Core Skills That Every Great Player Has Mastered

[Graque]

The following traits are all very important, but I believe they go in this order;

Effort > Opportunity to learn and willingness > born talent > time.

I think this is true, or at least close.

 

Talent can matter though---it's not just for NFL players.  Here's a report about a recent study that I found very interesting: http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21606259-musical-ability-dna-practice-may-not-make-perfect TLDR version: based on twin studies, it appears that certain musical skills (including recognizing rhythm) are genetic and not teachable, even after years of practice.  If that's true of music, it's probably true of fighting games, because it's so important to notice other players' rhythm.

 

True, effort is still more important.  But if you want to be top 8 at Evo or whatever, you probably need a decent talent level, plus, of course, thousands of hours of dedication.

 

 

 

 

 

[Hollysmoke]

The example that was being cited was with regards to youth leagues and age cutoffs.  Basically if you where the oldest kid in your year you where going to be more advanced physically than your younger peers and as such where likely to be given more attention by coaching staffs with that advantage being cumulative over the course of the many levels that youth leagues offer.  It was also shown that hockey and baseball tend to aggregate towards a percentage of players that are left-handed that's significantly higher than the left-handed representation in the general population (football and basketball not as much).  It's also a function of where one is born (as in the Japanese advantage with regards to living in a country with a still active arcade scene) because with hockey in Canada or Soccer in many countries if you show even a modicum of talent people will, due to the athletic focus of the country being largely singular in nature, find you.

I get the point he was making. Don't worry.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I think this is true, or at least close.

 

Talent can matter though---it's not just for NFL players.  Here's a report about a recent study that I found very interesting: http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21606259-musical-ability-dna-practice-may-not-make-perfect TLDR version: based on twin studies, it appears that certain musical skills (including recognizing rhythm) are genetic and not teachable, even after years of practice.  If that's true of music, it's probably true of fighting games, because it's so important to notice other players' rhythm.

 

True, effort is still more important.  But if you want to be top 8 at Evo or whatever, you probably need a decent talent level, plus, of course, thousands of hours of dedication.

 

Did you read the comment section on that article? I didn't see a single positive or affirmative comment on the subject, and some other interesting points were brought up about how the aspects being tested had little to nothing to do with actual musical ability.

 

I don't like it when people keep flogging this point of 'talent'. All you're doing is creating an excuse for players to use when they don't want to put the effort into getting better. Someone who believes that they are not 'talented' will never be able to attain their maximum potential, at least not without some other extremely strong source of motivation. It just feels like such a useless exercise to keep examining the concept of talent.

[Graque]

Did you read the comment section on that article? I didn't see a single positive or affirmative comment on the subject, and some other interesting points were brought up about how the aspects being tested had little to nothing to do with actual musical ability.

 

I don't like it when people keep flogging this point of 'talent'. All you're doing is creating an excuse for players to use when they don't want to put the effort into getting better. Someone who believes that they are not 'talented' will never be able to attain their maximum potential, at least not without some other extremely strong source of motivation. It just feels like such a useless exercise to keep examining the concept of talent.

I didn't, but I took a look now.  The only one that worried me was that the article did not exist, but it seems it does and the abstract was correctly conveyed by the Economist (and other publications that reported the study).  See for instance http://pss.sagepub.com/content/25/9/1795 and http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/2014/07/30/0956797614541990.abstract.  Most of the other posts seem to be trashing the study based on ignorance (e.g. the first post claims that the first years of music are based on motor skills, not aural ability, when the first paragraph of the article mentions that the study covered participants who had up to 20,000 hours of music practice, which is well more than a few years).

 

Anyway, it would be equally ignorant of me to support the study as being great, because I also have not read the study. And at any rate I'm not a cognitive psychologist.  But what I do know is psychologists have been examining nature vs nurture debate for quite a while (using e.g. identical twin studies) and there is body of literature that suggests that, in many areas, achievement partially depends on talent, not just practice.

 

Something like this has to be true...  It's obvious that not every human has what it takes to be an NFL lineman.  So why think that every human has what it takes to be, say, a world-class singer?  Singing ability is less obvious than body size, but both are determined partially by genetics.  A chimpanzee, even if well motivated and raised by loving human parents, obviously just doesn't have the genetics to be a good singer.

 

 

I don't like it when people keep flogging this point of 'talent'. All you're doing is creating an excuse for players to use when they don't want to put the effort into getting better. Someone who believes that they are not 'talented' will never be able to attain their maximum potential, at least not without some other extremely strong source of motivation. It just feels like such a useless exercise to keep examining the concept of talent.

True, if you want to succeed at something you need to try hard---thinking about talent won't help you at all.  And also I agree that practice is more important than talent.  So for fighting games, it may not matter other than theoretically.

 

But, for instance, it matters to me as a parent.  It's a tricky balance, but I'd like to encourage my kids to do things that they are both "talented" at and have a passion for.  (Of course, I would never tell them that they're good at something because they're talented, I would just say they worked really hard lol.)

[Hollysmoke]

-Snip-

You can become a good singer or football player if you spend hours upon hours of developing motor skills and muscular development. Singers utilize their vocal chords and you'll always see them doing exercises to develop them. You'll hear stories of famous pop singers and how they've been singing literally since their whole childhood and beyond. Genetic inclination towards a particular development such as physical activities or creative activities is something someone will do naturally, and they themselves have to nurture and develop those skills. Anybody can become a football player by developing their physicality, but that physicality may be better suited towards running if its a slim, small figure. How does this tie into Guilty Gear? Some people have different play styles they'll develop and play a character accordingly. Someone who knows how to play smart but doesn't have very good execution may pick up a character such as Sol or Ky to play, people who play more defensively may pick up Ky, while more aggressive/offensive players players may pick Millia or Chipp. Whatever. Point is, the argument for genetics is a moot point because everybody thinks differently, everyone plays differently, and there's a reasonably varied pool of characters you can choose to make your own. You practice out whatever. All these posts about talent being natural or genetics are moot for this discussion. Pick a character that suits your personal preferences, and grind it out. All these posts about being "naturally good" or whatever are just excuses to not work hard to master the game. I spent weeks struggling through Venom's challenge because I really wanted to learn him. I'm not the best GG player out there, but I really want to learn Venom so I just keep grinding it out, figuring out muscle memory for charge moves, etc. Has nothing to do with genetic disposition, just good ol' elbow grease and motivation.

[redsilversnake]

Not everyone is a damn shounen manga protagonist. Some people will never get as good as others no matter how much effort they put in. It's not just the work you put in or how much motivation you have; there are numerous variables that come together, some of which will hinder or help you regardless of how hard you try.

[D.R.F.]

Not everyone is a damn shounen manga protagonist.

Lol

[MechaBaphomet]

This discussion got real dumb real fast. All the people who think "talent" is so cut and dry I guess have never spent years developing a difficult skill. Talent is a word that parents use to describe a 10 year old that can play "Smoke on the Water" on the guitar. The natural aptitude of a person towards a skill, only really applies when you are first picking up that said skill. I picked up drums pretty fast compared to other people, partly because of my natural aptitude to music, and mostly because I spent 6 hours a day, EVERY DAY, for years developing my skills. No one is born a god at any skill. Some people are born with an aptitude for that skill that helps them learn it. Don't bring genetics into a discussion about being good at a video game. If you don't work hard on something you will never be good. As a musician, this is beyond insulting.

[StylisH]

I hate to state the obvious (and most important) thing of all.  The first step is to learn how to block.  That's not a joke.  I see tournament players all the time who refuse to want to block, and the whole time I cringe while thinking "why?"

[rubedo777]

This discussion got real dumb real fast. All the people who think "talent" is so cut and dry I guess have never spent years developing a difficult skill. Talent is a word that parents use to describe a 10 year old that can play "Smoke on the Water" on the guitar. The natural aptitude of a person towards a skill, only really applies when you are first picking up that said skill. I picked up drums pretty fast compared to other people, partly because of my natural aptitude to music, and mostly because I spent 6 hours a day, EVERY DAY, for years developing my skills. No one is born a god at any skill. Some people are born with an aptitude for that skill that helps them learn it. Don't bring genetics into a discussion about being good at a video game. If you don't work hard on something you will never be good. As a musician, this is beyond insulting.

 

Yeah genetics don't exist.................

[StylisH]

Yeah genetics don't exist.................

 

They exist.  They're simply irrelevant to fighting game skill.

[Hollysmoke]

They exist.  They're simply irrelevant to fighting game skill.

This. So much this.

[Destin]

I hate to state the obvious (and most important) thing of all. The first step is to learn how to block. That's not a joke. I see tournament players all the time who refuse to want to block, and the whole time I cringe while thinking "why?"

Blocking in gg can be scary

[StylisH]

Blocking in gg can be scary

 

Getting hit is worse

[rubedo777]

They exist.  They're simply irrelevant to fighting game skill.

 

They're very relevant...they are relevant to almost anything.

 

Some people are just trying to be idealistic...spreading the "you can do anything if you put your mind to it". It's wishful, encouraging thinking, but it's not realistic.

 

Some players can still achieve great things even when everything is stacked against them (genetics, environment, etc) but that doesn't mean genetics/natural talent don't play a part...some people will never get on the level of Daigo, Kazunoko, etc, no matter how many hours they put into the game, even if they are playing in the Japanese arcades everyday.

[Hollysmoke]

They're very relevant...they are relevant to almost anything.

 

Some people are just trying to be idealistic...spreading the "you can do anything if you put your mind to it". It's wishful, encouraging thinking, but it's not realistic.

 

Some players can still achieve great things even when everything is stacked against them (genetics, environment, etc) but that doesn't mean genetics/natural talent don't play a part...some people will never get on the level of Daigo, Kazunoko, etc, no matter how many hours they put into the game, even if they are playing in the Japanese arcades everyday.

Those players are also players who have been beaten by new up-and-comers because they've been practicing just as hard as the veterans did to reach the level of play they are at. It's not a matter of promoting "boundless creativity in the field of music", it's a video game bound by a set of rules. You learn the rules, you play within that rule set. Learning frame data? Part of the rules of the game. For example, X attack will do Y damage with so and so start up frames and recovery frames. This is the rule. It will never change. You learn the rules, you practice your execution, and lastly you figure out strategy. You manipulate the rules to your playstyle; it's no different than chess. Everyone knows how to play Chess, right? Do you know how to play it WELL? There are tons of strategies to utilize in different scenarios that you learn from either experience, someone else teaching you, or reading one of those gorjillion-page long Chess strategy books you see at the library. Genetics may help you learn faster or develop reflexes easier but it's your attitude towards learning that's going to kneecap you. Players like Daigo have been going to the arcade to practice SF since I was in HIGH SCHOOL. "Natural talent" will not teach you the rules to the game. This discussion is the equivalent of fat people saying "NYYAAAGGGHH I CAN'T LOSE WEIGHT ITS IMPOSSIBLE". No. Energy in, energy out. You work off more energy than you're putting in, you lose weight. Stop making up excuses for it. If a potato like me can learn how to play I-No (literally just hours of practice and advice from friends I've made on this board), you can learn to not suck and master the game. Ever since I was a child, I wanted to do something related to music. Ever since I was a teenager, I wanted to learn how to make video games. Ever since I was a college student, I wanted to learn Guilty Gear. Literally all just hours and hours of hard work and positive attitude. My next goal is to make a strong showing at EVO next year. This is Guilty Gear, not the freakin' Gattaca Corporation.

Stop bringing up genetics in this thread please. It's literally irrelevant.

[StylisH]

They're very relevant...they are relevant to almost anything.

 

Some people are just trying to be idealistic...spreading the "you can do anything if you put your mind to it". It's wishful, encouraging thinking, but it's not realistic.

 

Some players can still achieve great things even when everything is stacked against them (genetics, environment, etc) but that doesn't mean genetics/natural talent don't play a part...some people will never get on the level of Daigo, Kazunoko, etc, no matter how many hours they put into the game, even if they are playing in the Japanese arcades everyday.

I watched a guy with a disability body people in Street Fighter using his mouth . Genetics had nothing to do with it. You can have the best hand eye coordination in the world and get blown up all day by someone more skilled. If this where perhaps sports I could maybe see your point, but video games? Not buying it sorry.

[Qu_Ane]

Master the art of the Blind Side. It doesn't really matter whether you can or can't do it (as you've seen here, that argument can go on forever), what matters is that there is hope in effort.

 

Obviously the world isn't set in stone. We don't live on Sesame Street where everything is fair or FMA where equivalence is something tangible. Anyone who tells you that you can absolutely do anything is just sugarcoating shit. Hell, chances are you won't get anywhere with what you're doing. But if you let thoughts like that stop you then you're just a wimp, and that right there is a question of attitude-not ability-that is keeping you from making your own path.

 

My dad has six degrees, one of them being a Doctorate, and he hasn't been able to find a job in months because of various bullshit I won't go into. I spent most of my school life seeing him holed up in his room studying. Right now he's got nothing to show for the time he's put in. He also wouldn't tell you to give up, but he sure as hell won't sugarcoat shit. The world isn't fair, why the heck do you expect a fighting game (keyword: FIGHT) to be fair? No one's abilities are equal, plain and simple. If they were, everyone would get Draws all day.

 

Fighting games are take it or leave it, hate it or love it. Why do you think devs are still making these? Because it's nice and you'll get everything you want? No, because it's competitive and they could give a shit less whether you whine or cry.

 

Fuck excuses. Fuck genetics. Fuck the time people put in. Fuck footsies and fuck the door you can walk out of if you don't agree. Someone wins because they put up a fight and you did something wrong. Plain and simple.

[StylisH]

Master the art of the Blind Side. It doesn't really matter whether you can or can't do it (as you've seen here, that argument can go on forever), what matters is that there is hope in effort.

 

Obviously the world isn't set in stone. We don't live on Sesame Street where everything is fair or FMA where equivalence is something tangible. Anyone who tells you that you can absolutely do anything is just sugarcoating shit. Hell, chances are you won't get anywhere with what you're doing. But if you let thoughts like that stop you then you're just a wimp, and that right there is a question of attitude-not ability-that is keeping you from making your own path.

 

My dad has six degrees, one of them being a Doctorate, and he hasn't been able to find a job in months because of various bullshit I won't go into. I spent most of my school life seeing him holed up in his room studying. Right now he's got nothing to show for the time he's put in. He also wouldn't tell you to give up, but he sure as hell won't sugarcoat shit. The world isn't fair, why the heck do you expect a fighting game (keyword: FIGHT) to be fair? No one's abilities are equal, plain and simple. If they were, everyone would get Draws all day.

 

Fighting games are take it or leave it, hate it or love it. Why do you think devs are still making these? Because it's nice and you'll get everything you want? No, because it's competitive and they could give a shit less whether you whine or cry.

 

Fuck excuses. Fuck genetics. Fuck the time people put in. Fuck footsies and fuck the door you can walk out of if you don't agree. Someone wins because they put up a fight and you did something wrong. Plain and simple.

Well this was an interesting read. That's one way of looking at it I guess.

[windhelmsquall]

They're very relevant...they are relevant to almost anything.

Some people are just trying to be idealistic...spreading the "you can do anything if you put your mind to it". It's wishful, encouraging thinking, but it's not realistic.

Some players can still achieve great things even when everything is stacked against them (genetics, environment, etc) but that doesn't mean genetics/natural talent don't play a part...some people will never get on the level of Daigo, Kazunoko, etc, no matter how many hours they put into the game, even if they are playing in the Japanese arcades everyday.

I can respect that to a degree, but talent has never been the say all end all decider of fate. If it was, there wouldn't be such a thing as improvement.

There are plenty of people who think they can coast on natural talent and go places. They never do.

Not to mention we all share a common trait of being human. No matter how good you are at something, you will still F it up from time to time.

When you do, just hope the other guy doesn't blow you up for it.

[redsilversnake]

The thing is, high level players aren't as good as they are just because they spent a lot of time playing matches and practicing, but because of how they learn the game and how they apply what they learn. Basically, they've wrapped their heads around whatever game they play better than most other players, who typically aren't able to think about it the same way these high level players do. You can practice your execution and your character's setups all you like, but if you don't learn and apply more the more abstract aspects top players think about in every match they play, then you're simply not going to reach that level.

So, rather than genetics per se, it's probably more how your brain is wired. A lot of people just don't have the consistent focus or thought processes necessary to catch up to skilled players.

[rubedo777]

 

So, rather than genetics per se, it's probably more how your brain is wired. A lot of people just don't have the consistent focus or thought processes necessary to catch up to skilled players.

 

That is what I was referring to mainly when I mentioned genetics...not sure how people can deny that it exists and that it is relevant.

[Destin]

Getting hit is worse

Luckily guilty gear has many options besides simply blocking.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

That is what I was referring to mainly when I mentioned genetics...not sure how people can deny that it exists and that it is relevant.

 

You're right man, genetics trump all and everyone else is just wasting their time playing these games, we should just give up. =/

[Soudabuki]

Not mashing on wake-up