[CPEX] Amane Nishiki Gameplay Discussion

[kentarch]

Thanks a bunch. I'll play around a bit and see what I can come up with.

[antonymichiru]

I recommend you this anti-air combo...

3396 damage, 41〜43 hit

6A CH -> wait -> 5B(3) -> 5C(2) -> 6C(2) -> 6A -> jc -> j5B(3) -> jc -> j5B(3) -> j2C(2) -> 214B -> j5B(3) -> j5C(2) -> j6C(2) -> 236C

I made this video for you please watch it

https://youtu.be/B7H6GI5BVR4

or a little different combo. I sometimes do like this:

6A CH -> wait -> 5B(3) -> 5C(2) -> 6C(2) -> 236A -> j5C(2) -> j6C(2) -> j2C(1) -> 236A -> j5B(3) -> jc -> j5B(3) -> 236C

[DerQ]

You wrote 2A where the notation should read 6A. Also, please mention when Counter hit is needed. Can't do 6A > 5B(3) > 5C on regular hit iirc.

[antonymichiru]

You wrote 2A where the notation should read 6A. Also, please mention when Counter hit is needed. Can't do 6A > 5B(3) > 5C on regular hit iirc.

Thank you ... edited

[kentarch]

Thanks antonymichiru. I'll practice that for my counter hit setup.

[KonannFriends]

I'm really fucking hating this character. Loved him so much in 1.1

 

Could easily fight top tier characters and dp characters.

 

I mean he is just fucking teribad.

 

I don't understand what the fuck devs were thinking.it like they say hey he needs to be able to special cancel his d attacks on block like everyone else; but hey let's take he's ability to build meter via 6d and make him fish for counter hits or corner grabs so he has to spend 50 metter into 6d hahaha.

 

Lets give take his 5b push back because he doesn't want the oponent away from him ahahaha. Lets give 5d hella pushback on block hahaha. Lets nerf the only viable and not even the good defensive option 6b and make it hella impossible to combo into without bot precision hahaha. Lets needlessly change his do super imput.

Lets take away his okizeme because God forbid a zoner have Oki.. Except Nu 13 that is hahaha.

 

I'll probably just play him for fun but other than that he is so bad. If I was Japanese I would play him because They are good at wining with slim pickings.

 

Things I hope he gets its

 

5b pushback

Okizeme back

Rewarded for scoring a counter hit with combo into 6d without having to spend meter. Or revert the changes to 6d.

He needs more tools give him other moves to use at nuetral he really has nothing but command dp. He has a stance why not run with it.

Make stance zettou cancellable. So using it at nuetral doesn't mean you have to block ( this would probably be the best buff ever. This would a low you to play a zoning game while building drill so he can start an offensive game.)

 

There's a bunch of other stuff but now that I think about it stance being zettou cancellable is the best thing I ever thought of.

[Eshi]

 

 

I'm really fucking hating this character. Loved him so much in 1.1

 

Could easily fight top tier characters and dp characters.

 

I mean he is just fucking teribad.

 

I don't understand what the fuck devs were thinking.it like they say hey he needs to be able to special cancel his d attacks on block like everyone else; but hey let's take he's ability to build meter via 6d and make him fish for counter hits or corner grabs so he has to spend 50 metter into 6d hahaha.

 

Lets give take his 5b push back because he doesn't want the oponent away from him ahahaha. Lets give 5d hella pushback on block hahaha. Lets nerf the only viable and not even the good defensive option 6b and make it hella impossible to combo into without bot precision hahaha. Lets needlessly change his do super imput.

Lets take away his okizeme because God forbid a zoner have Oki.. Except Nu 13 that is hahaha.

 

I'll probably just play him for fun but other than that he is so bad. If I was Japanese I would play him because They are good at wining with slim pickings.

 

Things I hope he gets its

 

5b pushback

Okizeme back

Rewarded for scoring a counter hit with combo into 6d without having to spend meter. Or revert the changes to 6d.

He needs more tools give him other moves to use at nuetral he really has nothing but command dp. He has a stance why not run with it.

Make stance zettou cancellable. So using it at nuetral doesn't mean you have to block ( this would probably be the best buff ever. This would a low you to play a zoning game while building drill so he can start an offensive game.)

 

There's a bunch of other stuff but now that I think about it stance being zettou cancellable is the best thing I ever thought of.

 

This is how I felt at first, too. But I had to play 1.1 Amane for the first time in months yesterday (anime con tournament lol) and I have to say that I like Extend Amane more now. His drive actually feels like it meshes with his character design, as opposed to 1.1 where he basically ignored it until deciding to fish for a 6D gimmick setup.

 

• 5B pushback change does kinda suck, but it's a very small change. The direction for Extend was to encourage pressuring with drills at any level and keeping the opponent closer with 5B makes sense for that.
• Amane doesn't have midscreen okizeme off of j236C, but it wasn't very good in 1.1 anyway. He definitely still has okizeme in the corner and in some ways it's better. 
• Amane could not combo into 6D on counterhit anything without spending meter. You could set up into 6D, assuming they weren't playing the handful of characters that can escape with a super or even meterless. Universal combos into 6D is a very good trade-off and improves his match-up against characters like Rachel or Bang.
• I don't think he needs more tools. I think he needs more damage. He has lots of options and some of the best maneuverability in the game but it's hard to appreciate that when he can't hit confirm attacks in a lot of situations.

[DerQ]

I feel the same way, but maybe more so towards the intended design than the current version of it. 

 

More flexibility on blockstrings with reduced pushback (I swear 3C connects from anything), tools like 5D cancels, 6B > j.C, buffed 2B, etc. Slow neutral (game time wise) that allows Hariken usage. Combo'ing into Hariken is neat, it'd be fun if the move remained projectile invincible a bit longer (Stop bursting there Pochp I beg you ;_

 

Overall the idea that this character has a package instead of a one-trick win is much more appealing.

[DaiAndOh]

Of note, it's been stated that no balance updates are planned for CPEX, so it's a ways to go before this character changes.

Although unlike the above 2 posters, I don't really have any real thoughts on the design changes.

But I feel with OD guard cancel, there maybe more opportunities in theory for Amane to reach level 3...more of a hunch, but you can probably make big shifts in momentum if your opponent uses certain moves (one I know is Azrael's Gustaf). And if they stay away from those, then I suppose all the better for you?

Because D's are special cancellable, maybe that stopped Amane from becoming a GCOD victim for using them on block himself?

[DerQ]

Amane doesn't have midscreen okizeme off of j236C, but it wasn't very good in 1.1 anyway. He definitely still has okizeme in the corner and in some ways it's better. 

 

Call it unreliable, but hitting j236C at the right height and with the opponent at the correct distance just above you, j236C is combo-able into 2B or 5B. I'm sure that gives you similar oki to other setups. But it's effing hard.

[KonannFriends]

Eshi I get where your coming from but imo the only change in the right direction was special cancellable drills. thats all he needed to make drill at low level viable .

And to me the 5b loss was big because I loved 5b 2c so then I could either set you airdash to bait the mash. Also the pushback made stagger pressure (5b stance 5b micro 3c stance 5b) more viable and hard to mash out of of.

One thing I'll always love about amane is his j2c. Its so good. Easy crossup. Catches rolls even safe if they don't.

Overall they tried to make him have a playstyle But they did a couple things wrong that made him bad.

Does jb, 5c and 2c hitboxes seem huge in this version.

[KonannFriends]

Kinda take back all the shade I threw at amane. Now that I'm used to the playstyle I'm winning like a used too.

And even though they can mash a or anti drill pressure I can easily set you back into jc forcing them to somewhat respect drill pressure instead of mashing out. Still hat the 6b nerf though.

Also dropping 6d works sometimes. I have seen People backdash out of it but that was when I was obviously going to drop it.

[Senser]

I don't know why I never posted in Amane discussions, but let's change that~~

 

Here is some stuff I've observed while playing and watching CPEX Amane:

 

• 2D as an antiair might be a lot stronger, since you can special cancel D buttons now, right? So 2D antiair >zettou or 2D on block>Hariken might be useful. Or did only 5D get special cancel? Cross this out if that's the case.
• I'm wondering about Hariken stance to pump meter in neutral or after knockdown since Level 2 drill is useful now. I don't feel like it's that good because you allow your opponent to gain control again. Though it might be useful in some matchups. I might be willing to do it in rare cases.
• I think overdrive raid sucks for Amane. The only reversal he has kinda sucks and we get nothing from it and cutting down on OD time means cutting down on drill level gain. Of course it can be used smarter to get a nice CH, but that's nothing Amane-specific.
• tk j.2b>rc>j.a as an instant overhead became useless because of proration right? In earlier versions I liked to use it in the corner, since you could combo into Gekiren and go for resets. :/
• Now that 6D is a combo tool only, I'm thinking about other methods to build drill meter. Using drills in pressure doesn't do shit. As in, a good player won't be scared to blow you up for trying and it barely gets you any drill levels. RC 6D combos are a given, but otherwise I don't see any really viable methods except going into overdrive. And honestly I'd be willing to do so. I know Amane defense sucks, so we should be keeping our burst but this character is legit weak. Sometimes we just need to do the ballsy stuff to get things going. Especially against good players.
• Right now, zettou/iad crossup or zettou>air backdash fake cross seem like the only 'real' mixup options Amane has. We might be able to make 5a mash whiff by using B zettou, but it'll be harder to combo afterwards.
• Amane feels okay and playable unless you play on high level against players who know the matchup. The new changes made this part slightly better, but no matter how you put it, I don't see this character winning tournaments where strong competition is around. Doing good reads and being on point simply won't cut it in a game where characters like Jin, Hazama or Litchi exist. Pray for A tier in next version ;(

[TD]

He still has throw setups, it's something lol

Best places to charge are basically midsceen after a combo ended... Or after 6c, which will switch positions. In the corner he gets oki. Honestly the best way is the 6d way. If you can't do that, any other way is a risk of neutral OD, or a counter hit.

[DerQ]

Is special cancel enough to justify using 2D over 6A though? I mean, the only matchup where I thought 2D was useful was Tager. Even if you have 2D, the move still has it's 17 frames startup as far as I'm concerned and similar starter values as well. Aside from being active longer and maybe better rewards off drill level 3, I'm not sure what would be the point. Of course, I'm willing to see if practice beats theory crafting here. Skeptical until then.

 

Hariken neutral building depends so much on the matchup and player. I mean if you're reading that someone is gonna be patient or that you can go through a projectile w/ it, then use it IMO. Hitting someone with Hariken level 1 at neutral is basically w/e, lvl 2 makes hitconfirms at least somewhat manageable as well as slightly longer duration.

 

Overdrive raid doesn't cut on drill gain if you use it w/ low hp though. It raises to level 3 and in some situations is an escape tool. I can't say i've extensively used it and proof tested it's use, but it is not what you are claiming it to be.

 

No mixup? Sure. I'm not gonna say this makes him viable, but I'd rather embrace it for what it is and try and win from neutral and lockdown pressure instead.

[Senser]

2D is useful in every matchup where delayed jump ins can be used. For example Koko's air graviton, Azrael's divekick or Ragna's belial edge. Or generally for people who are high above you. It depends on the situation but most of the time you'll be picking 6A over 2D, yeah, but having the option and using it helps a lot. Don't underestimate 2D because of it's startup. It's power lies mostly within the long duration of head invul frames. It's not an easy to use tool but people really tend to forget about it because of its rare appearance in neutral.

 

About OD raid, I wasn't saying it's completely useless. But I was implying that Amane doesn't benefit from it as much as some other characters do. Having low life to gain drill levels isn't a condition I would deem as 'good' since it means I've taken quite a beating by then. Of course we'll have to use it since it's a tool we have. Using OD raid is one thing every character can do, but capitalizing on it is different throughout the cast.

 

While I agree that Amane needs to win from neutral, I'm having a hard time trusting his pressure. While the idea is there and Amane has a lot of options, those options are partly good and partly weak. Like, you can react to about a third of them. Another third can be mashed out of. And the last third is like waiting for the opponent to slip up. But yeah, the character is pretty much based around dancing around your opponent and forcing mistakes on them so there's no real point in complaining about it. It's not bad but it's not good either.

[Eshi]

Everything Amane does in pressure is a "mix-up", it's just not the overhead-low-throw type of mix-up. IMO his rushdown is actually really good in this game but his problem is he gets extremely small reward for correct reads compared to any other character. It only matters in certain match-ups though. I feel that the Jin and Litchi match-ups got a ton easier in Extend.

 

Hariken for gaining drill actually sucks in Extend. They changed the rate that he gains drill meter yet again, he both gains and loses drill meter at a slower rate but the gaining at a slow rate makes Hariken really not worth it for how much you risk getting hit. However placing a drill is entirely worth it since it's much faster and will stall your meter loss. 

[KonannFriends]

Use use hariken stance but like everyone said in some matchup it's just too risky but that's not saying much because it's only risky if your not aware of your oponents options and the space between you.

Using it if the oponent is in 2c range is not viable at all the opponent could quickly wake up iad you with a counter hit and could take the match.

But outside of 2c range it's usable but.

For me if I use it I'm using it to get an overly patient opponent to chase me ( Ragna, Jin, Platinum)

And if I do do it I'm going to be ready to cancel stance and go straight into 66a or 663c. 665b is good but is very risky because of its recovery if you miss time it/ they bait your attack or use a low with priorty( Mu 12 2b).

Overall it's a decent option to build meter. But do it discretly. Don't make it obvious that that your plan even with it is. A quick Hariken stance puts you at level 2 after 3 times. Then about 2 cycles of drill pressure and your at level 3.

Also j6d for hard reads during pressure is a must especially in the corner with level 3. If I get a raw non counter hit j6d I can usually auto pilot something into 4k but I haven't found a consistent combo yet.

If the block the j6d they get a huge amount of chip.

If they barrier you can just auto pilot a 5c/2c into gekiren because they will try to jump out rather than run out you because of the distance between you. ( well seasoned players might try you though)

[KonannFriends]

Also I'm not sure if this has been discovered but I got a 3k 6b fatal that doesn't require the use of j2b.

I only tried on Jin but I got it to be very consistent.

Midscreen: 6b,jc,236a,jb,2a,5b,3c,236c,5c,6c,6a, jb, jb, 236c. 3003 damage

[Eshi]

I recently figured out that Jirou has been streaming sessions of him playing Amane in training mode and netplay, once I have a functioning console with Extend and can sort through all the footage expect lots of new information. ^.^ The most obvious aspect of Jirou's play is that he uses lots of level 1 2D and 5D combo ender in the corner to help generate drill meter. If he hits something like 5B > 5D with close to level 2 then he will almost always ODC for level 3 for a combo that does around 3k. Very good ideas that I want to implement!

[Eshi]

I've been doing a lot of thinking and studying about how to structure Amane's pressure in this version. I may ramble on a bit but I want to post my thoughts so far, both for others to learn and for myself to help internalize it.

 

Amane's drill gauge changed such that it both increases and decreases at a slower rate than before, except level 3 which does both much faster than before. Amane spends most of his time in level 1 until he has 50 meter so optimizing this is my main focus. Up until now, if I decided to do 5B > 5D as a block string I would hold down 5D for its whole duration because I thought it would be best to gain as much drill as possible. But this is actually really dumb. 5D's strength in pressure comes from that he can special cancel it at any point; if you hold it for the exact same duration every time then it becomes very easy for the opponent to time a counterattack, especially considering that 5D has very little block stun. 

 

Also, prior to ECT I drastically underestimated the power of instant blocking Amane's pressure. More important than the reduced block stun is its reduced pushback. If the opponent just patiently IBs 5B or 5D, you will barely move at all. If you try to zettou cancel into jC, you will completely miss. Even 6B and 3C have barely any pushback so jC will usually miss there too. jC's primary use in pressure is to yomi punish anti-air attempts but IB takes it entirely out of the picture, they can just mash every single time when you pressure predictably.

 

With all that said, Amane has a lot of flexibility in his pressure and can play around almost anything. Are they using a lot of barrier on your block strings? Zettou back on top of them soon, the increased block stun makes your pressure safer and jD suffers less from push back. Are they using a lot of IB so they can mash? Do a frame trap. 5B is great for this since it has 3 different cancelable hits and 5D, 3C or Hariken all punish different options. 5D is also great even if it lacks block stun because you can cancel at any point (but never ever go for Hariken, 236A or 214A > j236A are strongest here). Or Zettou away for complete safety, see if they DP and whiff punish. Players who straight up turtle against Amane are completely fucking up. He WANTS you to just sit there and block his pressure so he can chip you and gain more drill meter. Active defense is the correct way to beat Amane so that's what we need to play around. 

[TD]

Who the hell is sendatu? He comes seemingly out of nowhere and starts thrashing rin-hime like he's some sort of pink pudding?! Outrageous!

Amane's pressure against people with few defensive options reaaaally show in the latest video. Rin kept a cool demeanor mostly, but I could tell he was getting flustered - as if the exaggerated sighs weren't enough. Still, this is one of the top Rachel's who has been playing for years, so this was nothing short of impressive.

[Kikirin]

I'll drop these here for now since we don't have a CF changes thread yet.

 

Amane vs Hibiki: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQNwSLZ18_U&feature=youtu.be

 

Some obvious changes noted: 

- j.236C has a steeper descent angle, about 10 degrees off the vertical instead of the 30 to 45-ish.

- 6D seems to track the opponent's position some, up to about one width of the 6D drill.

 

Famitsu also describes some of his additions: http://www.famitsu.com/news/201507/19083777.html#page02

- Ginga (214C) fires a tornado-like projectile at mid-range. It blows the opponent back on counterhit, and could be followed up with Gekiren and maybe the C series.

- 4C and 1C normals are added. They are basically shorter-reach versions of 5C and 2C, respectively, with better control of the mid-range.

[DerQ]

j.2B seems to go downwards much faster? That could make TK j.2B easier? I dunno

 

I'd have to try j.236C myself to see the difference, I'm guessing less chances to escape with it is all that we'd really lose, and that's already low.

 

Going to get some time getting used to 4C and 1C, although that'd be welcome, the return of 5B > 1C

The hitstop seems lowered from BBCP? Hits go by so fast...

[KonannFriends]

Loving the adition of 1c and 4c these are just two more tools he has on neutral now