[CPEX] Noel Vermillion Gameplay Discussion.

[LunaKage]

 

Welcome to the new Gameplay Discussion thread for Noel Vermillion.

 

Talk about CPEX Noel here.

[LunaKage]

Alright, so after watching a bunch of Noel videos, I figured I'd make an analysis of how I think she's doing in CPEX, and while I don't exactly think she's a strong character, my opinion of her is definitely looking up, compared to the last time I spoke of her.

 

Pressure:

While watching, I noticed something. I'm not sure if it's just because I'm so used to CP's pushback nerf, or if it's a legitimate change in CPEX, but it really felt like Noel wasn't getting pushed back as far while staggering Normals. If this is true, it means that we can start using normals again during pressure, instead of praying that our opponents let us go into drive.

 

Another note, is Optic Barrel's dash cancel buff. In CP, as well as CPEX, it was very possible to use 236A in pressure. This usually happened when we were facing an opponent who loved hammering on Barrier. Doing a drive string into d.5B > 236A was a thing that was really good at making sure we escaped safely. In CPEX, thanks to the dash cancel, it makes it possible to turn this "Escape from our own shitty character design pressure" into "oh, you hit barrier, now we're in your face, and at frame advantage". This is very good news. Another thing this allows us to do, is gain some ground after a midscreen j.236C > j.2C. It's very easy to use this as a setup for a meaty 236B, but now, we can 236B~66, which doesn't exactly give us a whole lot of advantage, but it at the very least gives meaty Optic Barrel a little more purpose than just praying for a cheese victory.

 

Combos:

Noel's combos got an interesting change in CPEX, there are quite a few routes to use, however, you can still just convert most of your confirms into CP1 routes and oki. While most JP Noels opted into ending all of their combos into Bloom Trigger(which I still insist is retarded), through theory fighting, and seeing a couple of R1's combos, I noticed that it's very possible to convert most combos into 22B oki.

 

You can achieve this like so:

In CP combos using d.5B > 236A > 665B, you now use d.5B > 236A~66 > 5A/2A > 5C

In CP combos using Bloom Trigger in the corner, now you just use Chamber Shot.

In CP combos using sj.C > j.D, you now use > j.C > j.4D

 

Now, I know these were reported before, but at the very least, I'm now 99% certain that her combos were in no way nerfed, just changed.

In CP, this combo:

4D > d.2D > d.6B > d.5C > d.5B > 236A > 665B > sj.C > j.D > d.6B > d.5C > d.6B > 22C~66 > 6C > 6B > 22B

I'm almost positive, you can use this combo in CPEX:

4D > d.2D > d.6B > d.5C > d.5B > 236A~66 > 2A > 5C > j.2C > j.4D > d.6B > d.5C > d.6B > 22C~66 > 6C > 6B > 22B

If that doesn't work due to 2A prorating the combo, I'm willing to bet that j.4D > d.5C > d.6A > d.5C > 22B will work instead

In CP, this combo in the corner:

d.6B > d.5C > d.6D > 236D > 5B > 5C > sj.C > j.D > d.5C > d.6A > d.5C > 22B > 2B > 6C(2) > 6B > 22

can 100% be done this way in CPEX

d.6B > d.5C > d.6D > 236C > 5B > 5C > j.2C > j.4D > d.5C > d.6A > d.5C > 22B > 2B > 6C(2) > 6B > 22

 

I have no reason to believe that CP's late combo Bloom Triggers can't be replaced by late combo chamber shots.

In CP, the corner combo:

4D > d.2D > d.6B > d.4D > 214D > 2C > 5C > sj.C > j.D > d.4D > d.2D > d.6B > 236D > 6C(2) > 6B > 22

Would instead be done like this in CPEX:

4D > d.2D > d.6B > d.4D > 214D > 2C > 5C > j.2C > j.4D > d.6B > d.5C > d.6B > 236C > 6C(2) > 6B > 22

 

Combining all this, with other possible optimal combos routes into oki, should make the adjustments about as painless as possible, since unlike most other games, our Drive fillers act almost exactly the same ways they did in CP.

[Arcus Diabolus]

Yea, I noticed similar things. Took me by surprise to find j.4D to be more flexible and turn to hit forward opponents rather than whiff. Not sure how useful it will be from neutral, but making a move that fatal counters a bit easier is a bit funny.

[Litherain-XIII]

j.4D no longer Fatals. it was stated as a nerf a while ago. Her new fatals are on 5D and d.6C unfortunately

[Arcus Diabolus]

j.4D no longer Fatals. it was stated as a nerf a while ago. Her new fatals are on 5D and d.6C unfortunately

Nevermind~! 

 

In any case, how on earth are we expected to land a counter with d.6C of all moves?

[Litherain-XIII]

Nevermind~! 

 

In any case, how on earth are we expected to land a counter with d.6C of all moves?

 Ill be happy to supply you with an example. Not saying this is the most effective way however it'll give you an idea of how.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6RR8VCioVSY&x-yt-cl=84503534&x-yt-ts=1421914688#t=342

[Arcus Diabolus]

 Ill be happy to supply you with an example. Not saying this is the most effective way however it'll give you an idea of how.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6RR8VCioVSY&x-yt-cl=84503534&x-yt-ts=1421914688#t=342

Kinda spooky. If she was any closer to that Jin, she would have been shown the sky route. Granted, if it lands, you have a ton of punishing power to use. 

[LunaKage]

5D and d.6C are probably the rarest moves to actually land on an opponent. As far as that goes, that is 100% a nerf. It's a buff for those two moves, sure, but only day 1 netplay scrubs are gonna actually get hit by CH 5D or d.6C on any consistent basis.

 

In all honesty, her Fatals were worthless in CP as well. No one was gonna get hit by j.4D as a CH, and when you hit 4D, the fatal combo was the same as the normal combo.

[Arcus Diabolus]

If I'm planning on a CH, its with 5B or 5C. Landing a fatal with Noel is becoming more and more of a "it happened by chance" sort of deal with each new version, much like in the video that was linked. 

[LunaKage]

Did some more theory fighting for combos. Due to j.4D replacing j.D, and due to j.D still working in the corner, I've come up with a few possible combos:

 

Corner:

5B > 6A > j.2C > j.4D > d.4D > d.2D > d.6B > 236C > 5B > 5C > sj.C > j.D > d.5C > d.6A > d.5C > 22

 

Noel in the corner:

5B > 6A > j.2C > j.4D > d.2D > d.5B > 214D(opponent is now in the corner that Noel started in) > 665B > 5C > sj.C > j.D > d.5C > d.6A > d.5C > 22

 

This one is reaching, but MAYBE: Corner

d.6B > d.5C > d.6D > 236C > 5B > 5C > j.2C > j.4D > 22B > 2B > 5C > sj.C > j.D > d.5C > d.6A > d.5C > 22

[LunaKage]

Double post, but screw it, I'm the mod here, I'll allow it.

 

Another good thing about j.4D replacing j.D in combos, is that thanks to the assist with the Optic Barrel changes, we get to do more stuff off of a j.D starter. Before, if we did a j.D starter, we would need to settle for a low damage confirm, or a corner carry combo, which also did low damage, but now, we can probably do something like this:

j.D > d.6A > d.5B > 236A~66 > 2A/5A > 5C > j.2C > j.4D > d.6B > d.5C > d.6B > 22C~66 > 6C > 6B > 22B

 

or for corner carry

j.D > d.6A > d.5B > 236A~66 > 2A/5A > 5C > j.2C > j.4D > d.5C > d.5B > 214D > 66C(2) > 6B > 22

[JDE]

Yo what's up guys? Luna Kage you already know of me from the DOA community, maybe some of you know me from there & SF community. I play offline mostly, but play online with friends too (but don't take online seriously). I wasn't really much into anime fighters. I'm not gonna lie, but something told me to maybe give it a shot. It was probably because I'm used to watching anime & then running into people who watch both anime AND play anime fighters, but would not talk about the games technically. Only ones that I knew of that would talk technically were you (Luna Kage), Nereus, Desjah Rei, & Booty Fetish Ken. And LuCky Lo0pz, but just a little back story. 

 

I'm here because I wanted to try this chick, Noel. I've been keeping an eye on her for a while & she's just the type of character that I look for: Likes to stay on top of you & annoy you, but can also make amends when needed to get back in. So any tips starting out? Pad or Stick? I'm aiming for PS4, but if I can, I'll grab it to PS3. This will be the only character that I'll play for the game. 

Nice to meet everybody! 

[LunaKage]

JUST DIG EM. Sup man.

 

This is definitely a good place to start if you're looking for Noel info. I'd recommend stick, but that's because I'm a stick player, you probably wont have a problem sticking with pad if you wanted to go that route as well, Noel's moveset isn't really the kind that would REQUIRE one or the other. So just whatever is more comfortable to you.

 

Some beginners tips:

- Get used to gatling combos, when in doubt, you can combo 5A > 5B > 5C > 236C, or 5A > 2A > 5B > 2B > 5C > 236C etc. So that's your very first combo to learn, it will be easy though.

- Once you get used to that, practice extending that combo in the corner with meter: 5A > 5B > 5C > 236C > Rapid > 665C > sj.C > j.D > d.6A > d.5C > 22

 

Those are good beginner combos that don't require a whole lot of execution or hitconfirming ability, but are still essential to playing her. Once you get those down you can start working on better combos for different situations.

 

Next make sure you can do combos off of your most basic tools for opening people up. Her 6B overhead and her Grab.

- Midscreen Grab > 214A > 5B > 5C > sj.C > j.D > d.6B > 22C~66 > 6C > 6B > 22B

- Midscreen 6B > 5D > d.5C > d.6C > d.6A > d.5B > 236A > 665B > sj.C > j.D > d.5C > d.6A > d.5C > 22B

- Corner Grab > 2B > 5C > sj.C > j.D > d.5D > d.6B > 236D > 6C(2) > 6B > 22

- Corner 6B > 5D > d.5C > d.6C > d.5C > d.6D > 236D > 5B > 5C > sj.C > j.D > d.5C > d.6A > d.5C > 22

 

First and foremost though, get used to how her drive works. Get used to the feel of it, the urgency and risk, and get used to what each move does when it hits on a grounded opponent, or on an airborne opponent.

 

Those are just Noel specifics, obviously you want to first get used to the movement, meter management etc.

[JDE]

JUST DIG EM. Sup man.

 

This is definitely a good place to start if you're looking for Noel info. I'd recommend stick, but that's because I'm a stick player, you probably wont have a problem sticking with pad if you wanted to go that route as well, Noel's moveset isn't really the kind that would REQUIRE one or the other. So just whatever is more comfortable to you.

 

Some beginners tips:

- Get used to gatling combos, when in doubt, you can combo 5A > 5B > 5C > 236C, or 5A > 2A > 5B > 2B > 5C > 236C etc. So that's your very first combo to learn, it will be easy though.

- Once you get used to that, practice extending that combo in the corner with meter: 5A > 5B > 5C > 236C > Rapid > 665C > sj.C > j.D > d.6A > d.5C > 22

 

Those are good beginner combos that don't require a whole lot of execution or hitconfirming ability, but are still essential to playing her. Once you get those down you can start working on better combos for different situations.

 

Next make sure you can do combos off of your most basic tools for opening people up. Her 6B overhead and her Grab.

- Midscreen Grab > 214A > 5B > 5C > sj.C > j.D > d.6B > 22C~66 > 6C > 6B > 22B

- Midscreen 6B > 5D > d.5C > d.6C > d.6A > d.5B > 236A > 665B > sj.C > j.D > d.5C > d.6A > d.5C > 22B

- Corner Grab > 2B > 5C > sj.C > j.D > d.5D > d.6B > 236D > 6C(2) > 6B > 22

- Corner 6B > 5D > d.5C > d.6C > d.5C > d.6D > 236D > 5B > 5C > sj.C > j.D > d.5C > d.6A > d.5C > 22

 

First and foremost though, get used to how her drive works. Get used to the feel of it, the urgency and risk, and get used to what each move does when it hits on a grounded opponent, or on an airborne opponent.

 

Those are just Noel specifics, obviously you want to first get used to the movement, meter management etc.

Oh I have no problem playing stick, man. Yeah, I can use pad as well. I just recent brought one, but I haven't modded it yet. Getting it modded to all 4 consoles, Qanba Q2 since it was the most affordable stick that I could find other than the Q4's. I didn't get the Q4 because I didn't have any PS3 games in mind at that specific time. It was just PS4, Xbox One, & 360. It was just DOA & SF (I don't play DOA on stick). I'm going to mod it at Final Round, so I'll get started there with training after my pools are done. 

I also have a YouTube playlist saved where I found a guide that was made.

Thanks man. I'll write all of this down in my Lab notebooks. 

[LunaKage]

No problem, if you ever wanna get some games in online let me know, I can help you lab it up on skype and such.

[JDE]

Word. Will do, man. 

[LunaKage]

So I did a really sick confirm tonight, I didn't even know it was possible, but I tried it on a whim, and me and my opponent got so hype that we couldn't even focus the rest of the match.

 

Basically, what happened was that I hit the sweet spot on screen during a d.5B combo, that sweet spot that makes the combo drop. Too close to the corner to use the midscreen combo, but too far away to convert into a corner combo. So here's what happened:

 

I hit a drive starter, I believe it was an air hit 2D.

2D > d.5A > d.6B > d.5C > d.5B > Reload > 5A > 5C > sj.C > j.D > d.2D > d.6B > 236D > 6C(2) > 6B > 22

 

I haven't tried to replicate it in training mode yet, but I'm willing to bet that it's possible to do this confirm in CPEX, just with the j.2C > j.4D replacement and such.

[Arcus Diabolus]

So I did a really sick confirm tonight, I didn't even know it was possible, but I tried it on a whim, and me and my opponent got so hype that we couldn't even focus the rest of the match.

 

Basically, what happened was that I hit the sweet spot on screen during a d.5B combo, that sweet spot that makes the combo drop. Too close to the corner to use the midscreen combo, but too far away to convert into a corner combo. So here's what happened:

 

I hit a drive starter, I believe it was an air hit 2D.

2D > d.5A > d.6B > d.5C > d.5B > Reload > 5A > 5C > sj.C > j.D > d.2D > d.6B > 236D > 6C(2) > 6B > 22

 

I haven't tried to replicate it in training mode yet, but I'm willing to bet that it's possible to do this confirm in CPEX, just with the j.2C > j.4D replacement and such.

No dashing after d.5B at all? Interesting. How much damage does that do, anyway? (Assuming you were able to replicate it)

[LunaKage]

I haven't checked just yet. Been busy with stuff.

[Litherain-XIII]

You can do it with or without dashing. It does 2.8K atm in 1.1. Its unknown how much it does if implemented in CPE. I checked it out a few days ago but failed to comment further about it. same reason as Luna ~ kinda busy with work and all.

[legacy49i]

I feel I must chime in.

 

1 - Damage = 2.9k.  ALMOST 3k.  It would really just depend on your starter.  I just used 6D for simplicity's sake.  Probably not a lot of variance, though.

2 - Also works in the corner.

3 - There is no such thing as a "sweet spot" where you can't finish the combo.

4 - I found way to block ID and return 6.4k with OD and still having full health.  It's strict timing, but possible.  Just wanted to throw that out there cuz I  found it interesting.

 

Video: http://youtu.be/ou17586xNG4

 

Edit:  I also found a way to get at that + prorate on Revolver Blast - 2C.  It's kinda dumb, and probably not really worth it, but it's a legit combo.

 

Video:  http://youtu.be/3-ojrR0Tbck

[LunaKage]

Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbglOw2dAv0&feature=youtu.be

 

3.3k off of 4D

3k off of 6D

2.8k off of air hit 2D

[legacy49i]

100 more damage if you don't use d.5A.  Why do you do that?  If you use the old CT style Drive links of 6D - d.6B - d.5C - d.6B - d.5B... (finish combo) you get better results.  It's easier, you get more Heat, and more damage.

[Litherain-XIII]

simple answer: d.5A corrects any fuck ups on a 2D attempt that alters the hit outcome afterwards on an airborne opponent. in some cases 2D > d.6B will whiff on some characters. its a  combo drop safe variation basically.

[legacy49i]

Does it give any benefits to other Drive starters?

 

Edit:  I realize that its speed is a benefit as a human opponent has a harder time seeing wtf is going on in a Drive mix-up, but aside from that, will it do anything good?