do you think the gg community would be bigger with rollback netcode?

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Guilty_X: It's the views of players like you which push away people who might otherwise give GG a fair shake. The perceived elitism of the "anime" community is toxic to growth.

[SoulGuitarist]

But isn't there toxic in every community? I don't really think the opinions of one person are really going to turn people away. It depends on who you encounter while playing or on forums for someone to be interested in the gane or turned off. If majority are nice and helping others learning the game or at least try to explain reasons to play and a small group are a bunch of jerks, likely the person would notice that it's only a small amount of toxic.

Fron my experience, there will always be toxic in any gaming scene. Some more obvious while some show less. If you enjoy the game, you shouldn't feel a reason to not give it a chance further.

[BloodWolF]

Agreed, you will have people like that in all walks of life. Unfortunately though, like everywhere else, the "toxic" ones are usually the loudest. When looking into the community from the outside, those are things you will pick up first and what will ultimately influence your drive to dig deeper. This can be said for many things, but the gaming community as a whole is one of the most convenient examples available.

[heavymetalmixer]

I've been thinking that CCcaster (for MBAACC) had the better netcode for airdashers right now, and it was only delay based.

 

Just a few months ago, the creator combined the rollback netcode with the delay netcode, and just a week ago the rollback part was improved. The only thing I can say about this Cccaster is: LONG LOVE ROLLBACK!

 

So, my answer to this thread is obvious: ASW needs to combine rollback and delay in every game they had and will have.

[Hollysmoke]

I don't know why people like streetfighter. it's a horrible, horrible game. Guilty is inifinitely better and always has been ever since guilty gear x2.

 

SF is bad.

 

Tekken is ass.

 

Soul Calibur is cool for 3d fighters but again GG beats it out.

 

Smash is a great game sure, but it's nowhere on the quality level of gg. Smash is more just a wild game, gg is much more refined, etc.

 

So since gg isn't accessible, as in it's a really f'ing hard game to play and you NEED to practice with a character just to be able to play at a basic level, people don't like it. People are lazy. That's why they like Tekken.

 

GG is destined to have a small user based especially as most people can't recognize the true quality of the game in all its aspects. At least its at Evo and the fact that gg isn't on the main stage every year is a little baffling. It's the best fighting game ever made and Evo is supposedly the best fighting game event. Oh well, hopefully Xrd catches on a little.

 

It's okay to not like a thing, just don't be a jerk about it.

SF is a fundamentally sound game; easy to learn, hard to master. SF IV helped revive the competitive FGC scene. It's also the most accessible in terms of teaching the basics of FGs. Tekken is the 3D version that and also has a prestigious history. I haven't played it much, but it's a pretty challenging game. I don't like it, but I respect it for what it is. Soul Calibur and Smash are fun for different reasons to different people; I personally like Smash with items on low so I can goof off playing casuals with friends, or Soul Calibur when I have friends who never play FGs want to play one where they can just press buttons and have fun. Do you see a common thread between all these games? It's fun. Each fighting game series is fun in its own way, and bring something different to the table. That's why they've been around for so long and are so popular.

That being said, we should keep this on topic about the netcode. I think the community would be bigger with better marketing. Since the older GGs have a notorious reputation of difficulty, most knee-jerk reactions are "But isn't that game hard?". If GG has a good showing at EVO (which I think it will with the JP players coming over), it's popularity will grow.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Toxicity exists in every community, but when 1. your community is already small in comparison to others, and 2. the main hallmark of your chosen game is that it's "harder" and "takes more skill", not only is this toxicity more damaging, but it's easier for it to spread and become pervasive.

 

SF4 has far more potential for toxicity due to the much larger player base, but consequently, because of how huge it is, some toxicity is not as damaging to it. Likewise with Tekken. But when your game is niche like GG, the last thing you want to do is push people away. Nearly every single person counts. And when GG is known for being "hard", it becomes very easy for players in the GG community to radiate this toxicity by mistakenly taking pride in their favorite game being more hardcore and serious, and subsequently putting down other games when the opportunity arises.

 

I understand this doesn't have anything to do with netcode, but it is relevant to the topic in the sense of how to make the GG community strong and keep it that way. We don't have the luxury to just shit on everything else. It's also just stupid, because pretty much every game has something to bring to the table. SF4 might be a bad Street Fighter game, but it's still Street Fighter, basically the progenitor of 2D fighting as we know it. SF4 will test skills that you may not get to exercise in GG, like how to play your ground game when you can't just run in for free and guard safely, or how to open up an opponent when you don't have free 50/50 high/low mixups off of a knockdown. Tekken requires a baseline level of execution just to be able to move properly at a competitive level; lazy players will get nowhere in that game. Get out of here with that mess. The whole "my game is da best" approach is juvenile and helps no one.

[Nobus3r1]

Don't know about you guys but when I get fights against other scandinavians I'm usually at only 1f delay, at worst 2f. Netcode seems very good as long as I don't venture further than england or france. Now, wifi-warriors on the other hand are the worst.

I wish there was a way for a game to detect if someone was attempting to utilize its online mode via wi-fi and pop-up with a message politely asking them to knock that shit off or their PS3 will be set on fire.  People trying to play fighting games over wireless is half the reason that PSN has such a bad rep.  This shit isn't that expensive.  I've wired an entire house for ethernet.  It wasn't especially hard.

  

[Synyster17]

Don't know about you guys but when I get fights against other scandinavians I'm usually at only 1f delay, at worst 2f. Netcode seems very good as long as I don't venture further than england or france. Now, wifi-warriors on the other hand are the worst.

i think thats because your in EU. USA has had worse exps with the netcode and such. EU having little to none. that and USA people play farther apart than we should

[Vowtz]

I don't think rollback netcode would make a big difference in player base. I think the main issue with Guilty's popularity is the initial "proficiency" requirement, doing simple stuff like a half circle or an overdrive in guilty gear require some adaptation, while in other games they come out naturally, without effort.

Just those input shortcuts for special attacks (that were criticized by our coleague on the first page) would help a lot to bring new people in.

Because guilty gear already has:

- Best Graphics;

- Greatest diversity between characters;

- Great music;

- Great number of options, both on defense and ofense.

I have a lot of friends that think the game is really cool and want to play it, but give up after realising they can't get their special moves out when they want to, some of them are even familiar with other fighting games.

You can say they are "lazy" but well, it is a GAME, not a college dissertation, do you expect a very serious aproach when you will have fun in your free time? what's the point of making people work hard if they are not even sure if they like the game or not yet?

the main hallmark of your chosen game is that it's "harder" and "takes more skill", not only is this toxicity more damaging, but it's easier for it to spread and become pervasive.

 .... But when your game is niche like GG, the last thing you want to do is push people away. Nearly every single person counts. And when GG is known for being "hard", it becomes very easy for players in the GG community to radiate this toxicity by mistakenly taking pride in their favorite game being more hardcore and serious, and subsequently putting down other games when the opportunity arises.

That is SO TRUE! There's nothing to be gained by saying "yeah, you have to work hard like me to play this game".

It is a GAME, before being thecnical and hardcore it has to be FUN to play! Right now, guilty gear is too demanding on complete beginners.

Before a new player starts having fun he has to get used to doing perfect motions (nobody is happy when they try to input an overdrive and end up with an 6HS), and even then casual players will never have confidence in doing their intended attack on the right time.

I have a friend that always chooses Zangief in Street fighter. He is not a good player, far from it, but he is confident that he can do a Spinnig PileDriver if he wants. He loses a lot, but he plays the character he wants in the way he wants without training a single hour and have fun with the game.

This same player will not be able to do a potemkin buster or a tirant rave consistently without first getting used to the game and being careful with his motions.

The game should not require much for anyone to play at a basic level, it should be like that saying "easy to learn, hard to master", guilty gear right now is just "hard".

MY POINT IS: It is useless to design a game to be atractive only to "old school" or "pro" players, these guys will buy the game one way or the other, and will always master advanced techniques and be ahead of casual players with their training. The correct aproach is to make it as atractive as possible to beginners without ruining the advantage of training and experience.

[Hollysmoke]

-snip-

 

Diversity of characters also means diversity of difficulty; if you run straight to Zato because you read on a tier-list he's godlike and have execution problems day 1? That's your own damn fault. Guilty Gear has lowered the entry barrier by providing a massive amount of tools to learn the game; Challenge Mode teaches you your character, Mission Mode teaches you fundamentals, and Training is..training. As a BEGINNER, everything is there for you to incrementally progress a better player. As a better COMMUNITY, we have to help out one another and avoid toxicity so others learn by example. Netcode won't change communal attitudes.

[TAI-X]

The community wouldn't be bigger. There would just be more of the existing players playing online more frequently.

Came to say this, though replace "just" with "maybe." I'm also tired of seeing people treating rollback like it's a magical band-aid to fix online issues (it requires a good deal of fine-tuning for individual games to function correctly), and games like VF5:FS prove that you can have excellent netcode without rollback. When rollback doesn't work right it gets jumpy as hell, which I find worse to deal with than the usually consistent lag of ping-based netcode. It really all comes down to how well the code is implemented, regardless of whether or not it uses a gimmick.

[Xtra_Zero]

That is SO TRUE! There's nothing to be gained by saying "yeah, you have to work hard like me to play this game".

It is a GAME, before being thecnical and hardcore it has to be FUN to play! Right now, guilty gear is too demanding on complete beginners.

The game should not require much for anyone to play at a basic level, it should be like that saying "easy to learn, hard to master", guilty gear right now is just "hard".

 

I completely disagree.  Guilty Gear is definitely a game where you can rely on fundamentals and still win.  Supers are not necessary, long combos are not necessary.  Simple gatling combos are very effective with almost all characters.  Like any other good game, there's plenty of room to grow and if you're very far behind the person you're fighting you'll get destroyed, but smart play with pokes, sweeps, and throws goes a very, very long way in this series, and now that YRCs don't have timing restrictions and BS exists there's even less room for execution complaints.

Ironically, I think the SF series is making fundamentals less and less important as it goes on.

[Vowtz]

I completely disagree.  Guilty Gear is definitely a game where you can rely on fundamentals and still win.

I was not talking about winning, I was talking about easy inputs for beginners, so they can get their special moves out when they want to.

Xrd Version 1.1 will probably have adjustments for easier inputs, I think it is a good decision.

[The Magnet Technician]

I wish there was a way for a game to detect if someone was attempting to utilize its online mode via wi-fi and pop-up with a message politely asking them to knock that shit off or their PS3 will be set on fire.  People trying to play fighting games over wireless is half the reason that PSN has such a bad rep.  This shit isn't that expensive.  I've wired an entire house for ethernet.  It wasn't especially hard.  

 

Man, I have my PS3 wired and I'm still getting 2-bar connections at best. 

[heavymetalmixer]

Man, I have my PS3 wired and I'm still getting 2-bar connections at best. 

 

That's because the wired and wireless conection share bandwith in the router, so if you play wired but someonle else is using the wi-fi, you'll lag. Still, is better if you play wired, because the lag would be worse if you play wireless even if the other person sitll uses the wi-fi.

[Hollysmoke]

I completely disagree.  Guilty Gear is definitely a game where you can rely on fundamentals and still win.  Supers are not necessary, long combos are not necessary.  Simple gatling combos are very effective with almost all characters.  Like any other good game, there's plenty of room to grow and if you're very far behind the person you're fighting you'll get destroyed, but smart play with pokes, sweeps, and throws goes a very, very long way in this series, and now that YRCs don't have timing restrictions and BS exists there's even less room for execution complaints.

Ironically, I think the SF series is making fundamentals less and less important as it goes on.

 

Long combos are completely and totally necessary, how else are you going to style? Don't know about you, but I ball on the street.

 

And if any of you are playing GG on wireless, you are part of the problem, not the solution. There are so many cheap, affordable wiring solutions that I can't even. It's not like it was 10 years ago where cable cost an arm and a leg.

[Pomparomp]

Man, I have my PS3 wired and I'm still getting 2-bar connections at best. 

 

A wired 2 bar connection is way better to play against than a wi-fi 4 bar. The wired will have a consistent delay, while the wifi will jump up and down at random, making anything even the slightest bit tight impossible.

[Maho]

Came to say this, though replace "just" with "maybe." I'm also tired of seeing people treating rollback like it's a magical band-aid to fix online issues (it requires a good deal of fine-tuning for individual games to function correctly), and games like VF5:FS prove that you can have excellent netcode without rollback. When rollback doesn't work right it gets jumpy as hell, which I find worse to deal with than the usually consistent lag of ping-based netcode. It really all comes down to how well the code is implemented, regardless of whether or not it uses a gimmick.

The jumpy feeling you talk about with rollback netcode is there only when your ingame delay is set too low in regard of the actual delay you have with your opponent, if you really want your game to be smmoth looking and don't mind the extra lag, you can just set your delay higher and never get nay rollbacks, but that requires the game to offer you the option to chose your delay like we can see in Skullgirls, GGPO or CCCaster.

I think if you're going to use a rollback netcode, you must give this choice to the player, and eventually put an "auto" option as a default for those who don't want to bother with it.

 

Now from what I understand, a rollback netcode is more resources intensive than a delay based one, which might be a problem for the PS3 version of the game, and I doubt Arc Sys would give up on PS3-4 crossplay to get the PS4 a better netcode.

[Nobus3r1]

A wired 2 bar connection is way better to play against than a wi-fi 4 bar. The wired will have a consistent delay, while the wifi will jump up and down at random, making anything even the slightest bit tight impossible.

A wired two bar connection still has a high probability of being completely unplayable.  I mean technically so does a wired four bar connection but that's mostly because whatever system is being used to evaluate the "quality" of people's connections is complete garbage.  This very much feels like yet another game that never had its netcode tested outside of Japan.  For whatever flaws (there where more than a few) Injustice: Gods Among Us had one of the features that it sported was automatically cancelling matches if the connection dropped below a specific threshold.  GGXrd badly needs something like this.  Something like if delay >= 5f for 10 seconds = match is cancelled.

[Chev]

Now from what I understand, a rollback netcode is more resources intensive than a delay based one, which might be a problem for the PS3 version of the game, and I doubt Arc Sys would give up on PS3-4 crossplay to get the PS4 a better netcode.

Super late answer, but yes and no. The theoretical answer is Yes because if you want to allow rollbacks up to, say, ten frames, then the function you call each frame, which should be one frame update, will effectively need to be able to fit one full state load, ten frame updates and one full state save. So that's at least twelve times as many things to do. The practical answer is No because, in a fighting game, frame updates and saving/loading state are really simple and fast operations (keep in mind frame updates and drawing the game on screen are separated so the graphic complexity doesn't play a role) thanks to the simple hitbox-based nature of fighting game collisions.

 

Network-wise exactly the same amount of info needs to go through for rollback or delays so that doesn't play a role.

[Dude Butts]

I'm not an expert on the subject, but I imagine you could just run a low level instance of the fighting game engine itself and that rollback wouldn't have to worry about syncing the background, which ostensibly takes most of the processing power

[fishnet]

It isn't the online that's going magically grow the community (it will definitely help though). I think it's these things in order.
 
1. Publicity: GG doesn't have the sponsorships or the recognizable and consistently high-ranking players like Daigo, Valle, Wong, Chris G. or Infiltration for the mainstream audience to see. People follow where the hype goes. Just look at Marvel for evidence of that. 

 

Question: Are there ANY rivalries in the community?
 
2. Loosen the controls: Executing commands in current GG is more difficult than KOF13. New players will not stick around if they can't even get help crawling first. It's like The developers put glass and rocks in the way for the sake of it.
 
3. Get the older cast back into the lineup ASAP: Many, many OG players have not made the plunge because their old main is not available and new players are not interested in the current lineup. When you have SF4 with like 40 current and MK X starting at around 30, GG's character selection options look limited.

[ChexGuy]

Executing commands in current GG is more difficult than KOF13

whoa WHAT

[Hollysmoke]

It isn't the online that's going magically grow the community (it will definitely help though). I think it's these things in order.

 

1. Publicity: GG doesn't have the sponsorships or the recognizable and consistently high-ranking players like Daigo, Valle, Wong, Chris G. or Infiltration for the mainstream audience to see. People follow where the hype goes. Just look at Marvel for evidence of that. 

 

Question: Are there ANY rivalries in the community?

 

2. Loosen the controls: Executing commands in current GG is more difficult than KOF13. New players will not stick around if they can't even get help crawling first. It's like The developers put glass and rocks in the way for the sake of it.

 

3. Get the older cast back into the lineup ASAP: Many, many OG players have not made the plunge because their old main is not available and new players are not interested in the current lineup. When you have SF4 with like 40 current and MK X starting at around 30, GG's character selection options look limited.

1. Street Fighter is a series of games with a pedigree back from the early 90s. Unlike games like the Neo Geo games (Which were popular in the East) and Mortal Kombat (Popular in the West), SF was not only one of the first, it was the first to be popular on both sides of the sea. Well-established games means higher audience, higher audience means more people watching the top players. It even had a live action movie ffs!

2. No. The controls are fine as they are. They've already toned down a lot of execution-heavy characters such as I-No to allow people to focus more on strategy/combos instead of execution. If you want shortcuts, go play Persona 4.

3. *Sigh* This again. SF 4 didn't start off with 40 characters, and MK X re-used most of their skeletal/rigging assets. It's expensive and time-consuming to make 3D characters vs 2D characters. It's not that you're wrong, it's just not as easy as you make it out.

[Nobus3r1]

At this point I'd be fairly happy if the entire East Coast didn't try to cram itself into one lobby.