mahamaon and Mamudoon there as well if you're interested in learning more. Mahamaon / Mamudoon (All Versions) Decreased total recovery Does not disappear when Elizabeth blocks Persona will always appear on the ground Untechable time is no longer affected by proration Only causes a KO under certain conditions Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MegaBlues Report post Posted April 23, 2015 Both Mind Charges had a use before though it's the SB one that still confuses me. I believe the point of SB Mind Charge is having both low recovery and retaining Blue Health, though the lower HP to SP ratio isn't very favorable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ethralatheon Report post Posted April 23, 2015 How many times can one handed sword master buff be stocked so far from what i've seen is five anyone seen more? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elochai Report post Posted April 23, 2015 I believe the maximum is up to 9 times. Edit: Our good friend Setora confirms that the maximum amount of 2C stocks is 9. https://twitter.com/setora_favo/status/591065029077651456 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
firedraco Report post Posted May 25, 2015 I think this was already mentioned (?) but 2D got nerfed, the damge per tick remains the same but the number of ticks has been reduced...In my tests it seems like we lost about 1k ish damage per poison application. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites