[CPEX] Amane Nishiki Gameplay Discussion

[DerQ]

Double 2B? Double j2B I assume? micro dash out of landing recovery

 

^Eshi's

Thanks for pointing out j.2B reset from that setup gives you a bluebeat, didn't think of that. Literally only useful mid to low level play. Meh

[Eshi]

Okay. So. I'm gonna post all my thoughts as they come to me in no particular order.

 

I did pretty okay in Japan, actually. I went further in the Blazblue tournament (2-2) than any other foreign player, even Jiyuna. Playing in Arcades on busy nights before then got me super depressed because I couldn't beat a single player and went through so much yen trying. But when I went to Athena the day before leaving and there were a lot of normal players, I beat a bunch of different players. Extend is still very new so I'm a little lenient on myself until I get used to the changes. Amane lags THE FUCK out of arcade machines, by the way. Whenever I got level 3 drill, the first drill the opponent blocked was pretty much guaranteed to lag the cabinet. Odd.

 

The expressions on people's faces when I picked Amane... either they didn't expect a foreigner to pick a weird character, or they didn't expect anyone to play this character because literally everyone dropped him. Many were literally in disbelief that I picked the right character. I saw every character at the arcades or in tournament, including Bullet and Terumi. Not one Amane. I beat some players for free because they had no idea how to handle the match-up.

 

Amane's changes are... interesting. There's a lot to get used to. If you hold down a level 3 5D and they push you out with barrier, you have to special cancel IMMEDIATELY or you get forced into recovery. Amane has no okie off of air combos anymore, I'm fairly certain. The way the j236C knockdown now works is that they land a lot sooner, but there's no emergency tech option. Holding down a button  now gives regular tech or roll tech at the timing when they would've emergency teched before. This means that I can't do Zettou > jB to hit people out of rolls anymore, in either direction. If you want to punish rolls then you literally have no choice but to guess 2C on back roll or a close attack on forward roll. Whiffing 2C is not an option so I just let the situation reset to neutral every time. Hariken drills are great in neutral but they're terrible for pressure; the risk of getting DP'd is so high and it doesn't matter that it's like +7 on block because they can just barrier to get pushed further out and you can't hit them with anything. I know Hellfire was very excited about it but it's just not worth it at all when you could just zettou jD spam instead.

 

Amane still has good match-ups against Tager, Kagura, Bullet, and Terumi for sure. The players that bodied me the hardest used Rachel, Carl and Bang. I think the Rachel player just knew the match-up extremely well while I did not, theoretically she should be easier in this game. Carl is still a piece of shit but I think the players were just strong and I wasn't used to the changes yet. Bang however feels unbelievably hard now; we can still float around in neutral and he has a hard time pinning Amane down, but his average damage is SO high plus he has so many combos into 4 seals and the game is over once that happens. I really hate Bang.

 

So yeah, overall I had a blast using this shitty character. My tournament matches especially were so much fun! I'm definitely going to stick with this character. I feel that he can win with more dedication and exploration of his tools. No one in Japan plays this character at all anymore so there could be a lot of hidden tech.

[DerQ]

WOooo discussion!!!!!!1! (I still don't have the game, test my shit if you're skeptical ayyyyyyyyy)

 

Drill level 3 with Barrier and IB lags the fuck out of a PS3 as well lol, aside from potentially eating inputs (?) not much use to that.

 

About j.236C oki, I think using B drill should be the default option. Catches forward roll with the BEST starter (if for some reason they want to do that), with the new speed you should be able to block Carnage scissors-like reversals, it maintains drill level or raises it. Holding drill on a back rolls gives plenty of drill meter. The one thing I still can't understand is why the distance between you and the opponent varies after the move. Sometimes they'll be right under B drill, sometimes the move would never connect. No idea if this is character specific or situation specific or both or wtf man

 

Hariken drill pressure IS DEFINITELY worth it. If you say it's easy to DP Amane as a reason not to use it, isn't the timing for DP the same even if you go for j.D spam? Heck, if you connect the stomp, I'm curious whether or not the gap is smaller than anything > 236A > j.D. It'll beat characters who have to rely on normals mash to get out of j.D spam. It's the best starter you can reliably hope to get.

 

I don't know about Bang now (more specifically his rewards vs. ours), I only recall Dora saying this was a bad matchup for Bang in 1.1 at NEC. Main (if not only) thing he told me behind the reasoning was that Bang lacked good anti-air options. But I guess I'll see once I get to actually play our local Bangs again.

[Eshi]

I tested Hariken drill after 5B, there's about a 7 frame gap iirc, can still get 5A'd. If you try it after anything else than you will get hit in the face with everything, not just DP. The reward on block is extremely small unless you have high drill meter and if they hold barrier then they get huge pushback on both hits, so your pressure is over. I will do it occasionally with high drill level or in the corner and otherwise don't bother.

[DerQ]

Why do you think the reward is only better with high drill? It's a 4k combo midscreen for a similar route as other starters. Is it just hitconfirming?

Also I know this increases the gap to mash. but if the stomp doesn't connect, the drill itself won't pushback at all. No need to microdash afterwards to connect anything or hitconfirm

 

EDIT: Could it be that the risk/reward is not worth it in Japan :3 Try it in american pools ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[Eshi]

Why do you think the reward is only better with high drill? It's a 4k combo midscreen for a similar route as other starters. Is it just hitconfirming?

Also I know this increases the gap to mash. but if the stomp doesn't connect, the drill itself won't pushback at all. No need to microdash afterwards to connect anything or hitconfirm

 

EDIT: Could it be that the risk/reward is not worth it in Japan :3 Try it in american pools ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

You're assuming that the hariken drill is going to hit because they're mashing. The mix-up is very similar to zettou jD; if they're mashing 5A, they're still probably going to win. If they're not mashing then you get some chip damage and pressure extension, but barrier block ends your pressure after Hariken while zettou jD clings on them. 

 

If the first hit of drill doesn't connect then you will absolutely get mashed out of it, or at the least jumped out of. The change to hariken is solid for zoning and for combos, but as for block strings it's still a bad option. The risk can become worth it once you've raised some drill level.

[Bio_NightShadow]

Wait! The amane army really shrunk to the point that no one in Japan uses him D: 

 

anyway i thought i put in that using hariken drills may not be the best decision to use for pressure using hariken can be a risky but kinda rewarding strategy after 5D>236a>j5D>236a>j5D because it charges drill while being able to bait burst or dp if spaced properly and tell me TWO things ONE! tell me the terumi match up i get rekt Bad after i get put in block i tried seeing if i can mash out of anything he does but i get countered every time its hard using the DD to get out of pressure bcuz it turns into hariken sometimes and i get punished hard just like jin i sit there blocking til im opened up or a grab attempt happens and i pray that i can tech it when the grab happens and Two! tell me how to combo off of hariken drill in corner bcuz what i do is if i have level 3 drill and your in the corner i go for 3c>236C for knockdown then hariken Drill> OD and if they block i do 5D>236c>RC>5D>236c>RC>5D> 236a>j5D>236a>j5D (I know its risky but i still do special cancel when im out of meter for that extra chip damage) this great when their out of barrier because they wasted it blocking level 1 and 2 drills though if they get hit by hariken during the drill pressure i convert into a knockdown backdash so i can avoid dp if they wake up dp and do hariken drill B now if they get hit by a hariken drill in the corner when i wanted them to block whats the best way to convert off of this.

[Eshi]

 

About j.236C oki, I think using B drill should be the default option. Catches forward roll with the BEST starter (if for some reason they want to do that), with the new speed you should be able to block Carnage scissors-like reversals, it maintains drill level or raises it. Holding drill on a back rolls gives plenty of drill meter. The one thing I still can't understand is why the distance between you and the opponent varies after the move. Sometimes they'll be right under B drill, sometimes the move would never connect. No idea if this is character specific or situation specific or both or wtf man

I don't think this works by the way, I'm testing it out and they can block the hariken stomp after the forward roll 100% of the time so it's not a real punish. It might work if they're not holding back right after they forward tech. It's okay-ish maybe? I'd rather just 2B though since it will hit.

[DerQ]

You're assuming that the hariken drill is going to hit because they're mashing. The mix-up is very similar to zettou jD; if they're mashing 5A, they're still probably going to win. If they're not mashing then you get some chip damage and pressure extension, but barrier block ends your pressure after Hariken while zettou jD clings on them. 

 

If the first hit of drill doesn't connect then you will absolutely get mashed out of it, or at the least jumped out of. The change to hariken is solid for zoning and for combos, but as for block strings it's still a bad option. The risk can become worth it once you've raised some drill level.

 

I may be wrongly assuming hariken to hit or be the alternative to zettou pressure reset. I'll stay aware to how people respond to it past the first month of the game. I did experience people mashing out of it (Lmao level-5) when I thought it was "Correctly spaced". It's still early, thus far people respect some of it.

 

Although, I'm still confident that approaching his pressure like I did in 1.1 is still the way to go, at least in some regards. That is you have risky options, but you have enough of them that you can alternate and force anyone to guess still. Hariken, Hariken cancels, Hop backs, 6B > j.C, hop forwards, j.D > j236A > j.D can make someone attempt to get reads on what you'll do next instead of react or use reversals. That might be optimistic, especially at a level higher than the one I play. I don't know about that.

 

I wanted to tie this post to the reduced pushback on most of his normals, but I don't recall why as I write this sentence. Oh well, might not be that important.

 

I don't think this works by the way, I'm testing it out and they can block the hariken stomp after the forward roll 100% of the time so it's not a real punish. It might work if they're not holding back right after they forward tech. It's okay-ish maybe? I'd rather just 2B though since it will hit.

 

Might just be the players who didn't know there was a stomp in this version and held forward. Sounds likely.

 

using hariken can be a risky but kinda rewarding strategy after 5D>236a>j5D>236a>j5D because it charges drill while being able to bait burst or dp if spaced properly and tell me TWO things ONE!

 

I'm not sure you control your spacing after jD > 236A > jD all that much. Even if it might be true that you can bait a burst that way, the person bursting there  is more likely to get Overdrive since it has little hitstun/blockstun. That's bad. Even if they burst, that's good because you don't really get anything after j.D worth bursting for (Unless that's literally your only option). They could even counter-assault and that'd be smarter on them and hit you out of Hariken in the process. I fail to see how this baits DP, normals or just them upbacking/backdashing. Just holding back might do the trick to bait their DP, but you lose out on a valuable couple of frames of drill meter obtained for using hariken here. I fail to see the rewards for the risk involved, you let me know how it goes for you

 

tell me the terumi match up i get rekt Bad after i get put in block i tried seeing if i can mash out of anything he does but i get countered every time its hard using the DD to get out of pressure bcuz it turns into hariken sometimes and i get punished hard just like jin i sit there blocking til im opened up or a grab attempt happens and i pray that i can tech it when the grab happens and Two!

 

I'm no pro at defense in BB. I just think waiting for the opponent to throw you so you can tech the throw and escape after could be optimized by entirely avoiding the strategy itself?

 

what i do is if i have level 3 drill and your in the corner i go for 3c>236C for knockdown then hariken Drill> OD and if they block i do 5D>236c>RC>5D>236c>RC>5D> 236a>j5D>236a>j5D (I know its risky but i still do special cancel when im out of meter for that extra chip damage) this great when their out of barrier because they wasted it blocking level 1 and 2 drills

 

236C on block does 84 chip damage. If, someone like Tager could do a WHOPPING 4k damage and have you magnetized. Wouldn't be surprised if you get a 3K+ punish accross the cast on Instant block. Never mind that they could burst/OD cancel, Guard cancel, most likely mash a reversal in between Hariken Oki > OD > 5D (IS IT GAPLESS?!!?!??!), most likely mash a normal there, maybe a upback, maybe get up and make lunch before 5D connects. If they don't get back on time, 5D will actually do little to no damage because of damage scaling and they'll be able to tech due to same attack combo and get a free punish as well as their lunch

 

But sure, if they're having a stroke after respecting your drill pressure up to the point where their barrier gauge is depleted on drill 1 and 2, after getting hit by 3C in the corner and their brain can't function anymore past holding their stick backwards and block your offense... Then I guess you've already won the next 5-10 games with this strategy. I won't dispute that under these conditions, it's rather efficient and quick

 

It's like this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gcuoq1pio0If I could have 1px of life, OD, 100 meter, drill level 3, corner, an opponent with no barrier, someone who doesn't crouch block, someone who stands there and just takes it, then of course it is the best option. But that doesn't happen.

 

though if they get hit by hariken during the drill pressure i convert into a knockdown backdash so i can avoid dp

 

Playing a character whose only reversal moves horizontally should be enough of an indicator that blocking probably does the trick here?

 

if they wake up dp and do hariken drill B now if they get hit by a hariken drill in the corner when i wanted them to block whats the best way to convert off of this.

 

Hariken drill hits > Dash 5B > 236C > 6A > 623C > 2B > 6A > 623C is simple enough and should give you 3.6K or so. Replace the last 6A with 2D if you have drill meter for more damage. There's probably better combos, but 3.6k is neat (at this point in time anyway)

[Eshi]

So, double 623C into hariken seems extremely legit in the corner. The combo I'm doing is like this: 2B > 3C > 236C > 5A > 6A > 623C > 5B [1] > 6A > 5B [1] > 5C [1] > 623C > Hariken. Any version works since they always go to the corner if they would go off screen.

 

With this spacing, the new initial hit will always punish forward rolls and regular tech is forced to block a meaty drill. The drills no longer have a hurtbox, thank you jesus I forgot about that buff, so Ragna's DP will also whiff and he'll get counterhit by the drill. I like this much more than j2B oki because you have to chose whether to time it to beat forward rolls or to safejump DPs. You don't have to choose this way!

[DerQ]

Is Izayoi still the only char that 623C > 5B won't connect on?

[Eshi]

Is Izayoi still the only char that 623C > 5B won't connect on?

Still doesn't work on Izayoi, works on Celica and Lambda. I don't know if any old characters had hurtbox changes.

 

EDIT: Just brute forced it. Yup, Izayoi's the only one. Nu-13 and Tsubaki require an additional hit on the first 5B though.

[antonymichiru]

So, double 623C into hariken seems extremely legit in the corner. The combo I'm doing is like this: 2B > 3C > 236C > 5A > 6A > 623C > 5B [1] > 6A [1] > 5B [1] > 623C > Hariken. Any version works since they always go to the corner if they would go off screen.

With this spacing, the new initial hit will always punish forward rolls and regular tech is forced to block a meaty drill. The drills no longer have a hurtbox, thank you jesus I forgot about that buff, so Ragna's DP will also whiff and he'll get counterhit by the drill. I like this much more than j2B oki because you have to chose whether to time it to beat forward rolls or to safejump DPs. You don't have to choose this way!

I can't do this combo... I can't connect with second gekiren .... Any advice?

[Eshi]

I can't do this combo... I can't connect with second gekiren .... Any advice?

LOL I'm sorry, I forgot a part, it's 5B [1] > 5C [1] > 623C. Sorry

On another note, I'm trying REALLY REALLY hard to get my streaming setup working right now so I can record this sick anti-bang oki setup I just figured out. It shuts down all of his wake-up options, including counter with or without teleport follow-up in any direction and wake-up super.

[Eshi]

I still plan on making a video for this, but here's my notes on how to apply Hariken corner oki on the cast in the meantime. I hope people find it useful!
 

 

Amane has multiple corner okizeme options other than simply j2B now, thanks to the changes to Hariken drills. Ending combos with Gekiren at the proper spacing ensures that most character’s meterless defensive options will not work, as well as some options that do use meter, while also shutting down forward rolling out of the corner.

1. 2B > 3C > 236C > 5A > 6A > 623C > 2B > 6A > 623C > TK j2B (closest spacing)

2. 2B > 3C > 236C > 5A > 6A > 623C > 2B > 5B [1] > 6A > 623C > 236DC (medium spacing)

3. 2B > 3C > 236C > 5A > 6A > 623C > 5B [1] > 6A > 5B [1] > 5C [1] > 623C > 236DC (farthest spacing)

4. 2B > 3C > 236C > 5A > 5B > 6A > 623C > 2B > 5B > 5C [1] > 623C > 236DC (alternate to 3)

ALWAYS WORKS:

Bang (2): Bang has a ton of reversal options, but it’s possible to beat all of them with this setup. Ashura misses, Daifunka is too slow and gets blocked, react to the counter.

Carl (3): 236A avoids the drill only, but the normal hit confirm with dash 5B will catch him.

Kokonoe (3): While (2) also works, (3) ensures that she can’t superball C rapid cancel out. Kokonoe teleport loses to meaties now so super is her only option. Try confirming A/B ball with 5B [1] > 5C [2] > 6C [1] > etc. This spacing makes all superballs miss. Combo selection on A/B version is very weird though.

Litchi (3): Makes her DP whiff, recovers in time to block her reversal supers.

Nu-13 (1): This is an unusual character as her meterless defensive option loses to meaties and, while she does have a fast super that will punish any Hariken setup, it will whiff at point blank range. You want to end your combo as close as possible, time j2B such that it will catch forward rolls, then run in her face and meaty her.

Tsubaki (4): Combo 3 doesn’t work. This alternative still positions far enough for every option to whiff and get counterhit by the drill.

Lambda-11, Kagura (3): First 5B must hit twice for the setup to work but it’s guaranteed.

Arakune, Bullet, Hazama, Makoto, Platinum, Ragna, Relius, Taokaka, Terumi (3): Nothing works. If they have a super, Amane recovers in time to block or it whiffs.

DOESN’T WORK ON SUPER:

Jin (3): With 50 meter, Amane can't escape his counter super activating on frame one and triggering the unblockable follow-up. With less than 50 however, all of Jin’s DPs will get punished.

Amane, Celica, Izayoi, Valkenhyn: All setups work until they have 50 meter, then no setups work.

NEVER WORKS:

Azrael, Hakumen, Rachel, Tager: They have meterless options that always beat Hariken setups.

[DerQ]

I think you're missing 5C on the 4th notation

 

If Drill level 1 is +7~ , shouldn't IB drill > 5A beat Amane's microdash 5B, startup wise at least.

 

I wonder if there are new/better options for corner carry or side switch combos... Since forcing some tech situation in BB is hard, this sounds like some nice oki to use all the damn time.

 

Out of curiosity since I'll be playing Brice often (despite the likelyness of cornering Tager in that match lol), if he uses sledge on wakeup: 1. Do you recover in time to block/IB/Mash A? 2. Wouldn't the drill hit him or sledge moves him away enough?

[Eshi]

I think you're missing 5C on the 4th notation

 

If Drill level 1 is +7~ , shouldn't IB drill > 5A beat Amane's microdash 5B, startup wise at least.

 

I wonder if there are new/better options for corner carry or side switch combos... Since forcing some tech situation in BB is hard, this sounds like some nice oki to use all the damn time.

 

Out of curiosity since I'll be playing Brice often (despite the likelyness of cornering Tager in that match lol), if he uses sledge on wakeup: 1. Do you recover in time to block/IB/Mash A? 2. Wouldn't the drill hit him or sledge moves him away enough?

Ah yes thanks for the catch. Drill is actually much better on block in this setup because you act way before the opponent, it's only +7 when used in a block string. I tested it and it's at least +12; I couldn't even DP the microdash 5B without instant block.

[DerQ]

And to think you get increased frame advantage with drill levels. Neat.

 

Rising j.D on regular block can't be dealt with for characters with no DP. Even more neat

 

Neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeat

[Eshi]

zomg I just figured out that I was doing the drill slightly too late in my recording, it actually does beat all of Tao's supers :O Same for Terumi, I forgot that Messenga is not frame 1 invincible! So only 5 characters can escape with a super and 4 can escape meterless, that's fantastic. For Tager it might not even count, A Sledge escapes but Amane still has time to block so it's not bad at all.

[DerQ]

Jiro (AKA JI DA GOD RO) uploaded a CMV, interesting stuff http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm26209406

 

I'm trying to understand the common pattern explaining why Gosei can somehow combo into 2B. Judging from the video, if you hit Gosei slightly with amane slightly below the opponent (or as much as possible), the opponent remains in hitstun for a LOT more time. Almost as if another hit delays the last hit that knocks them down. Not only can you combo, but this opens some potential for hariken oki in the corner since you get a lot more time to setup. If it could be the same as the double gekiren tech posted above, this means even corner carry routes can lead to oki.

 

I wonder if there is better corner carry with something like 6C > 236DC RC > Something > Hariken hits > Something > Gosei > Hariken oki

 

The tease to cave in and purchase traning mode is so strong lol

[antonymichiru]

Jiro (AKA JI DA GOD RO) uploaded a CMV, interesting stuff http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm26209406

 

I'm trying to understand the common pattern explaining why Gosei can somehow combo into 2B. Judging from the video, if you hit Gosei slightly with amane slightly below the opponent (or as much as possible), the opponent remains in hitstun for a LOT more time. Almost as if another hit delays the last hit that knocks them down. Not only can you combo, but this opens some potential for hariken oki in the corner since you get a lot more time to setup. If it could be the same as the double gekiren tech posted above, this means even corner carry routes can lead to oki.

 

I wonder if there is better corner carry with something like 6C > 236DC RC > Something > Hariken hits > Something > Gosei > Hariken oki

 

The tease to cave in and purchase traning mode is so strong lol

OMG this video is crazy and helpful :D

[kentarch]

For my standard 6A anti-air combo I've been doing (facing right):

 

6A > jc > j.5B(3) > jc > j.5B(3) > j.2C(2) > j.214A > j.5B(1) > j.5C(1) > j.6C(2) > j.2C(1) > j.236C

 

However, if my back is too close to the wall, everything after the backhop 5B will just wiff.  Is there a better anti-air combo I can be doing when near the wall other than just:

 

6A > jc > j.5B(3) > jc > j.5B(3) > j.236C

[DerQ]

Try staying on the ground for the first part of the combo. 6A> 5B (1)> 5C >6c > stuff. Not only you will get the same route after 6C midscreen with extra damage, but you'll get side switch routes if your back is against the wall as well as more damage than the combo you posted.

If you'd rather stick with your route, 6A > jc jB > jc jB > j2C > 214 A/B > jB > j2C > j236c will be or close to max damage when cornered

[kentarch]

I'm not too particular about doing a particular route, and side switch definitely sounds nice. I'm guessing I can tie in the Oki setups Eshi posted in his video following the side switch? To practice mode I go.

[DerQ]

In case you might not know them

Hop back from 6C(2) into j.B if you're not already cornered. If you are, 236DD after 6C(2).

Anything else goes into oki