Core Skills That Every Great Player Has Mastered

[Graque]

Obviously the world isn't set in stone. We don't live on Sesame Street where everything is fair or FMA where equivalence is something tangible. Anyone who tells you that you can absolutely do anything is just sugarcoating shit. Hell, chances are you won't get anywhere with what you're doing. But if you let thoughts like that stop you then you're just a wimp, and that right there is a question of attitude-not ability-that is keeping you from making your own path.

 

Awesome quote.  That's the real challenge here, to acknowledge that life isn't fair---that people do come with different natural abilities and weaknesses.  Yet on the other hand you can't let that stop you, or use that as an excuse.  I think that's why people here are looking at things so black-and-white.  Some of the people here are thinking of the science, which tells you that genetics has a crucial role in everything you are, the way your nerves are wired, your brain, etc.  Others (like Hollysmoke) are thinking of the mindset required, that when it comes to getting good you can't start thinking about genetics, which is also true.

 

You're right man, genetics trump all and everyone else is just wasting their time playing these games, we should just give up. =/

 

It's not all-or-none, I think you need both some genetic ability and lots of practice/dedication.  And it's mostly practice.  But someone else mentioned it before, not everyone will improve at the same rate.  I think a talented person could get to a skill level in 1500 hours, while the average person might take 1800 hours to reach the same level (assuming both are practicing similarly).  Unless you take extreme cases (e.g. someone with Down's syndrome) the influence will be subtle.

 

Other than through twin studies, I thought this would be intuitive from being in school.  Anyone could do well by studying hard, but some people pick stuff up quicker than others.  For instance, I was always good at math and bad at languages.  Now I'm trying to learn Chinese, and it's really painful lol.  But I'm not going to give up---eventually I will get it to a workable level.

[Graque]

I watched a guy with a disability body people in Street Fighter using his mouth . Genetics had nothing to do with it. You can have the best hand eye coordination in the world and get blown up all day by someone more skilled. If this where perhaps sports I could maybe see your point, but video games? Not buying it sorry.

 

You're probably talking about Brolylegs, who was born with arthrogryposis.  He's an awesome player who literally has to play with his face because he can't use his hands.  To me that's just proof that genetics can matter.  Because of his condition, he had to overcome challenges that no one else had.  For instance, he plays Chun Li, because she was the character he could control best with his handicap (I think he couldn't do the shoryuken motion well).  Brolylegs deserves more credit for being a great player despite all that.  I don't see how anyone could deny that not having working hands is a huge disadvantage.

 

 

There are plenty of people who think they can coast on natural talent and go places. They never do.

 

I wonder if Luffy is an example of this.  He started playing fighting games with SF4, and he won his first tournament after only playing a few months.  And of course he won the last Evo.  Maybe you think Rose is overpowered (I don't), but still he's one of the world's best SF4 players.  So to me he's obviously someone with tons of natural ability, who was able to catch up with extremely dedicated world-class players who have been playing fighting games for twice as long or more.

 

But recently he said he only plays SF4 a few hours a week now, and he mentioned his job, family life, etc.  He may be talented, but it doesn't surprise me that recently he's been losing more to top players.  Momochi and Daigo practice like 8+ hours a day---no one who plays 3 hours a week can compete with that.

[Eshi]

That is what I was referring to mainly when I mentioned genetics...not sure how people can deny that it exists and that it is relevant.

Because that's not genetics. Brains develop and adapt over time as necessary, even at adult ages. Genes don't. Anyone can become a chess master by dedicating enough time to it, albeit the amount of time required changes per person. The same principle applies to pretty much anything barring people with severe disorders.

 

Nobody is born with a brain that rewards the thoughts processes behind fighting games. It's something that develops over time. 

[Tong]

For anyone still curious about the "Reaction Speed and Reflexes" subject should give this a read:

http://kayin.moe/?p=2047

It clears up many misconceptions about the matter, specially about reactions differing greatly between each person and being an inherent thing. And guess what it's one of the things that can be trained and improved!

"It’s not about being about to perceive and react to everything, it’s about being able to simplify the problem and removing the clutter from your brain that slows down your actions. It’s experience that holds you back more so than your inherent abilities."

[rubedo777]

You're right man, genetics trump all and everyone else is just wasting their time playing these games, we should just give up. =/

 

Some players can still achieve great things even when everything is stacked against them (genetics, environment, etc) but that doesn't mean genetics/natural talent don't play a part

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

It's not all-or-none, I think you need both some genetic ability and lots of practice/dedication.  And it's mostly practice.  But someone else mentioned it before, not everyone will improve at the same rate.  I think a talented person could get to a skill level in 1500 hours, while the average person might take 1800 hours to reach the same level (assuming both are practicing similarly).  Unless you take extreme cases (e.g. someone with Down's syndrome) the influence will be subtle.

 

Other than through twin studies, I thought this would be intuitive from being in school.  Anyone could do well by studying hard, but some people pick stuff up quicker than others.  For instance, I was always good at math and bad at languages.  Now I'm trying to learn Chinese, and it's really painful lol.  But I'm not going to give up---eventually I will get it to a workable level.

 

I was being sarcastic. I really do understand this perspective, it's just ultimately useless when you consider that this is supposed to be a forum where people go to try and improve in fighting games. It makes no sense to put so much focus on aspects which you have no control over, which is why I get sick and tired of people continually bringing it up. The original topic was "core skills that every great player has mastered", so what is the point of repeatedly bringing up talent?

 

It's guys like this rubedo777 dude who like to repeatedly bring up stupid shit like "being Japanese > anything else", that exemplify this type of useless thinking. It has nothing to do with "being realistic" or everyone not being a "shounen manga protagonist". It's just more excuses and leads to self-imposed mediocrity and idol worship of top level players.

 

Now, I don't come down on the side of the "you can do anything if you just believe!!!" crowd. There is a real value to understanding yourself and how you learn things in contrast to what skills a particular activity demands of you, but this is purely a personal exercise, and comparing yourself to other players, outside of trying to learn from their example, is largely pointless. The main point, in the end, is that fighting games are far, far more "democratic" of an activity than many other competitive sports where this talent/effort argument exists. I'm 32 years old, clinically obese, and very much out of shape. The idea of me being a professional American football player, for example, would be a pipe dream, and I'm fully aware of that. I could quit everything and push all my focus towards that goal starting today, and even with the best diet and training regimen, even if I were to beat myself into the best physical condition possible, and even if I were to put all of my time and effort towards learning as much as possible about how to play football, the chances of me making it in the pros would be extremely small. But fighting games are not fucking football! All you really need is a working pair of hands (not even that, as cases have shown), a functioning brain, and the desire and opportunity to learn and improve. It may not happen overnight, it may not happen in even a few years, but it is far, far more attainable than most of these talent/genetics pushers would like people to believe.

 

My own personal experience is really all I need to affirm this viewpoint. I grew up with a competitive mindset, but during the days when I would play other people in the arcades as a kid, I don't think anyone would have said that I was particularly talented as a player. I entered my first tournament in 2001, and while I secured a top 3 placing, it was in a game no one was really playing at the time (GGX). Over the years, as GG got more popular, my performance in tournaments dropped, and I was forced to put real effort into improving. By 2010 I was a known competitive player, albeit not the best, but good enough to place well at majors. Fast forward to 2014, and after a 4 year hiatus from traveling, I win my first major. Progress is progress, even if the speed it moves at is pretty glacial.

[StylisH]

You're probably talking about Brolylegs, who was born with arthrogryposis.  He's an awesome player who literally has to play with his face because he can't use his hands.  To me that's just proof that genetics can matter.  Because of his condition, he had to overcome challenges that no one else had.  For instance, he plays Chun Li, because she was the character he could control best with his handicap (I think he couldn't do the shoryuken motion well).  Brolylegs deserves more credit for being a great player despite all that.  I don't see how anyone could deny that not having working hands is a huge disadvantage.

 

 

 

Forgive me for seeming ignorant, but I'm not seeing where using your mouth to play a video game pertains to genetics, unless somehow one or more of his parents did?  I'm just saying to me it seems more like determination and learning to use different tools in order to play (and win), which has very little to do with his genetic makeup.  

 

As it stands, genetics are physical traits, not (proven yet to be) mental or emotional.  You can be the smartest person in the world and your kid could be a complete dumbass.  I'm just not buying into genetic ability, especially when there's no proof due to none of these guys having parents playing on the scene.

[rubedo777]

Forgive me for seeming ignorant, but I'm not seeing where using your mouth to play a video game pertains to genetics, unless somehow one or more of his parents did?  I'm just saying to me it seems more like determination and learning to use different tools in order to play (and win), which has very little to do with his genetic makeup.  

 

As it stands, genetics are physical traits, not (proven yet to be) mental or emotional.  You can be the smartest person in the world and your kid could be a complete dumbass.  I'm just not buying into genetic ability, especially when there's no proof due to none of these guys having parents playing on the scene.

 

I think he was saying that BrolyLegs' superior genetics(genetics relating to the mind mainly) allowed him to bypass his handicap and still be very good.

 

I'm not sure if I agree with his genetics being the reason in this case but I think that's what he was trying to say

[StylisH]

I think he was saying that BrolyLegs' superior genetics(genetics relating to the mind mainly) allowed him to bypass his handicap and still be very good.

 

I'm not sure if I agree with his genetics being the reason in this case but I think that's what he was trying to say

 

I get what he was saying, but that still doesn't......wait why the hell are we discussing genetic traits when the topic is about core skills that every great player has mastered?!

[Hollysmoke]

-Snip-

I think I posted earlier that it comes down to realistic goals and achievements. I wouldn't expect you to become a "Pro NFL player" like you mentioned, just as I wouldn't expect myself to become EVO champion at my first time showing, but I can aim for Top 8 and you could aim for a reasonably healthier lifestyle. The point, I feel a lot of people are missing, is the idea of progression. People get stuck at a particular point of progress and instead of trying to stop and figure out why, they just accept it. There is no magic bullet that will shoot you to the top, you gotta take it step by step and just see how far you push yourself.

[ehuangsan]

As someone who has reached high amateur/near pro level in various games outside of the fighting game space, I will say this:

 

Talent only matters once you have reached a level where you can actually give the very top players a hard time, and lose at about a 2-8 or 3-7 ratio.

At the very top level, everyone is working hard and everyone is studying the in and outs of the game, so hard work and study by themselves will not cut it anymore and people start to pull away from each other at the top levels from talent alone. At that point, you will be good enough to recognize the difference between those who got there from hard work and study and limited talent, and those who are actually geniuses at the game as well as the differences between yourself and the top and whether you actually have the talent to climb that difference.

 

However, before you make it to that level there is no excuse. I am of the belief that everyone can become at least master level (Ama-shodan, 2000 ELO equivalent) through hard work and study alone, even with zero talent.

[bluzenblazen]

Oh, so I was doomed by genetics to get hit by that greed sever? Thank god it wasn't really my fault for not reacting quickly enough to an animation in a video game. My dad never blocked those either.

[Hollysmoke]

Oh, so I was doomed by genetics to get hit by that greed sever? Thank god it wasn't really my fault for not reacting quickly enough to an animation in a video game. My dad never blocked those either.

I was born with spatulas for hands. You know how clanky those Z-motions are? D;

[StylisH]

Oh, so I was doomed by genetics to get hit by that greed sever? Thank god it wasn't really my fault for not reacting quickly enough to an animation in a video game. My dad never blocked those either.

 

Rainbow overheads too strong......

[BloodWolF]

Now, I don't come down on the side of the "you can do anything if you just believe!!!" crowd.

 

 

I don't think anyone here believes this on an absolute level. You becoming a Pro football player is probably a near impossibility due to it being a contest controlled by people and you're too old (no offense) regardless of physical ability vs the younger college crowd. It would be like training hard to compete in Women's Volleyball as a man.

I'd like to rephrase what I said earlier because after re-reading it, it could be taken in a way that seems like this "just believe!" idea. That is not what I meant to say, and I didn't intend to set up an opposing side to fuel this fire (though it's been pretty fun to read). What I was intending to address was the fact that people give up before they try because they possess this idea that they're genetics will keep them from succeeding. It ends up in most cases that this mindset is what really keeps them back from doing something they could otherwise be quite successful at. There will always be people that can do things better than others, but that isn't a reason to make excuses and quit...especially in something that you enjoy.  Will any amount of studying turn you into Isaac Newton and lead you to invent the next Calculus? Can you be a pro football player at 32 and living an unhealthy lifestyle? Probably not. There are always impossibilities in the world, but giving up before you try will just leave you useless and miserable.

 

This thread was created to talk about what skilled players COULD do. I think that since it's just a video game, most people can become a skilled player. So what skills should be mastered for that step to be taken.

 

P.S. This whole discussion/argument reminds me of an exchange I witnessed during my days in college. I was in my Advanced Calculus class and one of the students asked the professor how often he has students smarter than him. This was right after a very lengthy and elaborate proof. My professor just looked at him and casually said "All the time." The student looked at him kind of confused and asked "Well, how do you deal with that?" He just smiled and said "I just know more than they do."

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

 

I don't think anyone here believes this on an absolute level. You becoming a Pro football player is probably a near impossibility due to it being a contest controlled by people and you're too old (no offense) regardless of physical ability vs the younger college crowd. It would be like training hard to compete in Women's Volleyball as a man.

 

 

 Oh believe me, I get it. It's just the easiest example I could think of. A more realistic example would be, say, table tennis, another hobby I was briefly into. I did a fair bit of research and practice into it, and while I got much better over a short period of time, the physical requirements to be truly good were a bit beyond me, and it was much more time consuming that fighting games, even without doing a lot of physical conditioning, which would have been a requirement if I desired to get much better at it. Even then, there would be players whose physique and training would have made it much harder for me to compete against them. That's a much better example of talent and genetics interfering with one's ability to be competitive in an activity than fighting games, IMO. Though interestingly enough, my experience in playing fighters allowed me to adapt my approach to beat players who were in better physical shape and had been playing TT longer, simply by applying strategic concepts of pattern recognition and conditioning.

[Hollysmoke]

I actually found this thread to be quite inspiring, in a way. A lot of veterans have come and posted the years they've been practicing and as someone who just started recently to get into GG at a competitive level, it feels good to know there's a long term goal of self-improvement.

[Destin]

I don't believe in this genetic shit when it comes to most of these mental activities. There are differences in people, but the standard deviation is so low... I almost always see EFFICIENT effort to improve being the number 1, no questions asked, important trait.

[NecroTheReaper]

How long before we start getting into gaming pedigrees? I'm gonna laugh if we're gonna have purebred FG players some day because of this. Weren't we givin the person something to work with and not to be born with?

[Nobus3r1]

How long before we start getting into gaming pedigrees? I'm gonna laugh if we're gonna have purebred FG players some day because of this. Weren't we givin the person something to work with and not to be born with?

Well based on age and relationship status wouldn't the test case for this be whether or not Sakonoko's kid(s) are as godlike at fighting games as he is?

[Graque]

Forgive me for seeming ignorant, but I'm not seeing where using your mouth to play a video game pertains to genetics, unless somehow one or more of his parents did?  I'm just saying to me it seems more like determination and learning to use different tools in order to play (and win), which has very little to do with his genetic makeup.  

 

Sorry, I kinda meant the opposite but didn't phrase it very well.  I thought people were saying that everyone starts on a "level playing field" and the only thing that matters is your training/dedication.  (It turns out people weren't really saying that though.)  Anyway, since someone brought up Brolylegs, I was just mentioning that you could see him as a counterexample to that---he definitely started with a huge execution disadvantage compared to the average player.  (I assumed his condition, arthrogryposis, was a genetic disease, but after reading wikipedia it seems it may or may not be, but either way he was born with it, and it's not something that he can fix by hard work.)  So for him the playing field couldn't have looked very fair.   How was he able to overcome it?  Was it genetics or hard work?  Who can say, I have no idea about his particular case.

 

I know I've kinda been posting on the genetics side, since I do think it's significant, but here's a great summary article written by the psychologist who right now is leading the other side of the debate: Anders Ericsson.

http://drjj5hc4fteph.cloudfront.net/Articles/2007%20IJSP%20-%20Ericsson%20-%20Deliberate%20Practice%20target%20art.pdf

He basically argues that it's all about practice, not genetics, and he identifies the kind of practice that is most efficient for mastering skills.  He also talks about the development of reaction speed.  It's a dense read because it's written for other psychologists or sports trainers, not gamers, but it's totally applicable to fighting games.  IMHO could be very helpful whether or not you believe genetics matters at all.

[Renegade]

There is a level of play in which more practice/experience will not get you over.

However, almost no one is at this level.

People learn/adapt at different speeds, and that's a "talent" too. Think of players that are really good when a game first drops, and then fall off as the game ages.


However the "Scrub barrier" is a real thing. You can grind out your combos, setups, and matchups, but just lose sometimes to someone who is just better.


The primary "Skill" in top level players is seeing and planning multiple steps ahead for your moves AND your opponents.  

 

A newer player might think "When my opponent throws a fireball, I'm going to jump and punish" Not only is that single level thinking, it is also based entirely on your reaction time, and any over-anticipation may get you killed.

A veteran player will set up a situation (distance, move sequence, meter, life lead) that will MAKE the other player throw that fireball, or do XX action they want. Then they apply the appropriate counter.  That's why knockdowns are so important in games, because they give your opponent a slight second to think about committing an action that could be a tremendous mistake.

 

[TheRealBobMan]

I know I've kinda been posting on the genetics side, since I do think it's significant, but here's a great summary article written by the psychologist who right now is leading the other side of the debate: Anders Ericsson. http://drjj5hc4fteph... target art.pdf He basically argues that it's all about practice, not genetics, and he identifies the kind of practice that is most efficient for mastering skills. He also talks about the development of reaction speed. It's a dense read because it's written for other psychologists or sports trainers, not gamers, but it's totally applicable to fighting games. IMHO could be very helpful whether or not you believe genetics matters at all.

 

 

Oh sweet.  I love reading this kind of thing.  Thanks for the post!