[CPEX] Rachel Alucard General Discussion

[Tari]

Discuss the newest iteration of Rachel here!

We've finally reached the console release of CPEX (previously known as CP 2.0), and there are a lot of changes to deal with, from wind regeneration to oki paths to lobelia usage and so-on.


Notable changes:

- 3C oki is weaker (usually vacuums on hit)
- Lobelias have their active frames refreshed after bouncing off the edge of the stage
- Wind regeneration is weaker
- 4B hard knockdown

- (system change) combo untech scales faster or is just shorter in general (gravity during combos may be higher as well?)




I'm fairly sure I'm forgetting some changes (or even getting some wrong), so please do correct me.



Note: I've returned to calling this 'General' discussion after so many years of avoiding that! Whoo!

[gli]

Got to play a bit yesterday:

 

Gatlings I noticed.

 

4B > 3C

4B > 6C

4B > 6A

 

TD damage is like... 1.7k at max level, haven't checked OD

 

All of her normal combo routes have the opponent fall faster etc.

Not sure if lobelia loop exists (probably not!)

[Amegashita]

The amount of stuff Rachel lost is amazing.

[Soniti]

Stuff I noticed yesterday that I didn't realize from videos:

 

Pumpkin appears to be a very short starter

2b>5b>2b gatling gone

[Tari]

Stuff I noticed yesterday that I didn't realize from videos:

 

Pumpkin appears to be a very short starter

2b>5b>2b gatling gone

Oh, that's gone? Guess that's an easy mixup route gone. VSS for pumpkin sounds pretty annoying, too. I'd say we should just go into a quick knockdown, but with 3C oki being nerfed and wind regen being worse, I'm not sure that's as good as before. Hmm.

I'll probably mess with the game a bit tomorrow. Don't have my own copy at the moment.

[TD]

I don't think she lost too much quantity wise, but yes quality wise she did lose a lot of traditional, "this is Rachel" stuff. Wind in particular is very sad to see. Despite her changes, I feel that wind will still be there most of the time when you need it, just not as much. One cannot zone too much with wind anymore but that was slightly compensated with 236c getting its old trajectory back. Many of her combos use one or two less winds than before for the same result, most notably 5djc gaining the juggle property, and windless corner lobelia loops. Combos will generate one wind, unless it's a ja combo or something, in which case wind gained is after successful oki (meaning we may have to rely more on George oki than pumpkin in the corner). Combos are also more consistent, more chances to end them in a favorable position, or not be screwed up as much if you mess them up.

Most of her nerfs can basically be worked around. Different combos into oki, 4b and 5cc are the superior oki options in the corner and it's harder to get double summon but still consistent enough. Mid screen, besides 236c, lotus bats are still counted as poles which can force some down time for wind revenue/respect. She just needs to be played more carefully than before. She is still quite viable, even though some matchups will suck, particularly bullet, nu, hazama.

Od raid joins the fray. It will probably benefit Rachel, but I don't think it will hurt her too much externally. Some issues I foresee is 2a (foe OD raid) 5b. Most stuff from 2a actually, besides 2a. Might mean 2a 6c will become decent further down the line for lockdown, or 2a spam to bait the raid. If someone could test this as I don't have the game yet, that would be appreciated.

Are all of Rachel's attacks jump cancel in OD?

[Tari]

Is there a new oki route (maybe 4B > oki?) or are we just left with weaker 3C oki? I imagine midscreen is probably 3C regardless.

[TD]

Yes

"4b and 5cc are the superior oki options in the corner and it's harder to get double summon but still consistent enough."

3c is arguably better than before midscreen since it leaves the foe closer, but 5cc maximizes the time before you have to use wind again, which is more important than before. Plus, the foe could possibly roll forward out of 3c midscreen now, but this opens up punishment opportunities.

[Amegashita]

Just off the top of my head from watching Soniti experiment:  5b, j.2ad, j.b, isn't a block string so you can get dped between the 5b and the j2ad.  That's pretty big.  Whiffing 6a is like whiffing a really fast recovering dp.  Comparable to whiffing nu's 1.0 dp, minus 10 frames except you don't get fatal countered, you just get hit.  That's big.  2b, 5b, 2b, 5b gatling being gone is ginormous, so now the mixup is 2b, 5b, (6b), j.a/ 3c.  Using 3c without 50 meter means you have to use 2 wind to convert rather than 1 wind from the 2b, 5b, 2b, 5b gatling while landing j.a means mediocre damage, and oh god the damage is terrible.  Barrel lotus getting 2 nerfs is huge too.  The wind amplification effect from it lasts shorter, ALSO using sword iris when you have barrel lotus up means that you have to setup barrel lotus again in order to get the wind amp effect.  Also, 236c goes full screen EXCEPT when they're in the corner.  so like if you have someone full screen away in the corner 236c will only hit them if you use wind.  The damage is horrendous.  Like absolutely horrendous.  

 

I see why Japan isn't feeling Rachel all that much right now.

[Tari]

The higher-gravity effect during combos feels really awkward, as does the overall combo tech times at the moment. Hm.

Was pretty surprised that 5CC > 236B~5D > tk j.214C doesn't seem to combo anymore. A bit sad about that, I used to use that quite a lot more than I probably should have.

5D causing a launch from j.C is interesting, but for the time being, it's also just an awkward change.

Not really up-to-date with combos or anything, so I'm just messing with silly things at the moment. Man, I'd forgotten how slow BB's training mode position reset was.

...somehow I was so tired that I started trying to do Sword Iris with 22 inputs. What is wrong with me. >_>

[TD]

Just off the top of my head from watching Soniti experiment:  5b, j.2ad, j.b, isn't a block string so you can get dped between the 5b and the j2ad.  That's pretty big.  Whiffing 6a is like whiffing a really fast recovering dp.  Comparable to whiffing nu's 1.0 dp, minus 10 frames except you don't get fatal countered, you just get hit.  That's big.  2b, 5b, 2b, 5b gatling being gone is ginormous, so now the mixup is 2b, 5b, (6b), j.a/ 3c.  Using 3c without 50 meter means you have to use 2 wind to convert rather than 1 wind from the 2b, 5b, 2b, 5b gatling while landing j.a means mediocre damage, and oh god the damage is terrible.  Barrel lotus getting 2 nerfs is huge too.  The wind amplification effect from it lasts shorter, ALSO using sword iris when you have barrel lotus up means that you have to setup barrel lotus again in order to get the wind amp effect.  Also, 236c goes full screen EXCEPT when they're in the corner.  so like if you have someone full screen away in the corner 236c will only hit them if you use wind.  The damage is horrendous.  Like absolutely horrendous.  

 

I see why Japan isn't feeling Rachel all that much right now.

Hmm... Out together like this, she does seem rather worked out... I don't understand the last bit though, about the 236c. Are you saying the foe is cornered but she is a full screen away? Or something else? If they are cornered she could probably get a summon off at that range. But I will let you explain that because I am not sure what you meant. Everything else is kinda gulp though o.o I did not know about the 2b 5b change, that hurts so good.

Tari, the jc launch effect is, at least for now, only for combos involving 6c midscreen and corner, which is probably the most basic, optimal, grounded 1 wind confirm. So you don't have to use 2 winds or be point blank to go into a full combo.

[Tari]

Yeah, I only mentioned the j.C being awkward because I tend to use 5D for 6C combos. I'm just expecting them to be on the ground afterward when they aren't. :P

Overall untech timer and gravity changes are just messing with my head at the moment. Tried a couple characters and was surprised by how everything felt. Gonna go sleep on it and worry about it tomorrow.

[Amegashita]

I mean if your opponent is cornered and you're full screen away 236c doesn't go full screen. It stops one character's length away from the corner, meaning if you want to hit someone that's cornered and full screen away with 236c you still have to use wind.  So 236c only goes full screen midscreen for some reason.

[Tari]

236C isn't a full-screen projectile. It only shoots ~90% distance to begin with, regardless of whether you're midscreen or in the corner. You just usually aren't at max screen distance.

[gamester]

Perhaps are you saying that 236C is fixed so it won't hit our opponent when they are backed up against the corner wall and the only way to bypass that is to use a wind stock to get the lobelia to land in the actual corner?

 

That's how I'm reading it?

[Errol]

pumpkin is not VS.

[Tari]

Not sure how useful this info is (or if it's already known), but from my limited testing, it seems like you can get normal 3C knockdown by getting 3-hits on grounded opponents or 2-hits on airborne opponents.

Haven't looked at the combo thread yet, so pardon my probably terrible combos, but as an example, this works midscreen from pretty much any starter for un-rollable frog oki: x > 5C~D > 6C > j.C > 236A > dash 3C(1) > 214C > 3C(2) > 214A (frog oki)

After messing with Rachel for a little while, I can safely say that it's mostly the gravity/untech changes that are really throwing me off. Not being able to do 5B~D > 6A > dash 5B or 5B~D > 6A > 4B > 236A is weird.

Do we just confirm into 5D 6C stuff midscreen, now?

[gamester]

I'll update the combo thread ASAP. I'm aiming to get things somewhat back on track after my exams are done and hopefully keep it consistent. Any findings though, feel free to post them or even add them in their respective sections. I can always edit when possible to do so

[Amegashita]

Perhaps are you saying that 236C is fixed so it won't hit our opponent when they are backed up against the corner wall and the only way to bypass that is to use a wind stock to get the lobelia to land in the actual corner?

 

That's how I'm reading it?

Yea that's what I'm saying.  :O Lol, sorry if it was unclear.

[Errol]

Not sure how useful this info is (or if it's already known), but from my limited testing, it seems like you can get normal 3C knockdown by getting 3-hits on grounded opponents or 2-hits on airborne opponents.

Haven't looked at the combo thread yet, so pardon my probably terrible combos, but as an example, this works midscreen from pretty much any starter for un-rollable frog oki: x > 5C~D > 6C > j.C > 236A > dash 3C(1) > 214C > 3C(2) > 214A (frog oki)

After messing with Rachel for a little while, I can safely say that it's mostly the gravity/untech changes that are really throwing me off. Not being able to do 5B~D > 6A > dash 5B or 5B~D > 6A > 4B > 236A is weird.

Do we just confirm into 5D 6C stuff midscreen, now?

 

 

I doubt that 3c ender is quite that good. Rachel's typical problem is not being unable to punish rolls, but being unable to punish rolls on reaction. frog ender in general is pretty garbage midscreen now because it's I think only +2 against emergency tech. Which means it is going to lose to all kind of fake reversals, like tager's 360.

 

what you're seeing for that combo is mostly just that 6a has very long recovery now. 5BD6A4B has an easy followup, which is just dash 5B6A236A.

 

But 5D6C is hands down the best use of wind midscreen now, providing a lot of corner carry and damage. 6C~JC>236A on short starters, various things for normal combos and in the corner.like JC>6A>236B or JC > dj J236B, JC>6A4B>~ etc

[Tari]

Yea that's what I'm saying.  :O Lol, sorry if it was unclear.

I'll look at it again later, but it seemed completely normal to me? 236C doesn't reach fullscreen, but still lands on opponents who are fully cornered if you just walk forward a little bit. This is true whether they are or aren't blocking, as well.

 

I doubt that 3c ender is quite that good. Rachel's typical problem is not being unable to punish rolls, but being unable to punish rolls on reaction. frog ender in general is pretty garbage midscreen now because it's I think only +2 against emergency tech. Which means it is going to lose to all kind of fake reversals, like tager's 360.

 

what you're seeing for that combo is mostly just that 6a has very long recovery now. 5BD6A4B has an easy followup, which is just dash 5B6A236A.

 

But 5D6C is hands down the best use of wind midscreen now, providing a lot of corner carry and damage. 6C~JC>236A on short starters, various things for normal combos and in the corner.like JC>6A>236B or JC > dj J236B, JC>6A4B>~ etc

The 3C ender (frog or pumpkin if you don't wind) still unfortunately loses to everything you'd expect it lose to in this version, it just same-sides the opponent if they try to forward roll. Like I said, wasn't really sure if it'd be useful, especially since anywhere you can do that on airborne opponents you can just 4B for a solid ender anyway. It might be useful if you use it on grounded opponents for pumpkin oki, but it still seems somewhat poor in light of wind regen and how un-meaty the oki actually is without wind usage.

I'm guessing the opponent techs a bit earlier due to reaching the ground faster, hence the oki being unsafe now? Either way, it also seems like George doesn't activate as quickly as before, which makes it easier for the opponent to do weird things on their wakeup and get away with it. I'm curious if the amount of frame advantage changes depending on opponent height or number of hits from 3C, but it seems like 3-hit 3C is still unsafe to wakeup 360A, so even if it does change, it probably doesn't change it by more than a frame.

I see, the recovery on 6A increased by more than I thought, I suppose. 4B into dash 5B makes sense, height-wise. Just confused me that 4B didn't bounce as high (nor do many things in the game, as it turns out).

The 5D 6C route definitely seems useful, so I'm pretty okay with that change. The free corner carry in a BnB is always nice.

[Errol]

the 4B change is definitely one of the best changes.

 

With regards to 3C, the advantage changed very slightly dependent on height in CP. The typical advantage using Frog in CP1.1 was +5.  At like, maximum height, the advantage was +6. (against an emergency tech).

 

If you would be +6, then an immediate 2a will blue-beat (if they don't tech).  If you're +5, the 2A will not bluebeat.

 

3C now is I believe +2. 3C just floats less now, so I believe the advantage is always going to be +2 or maybe 1 better than that.

 

which means that another rachel can cat chair you, etc, and also means that you cannot punish a jumpout with 5b. Which tilts risk/reward in a crappy way against DP characters.  Well.. It's just kind of lame anyway.

[Soniti]

pumpkin is not VS.

If so, why did [pumpkin hit] 5a 5b 5cc 5b 6a 236a 3c work in BBCP,

but in this version they tech between 5b and 6a?

 

Did the 5b level reduction make the difference?

[Errol]

same reason jajb 5b5cc 5b6a doesn't work

[Soniti]

Ok, but j.a is a VS starter now, no?