[CPEX] Blazblue: Chronophantasma Extend News and Gameplay Discussion 3.0

[TD]

The second part I agree with. People should give themselves leniency to perform a myriad of options should any of the blocking or hit scenarios occur. I am not sure what else to say besides this seems to be an issue with newer players in general. It is something that goes away with more knowledge and experience, or rather, it -should-. There is like, no plausible reason I can think of that supports the belief that one should just do the same blockstring from a starter, not until one reaches the higher levels where mind games come into play.

I am not sure how to feel on the first bit however. There cannot be flesh and organs without the skeleton. One needs a skeleton of combos, the bare minimum, to playing a character efficiently, and especially if the player is learning mostly optimal combos. Situational awareness should not be as prevalent when one is learning combos, of all things. That is something that comes when one knows there character's neutral, offensive and defensive options to an extent.

Considering in most subforums' combo threads there are several ways to do a combo, optimal one first usually, should imply that not 'everyone' thinks this way as you say. However, I do think that people go about learning stuff their own way. Again, skeletons. You need a bare minimum of combos in order to at least compete, and become, a low level player. These people know one or two combos from different starters at best. These people can have fun at the game with people similar to their level. Do not learn more, do not evolve, aka, stay a skeleton. But assuming this is not the case, one fleshes themselves out differently. Once you have a few dial-a-combos, you can begin to learn more about the character while falling back on security in real matches until one feels comfortable with the new information.

While everyone will go about building their bodies differently, I do think one should learn these to have a BARE MINIMUM, functioning combo skeleton:

-at least one combo from the best/longest poke

-if applicable, the most universal combo route that leads to a knockdown (or other favorable position) on standing, crouching and jumping foes, and which moves lead into these scenarios

-combos from/into super, if applicable

-the easiest, high damage punish your character is capable of.

(This assumes you know the basic gameplan of your character as that will decide what is best in any given situation)

This covers all defensive neutral situations such as poking and anti-airing, it covers punishes, and it covers what to do if you get a stray hit.

Not everyone has all day in training mode like some of us (not me anymore QQ), so a simple 20 minute startup like this can give a new player an edge especially if they have played fighting games before. Of course, and I cannot stress enough everyone goes about building their bodies differently.

As someone who seems to learn at least 11 characters in every iteration of bb, I can say with confidence that going about it like this will kick those training wheels off and get a player ready for some action.

Do understand that I am not actually talking about new players, I am merely referencing players who simply do not know what they are doing, which so happens to include new players. There are players who have played for years and are basically, still skeletons, one way or the other. Everyone remembers Star-Demon, I am sure. Prime example.

Honestly I see your issue as though players who play you simply do not know what is going on and need to visit dust loop more often.

[Luminos564]

Do understand that I am not actually talking about new players, I am merely referencing players who simply do not know what they are doing, which so happens to include new players. There are players who have played for years and are basically, still skeletons, one way or the other. Everyone remembers Star-Demon, I am sure. Prime example.

Honestly I see your issue as though players who play you simply do not know what is going on and need to visit dust loop more often.

 

Well golly gee willikers, that about sums up my FG history right there. Though I figure, before a skeleton I need an actual character to build that skeleton with and to this day I have not found a concrete one in BB (but that is a separate matter and we already have a thread for that). Though I must give my thanks for that list you mentioned. I've been hit with a slump in BB and not had any success so I will try your method and start from scratch. 10 days left until BBCPE hits my local retailer. Let's see if I can't find something to settle down with once and for all.

[Dark Ranger88]

I have a decent grasp on Makoto's combos...but a huge factor in my combo consistency is the caliber of opponent. If I'm facing a really good opponent where I have to constantly think or am constantly being pressured, a lot of the times when I land a hit I'll mess up the combo. I'll put so much brainpower into avoiding/mixing-up my opponent that I sometimes freeze when I finally get that hit. Whatever I should do just turns into braindead mash...and with Makoto 5B doesn't combo into 5C unless you're really close.

 

But against a lower or mid level opponent I do my pressure/mixup without hesitation, and go straight into whatever combo I wanted to do (because I KNOW they are going to get hit by it).

[TD]

Even if you cannot find someone you like, you can always build their arms and legs. When you come back to them, at least they will be able to run and grab things. Although extremely limited in function, progress is progress and should never be underestimated, as knowledge is considerably harder to let go of than say, money, or friends, or something along that nature.

At dark ranger, well that is advanced stuff: mind games, something every short range character in this game without gapless instant overheads needs to be able to know very well. That is another subject, perhaps one I can touch upon later today or tomorrow. 2a stagger pressure and frame traps are your friend, as well as frame traps. Anything below 4f gap since that is the average jump startup which you can hit people out of. Lows and dash in 6a will also stuff jumps.

You kind of have to create strings to beat mashing and jumping and then you need to guess in the beginning until you get the foe to do one of these, barrier, or ib, and then know their options from there. Backdash? Dp? Panic?

Anyway, maybe tomorrow. I ALREADY SAID TOO MUCH (and now... I must kill those who know... the secrets... Jk)

[Dark Ranger88]

@TD

 

One thing that gets me in trouble with stagger pressure are the people who just barrier every hit from the get go. You get pushed out after like 2 jabs, and at that point it's obvious to them that you either have to dash in 2A to continue pressure or do a long range move and end the blockstring.

 

------------------

 

And if we're bringing up random topics that we want to talk about...I have one too.

 

What is "BB footsies?"

 

I'm pretty sure I understand footsies in the traditional SF sense. "Walk back and forth, space pokes, whiff punish, etc." But BB (and GG too) seems way too fast for any kind of deliberate footsie game to happen. Some opponents can RUN run right at you and throw a huge poke out in a split-second. (I'm mostly talking about Makoto vs Mu and Ragna here....and online at that lel) Unless I'm spaced all the way across the screen there's no way I can make their dash pokes "whiff"...because they can close most distances fast because of their run speeds. A lot of the times it seems like you have to just be constantly pressing buttons in neutral or you get owned.

 

I've read some things on the forum (can't remember exactly where right now) that say "Yeah just learn BB's version of footsies and you'll be good. If you have better footsies than your opponent, you'll destroy them." Then I've seen other people say, "Well BB doesn't really rely on footsies, the game's really not played that way." So which is it?

[mAc Chaos]

@SWD: Don't all advanced players do that? Once you get comfortable enough with your character's normals and know what connects to what you can just wing it when something unexpected happens. Hakumen's combos are all like that especially since they're pretty modular. You just swap in one move for another based on stars you have and the route you want.

 

The easiest way to learn this though is think of the times in a match when you got some random hit that you couldn't capitalize on because it was at an awkward range or spacing or because you didn't expect it, then go into training mode and come up with a combo for it. Then next time it happens you'll be ready.

 

 

I've read some things on the forum (can't remember exactly where right now) that say "Yeah just learn BB's version of footsies and you'll be good. If you have better footsies than your opponent, you'll destroy them." Then I've seen other people say, "Well BB doesn't really rely on footsies, the game's really not played that way." So which is it?

There's definitely footsies, people who say there aren't are wrong. They're just thinking that SF footsies = footsies in general and that because BB footsies are different that it doesn't count.

[someonewhodied]

A lot of (okay not a lot but i still see some) advanced players i see still freeze up and drop stuff in situations where they are able to pick up at least a proper early ender if spacing isn't desirable. 

[TD]

Dark ranger I will try to answer this question to the best of my ability. Having not touched sf since I was a wee tyke, I will not pretend to know much about it besides characters and hadouken.

There are footsies in bb. They are either extremely fast like a roller coaster of beasts, a flurry of fur and fists, or they are slow as molasses (see: tager's matches). They never disappear, though. Fast or slow, if neither player has the advantage, they HAVE to play footsies no question, zoner or rush down, and literally anything from standing still to walking to attacking and defending and summoning (zoners) counts toward that. Why it is so difficult to see in some matches and not in others is simply the pacing. Bb is a fast game, granted.

What you are asking is more matchup related, though. I'm not too fluent in makoto this version, but I will try to exposing my thinking when it comes to pokes like these and throw in some makoto specific examples.

In games where a character has a long poke, it os usually paired with a weakness. Bad recovery, slow startup, maybe can't combo it, etc. to make up for all the utilities long pokes tend to have. In someone like say ragna's case, his 5b doesn't have any glaring weaknesses, never has. It's that good.

Another, not as looked at feature of long pokes is the hitbox, or where it is hitting. If you look at the neutral not just in horizontal spacing, you will of course notice that it doesn't really hit to high above him but at his midsection. I'd call that mid profile. You have high profile, most jumping attacks and mak's Lightning arrow for example, to hit this. You have specific low profiles in this game that either annoying low profile everything (Tao crawl), or are useful in certain situations (kokonoe 2b, bullet 2b, mak 3c before, not sure about this atm). As you said you have tried high profiling him, so try low profiling. Can makoto 2b be spaced such that it will go under his 5b hitbox and hit his other leg? Can 3c low profile later in its animation?

She also has that wannabe dandy step thing, a bait if you will that is risky but CAN out space his 5b and counter attack.

But this is matchup specific. Ragna 5b is different from mu 5c. I'm pretty sure you cannot low profile her 5c at all as makoto, not enough range and 3c is too slow to punish. But because it's overall recovery from start to finish compared to ragna, you have more leniency to do an aggressive high profile attack such as lightning arrow again. But there is another factor, the lasers. You must learn their timings, rate of fire, when they stop homing, placement (determine how fast laser will not you), in that order. If you are on the aggressive, do not worry so much about totsuka or stein explosion because they are more zoning/setup oriented (basically, she needs time and/or space). Lasers are the beginning of any halfway decent mu's plan.

All this says is that you need to be more patient against these characters, but in different ways. Ragna vs makoto is a true, traditional tootsies match of wits. It can go fast or slow until the first real oki situation. With mu though, she holds all the cards in neutral. But only neutral does she hold a significant advantage, you have to try and get her before she gets a stein up.

It is important to remember that in a dksadvantaged matchup there may not be an end-all to a specific situation, you might just have to eat it or look for the tiniest nuances to give your counter rate the highest percentage possible. Let's say at a very specific spacing her 2b does beat ragna 5b. It may not be reliable but it is now something that could be learned and used once in a blue moon. Combine that with the high profile options, back dashing, and barrier, and now you have a ragtag group of options that MIGHT beat his attack. Sounds sad right, but having these small chances to attack are so much better than NOT having them. And, you can technically train yourself to be good at fighting with them, improving your chances even further of it becoming less of an oppressive neutral for makoto.

My last bit is influencing decisions. Please do not just those moves out. I know it was a joke but, just in case someone takes it seriously... Don't. In fact the exact opposite, the more life you lose the more careful and precise you need to be.

Anyway, getting the mu to 5c or ragna to 5b. In my experience, they will do this within range to discourage any horizontal attack. Whether to show you you cannot pass, or to harass you, they will begin doing this in fear that if they do not, you will simply exploit this front. While waiting in neutral (especially vs Ragna, if he is the turtle type you have time to think), actively look for and count the times they do 5b, 5c, stein, whatever. What are YOU doing? Without looking at your character, answer the question. The foe is looking at you, not their character, if they are good; they should already know what they are pressing as if they are fighting makoto in first person. See what I'm getting at? Keep backing up, the foe is counting. When you see them suddenly run up and start a string, it wasn't out of nowhere. You are being watched. Keep jumping randomly in neutral, get thrown, it wasn't a page out of Madame Gypsy's book of Psychics, you were being more predictable then you may have thought. Just as there are high low throw and strike mixups, there are profile mixups and such, but these are based more off your foes actions.

My point being, especially in a bad matchup: you have. To mix. It up. All the time. Keep the foe on their toes, make THEM attack brainlessly in an attempt to pin you down. Too turtley yourself? Next round, go balls to the wall aggressive. Next round keep it slow again. Bet the foe will just wait for you to rush in again... But it won't happen. What happened? You are in control for that brief moment, that's what happened. Control them, and influence them to your will without them knowing.

[StylisH]

You are right, Mu's 5C cannot be low profiled by 3C.

 

A. It starts up too slow

B. Mu would have to use 5C at point blank range and no one in their right mind is doing it from point blank range

C. Any Mu trying to abuse 5C against Makoto is begging for Space Counter or Asteroid Vison B

[TD]

You are right, Mu's 5C cannot be low profiled by 3C.

 

A. It starts up too slow

B. Mu would have to use 5C at point blank range and no one in their right mind is doing it from point blank range

C. Any Mu trying to abuse 5C against Makoto is begging for Space Counter or Asteroid Vison B

Ah.

This is the exact 'small options' I was referencing. They may not work against ANY of her other tools (hypothetically speaking), but instead having a chance to beat one of mu's best options. Without lasers.

Good job.

[floatwater]

Makoto's 3C can low profile 5C (Literally took like 5 seconds in training mode to record)

EDIT: if you want a more detailed answer, you can low profile it, but 3C isn't body invul frame 1 so you can't like, just do it

Man I'm so nice yoming TD's response. I should like. go to bed

[TD]

Not saying you are wrong, but if it took 5 seconds there is probably more to the story. Like what range, what frame, etc, considering these two attacks likely won't be used in the same frames your recorded and tested on, more or less. However if it is indeed correct and you have an option dark ranger, that is good.

I'm at work so can't test anything. Don't as my why I'm writing articles at work please, because I really do not know. Lol

[floatwater]

A little follow up can be done at any range (point blank, max distance, whatver) So long as the 5C isn't super meaty you can do it. 

I GUESS A SITUATION I SEE A LOT OF MU PLAYERS DO IS

5C > 5D > 5C

you can 3C on regular block (fuck you can 5B on reaction tbh) I think the only time you can't punish the 5D is normal barrier

EDIT: Another thing I guess is falling J.2C, you can 3C it (this move is pretty jank tbh) but I mean, 6A has so many options afterwards I don't see why you should ever not 6A an airborne opponent.

[StylisH]

Makoto's 3C can low profile 5C (Literally took like 5 seconds in training mode to record)

EDIT: if you want a more detailed answer, you can low profile it, but 3C isn't body invul frame 1 so you can't like, just do it

Man I'm so nice yoming TD's response. I should like. go to bed

 

This is exactly why in an actual match, you can't low profile 5C.  The Mu would have to be braindead to throw it out while Mak is breakdancing toward her.

 

A little follow up can be done at any range (point blank, max distance, whatver) So long as the 5C isn't super meaty you can do it. 

I GUESS A SITUATION I SEE A LOT OF MU PLAYERS DO IS

5C > 5D > 5C

you can 3C on regular block (fuck you can 5B on reaction tbh) I think the only time you can't punish the 5D is normal barrier

EDIT: Another thing I guess is falling J.2C, you can 3C it (this move is pretty jank tbh) but I mean, 6A has so many options afterwards I don't see why you should ever not 6A an airborne opponent.

 

Not to seem like I'm nitpicking, but 5C>5D>5C is a bad idea.  Leaves you open to all kinds of nasty punishes (Hazama, Tager, HAKUMEN all come to mind).  A Mu who knows what they're doing will j.c the stein immediately to avoid/bait counters and try to gauge the opponents reaction.  Trying to follow up 5D is suicide against IDGAF characters with good reversals/punish rewards, at least without prior stein support.....

[someonewhodied]

This is exactly why in an actual match, you can't low profile 5C.  The Mu would have to be braindead to throw it out while Mak is breakdancing toward her.

 

 

Not to seem like I'm nitpicking, but 5C>5D>5C is a bad idea.  Leaves you open to all kinds of nasty punishes (Hazama, Tager, HAKUMEN all come to mind).  A Mu who knows what they're doing will j.c the stein immediately to avoid/bait counters and try to gauge the opponents reaction.  Trying to follow up 5D is suicide against IDGAF characters with good reversals/punish rewards, at least without prior stein support.....

 

 

Not quite. 5C>5D>5C is strong because if you do a super against it, they can see the superflash during the stein recovery and cancel it into DP immediately, putting you out 50 heat and in a bad situation again.

 

5C>6D>5C or 5C>4D>5C is a lot safer against people without their 50 heat though since you can cancel 4D/6D a lot earlier (3 to 6 frames earlier it looks like). You can get supered doing that while already in 5C animation though.

[floatwater]

The pressure string itself isn't that great as a whole, IB > hit a button, she is at a disadvantage (REACTABLE) 

Plus why would you ever opt to do a super in the middle of a blockstring when you can make safer decisions?

EDIT: in response to the "you just can't like do it" meaning why the fuck would you ever throw out this normal other than to call out something?

Makoto has fast buttons I don't see what the issue is with 5C, plus 3C is safe (in the sense that they want to mash a button) you can still DP it

I honestly don't even see this move used at high level play because she has so many good buttons to use

[StylisH]

Not quite. 5C>5D>5C is strong because if you do a super against it, they can see the superflash during the stein recovery and cancel it into DP immediately, putting you out 50 heat and in a bad situation again.

 

5C>6D>5C or 5C>4D>5C is a lot safer though since you can cancel 4D/6D a lot earlier (3 to 6 frames earlier it looks like). You can get supered doing that while already in 5C animation though.

 

You can still get blown up by a number of different moves, though at max range it becomes a bit safer, although against Kishuu and Yukkikaze, I wouldn't do it

[Reki]

While practicing combos with carl, I realized that these 2 produce the same damage

 

1) 5BB 623C

2) 5B2B6B 623C

 

Is there a general rule in avoiding certain normals when combofilling realized only last night that 2B still causes damage reduction even if it's not a starter. So if you can help it, it's recommended to not insert A's and 2Bs in your combo?

[someonewhodied]

what did the patch just now fix?

 

oh.

 

Update breaks replay data.

 

 

 

Hakumen Meter Bug Fixed

Network Stability.

[Tokkan]

what did the patch just now fix?

Most recent patch? Fixed bugs with Hakumen (meter gain issues fixed, OD versions of supers now correctly activate), Replay Theatre and Network. Also added changes from the previous patch to the Xbone and PSVita versions, though the patch for those versions hasn't been released yet I think.

The Hakumen fixes were also applied in a patch to the arcade version, because they existed there as well.

[mAc Chaos]

Hakumen glitch got fixed? The one where he gets hit once and meter gain gets cut in half?

[Tokkan]

Hakumen glitch got fixed? The one where he gets hit once and meter gain gets cut in half?

 

Yeah, probably that one.

[Myoro]

Well the character just got much better then. Awesome news! =)

 

I couldn't imagine Relius with constant blue Regen on Ignis. Kruh.

 

How much stronger would you say this makes Haku, if we were to quantify it?

[mAc Chaos]

Yeah, probably that one.

Where did you see the actual list of patch changes?

[Tokkan]

Where did you see the actual list of patch changes?

http://www.blazblue.jp/bbcpex_update.html#20150617

 

Oh, and because of the bug fixes to the Replay Theatre, old replays from before this patch are no longer viewable.