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Kiba

[CPEX] Tsubaki Q&A Thread

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On October 4, 2015 at 10:00:19 PM, NowItsAngeTime said:

I have a few questions regarding general strategy for Tsubaki:

  • Generally Tsubaki's neutral is not good/easy to disrespect right? Is this because of lack of range and priority on most of her moves?
  • What's her main strength to counter her not so good neutral? Her long combos and mix of blockstring pressure options?
  • In Tsubaki's average matchup her goal is to get in people's face and keep on her pressure until she can her good long combos right?
  • What's the benefit if using her command throw over regular throw when you have to RC it for comboing?
  • Is there any point to using any of her non-command throw Sanctus specials outside combos?

1. Yes, she has to play pretty real neutral compared to most characters that have ways to protect themselves, disrupt the screen, or enhance their movement and she also has to deal with her buttons not beating out any other characters' buttons near 100% of the time, especially in the air. "Priority" is never a good word to use because it encompasses way too many things to accurately describe anything. I'd say that it isn't because of her lack of range, but because of the structure of her normals. For example, Tsubaki is the only character in the entire roster that doesn't have an air normal with a hitbox behind them and that makes things immensely difficult. She has no low attack that is fast with her 2B having 13 frames of startup and awful reach for how slow it is. She does have the second fastest running speed in the game, though.

2. Her main strength is people not knowing how she works. You have to take a huge advantage of this or else you actually don't have much over other characters at all. She has flexible pressure, but it isn't protected. She can do a lot of damage, but only in the the right situations. I would say she has pretty great meterless damage off of a 5A/2A starter and she gets amazing damage off of air grabs and in the corner. Just looking at things from the perspective of other characters, the degree of the risks you have to take as Tsubaki in order to get anything accomplished seems completely insane. It used to be a lot worse when she didn't do any damage since she not only had to take these risks in order to navigate neutral and open people up, but she also had to succeed nearly double or triple the number of times she needs to do so in BBCPEX because of how low her average damage output was.

3. Yeah you have to try to stick to the opponent like glue and trick them into disrespecting you at the right moments instead of jumping around so you can punish them for doing so.

4. Her command grab nets her 2 charges and people can't tech it like a regular grab so the fear of that can be used to condition people to jump or mash.

5. Here I'll make a list:

  • 236X: The non-D versions of these are not that great to use in neutral unless you have great reads on your opponent because the startup of the 236X series moves her hitbox backward slightly before she charges in. 236C causes you to cross through the opponent during combos which gives you full control over the positioning of a combo with near zero effort or sacrifice. The D version goes a fair distance, is plus on block, and gets a great combo off of any random hit.
  • 214X: This series of specials has body invuln (this means you can still get hit by low attacks, jumping attacks, and grabs) starting on the 6th frame, but is an S starter just like Tsubaki's jabs. 214B doesn't get much damage because of this, but you actually get pretty decent corner carry and damage off of 214D since it is jump cancellable and you can use 214B again in the combo without triggering SMP.
  • 22X: These specials have projectile guardpoint though this isn't too useful since the moves themselves are not too fast. If you do guardpoint a projectile successfully your recovery gets dropped to near zero so you have a chance to move. Because of how long the move is, how far it pushes the opponent away, and how little recovery it has, you can end pressure safely. The D version of the move is just as plus on block as 236D is so you can try to catch the opponent mashing a normal that won't reach you from the distance you will be pushed back and punishing them in recovery instead of hitting them during the startup of their normal.
  • 421X: This is Tsubaki's go-to projectile for use in neutral. Use it to keep people away so you can get charges or get people to approach from the air so you can anti-air them or air grab them into big damage. It can also be used to force the opponent to block on their wakeup if they decide to neutral tech and not opt to roll. The D version of this special takes both of these to another level and the projectile does not go away when you are hit. The projectile lingers for a bit on startup before accelerating across the screen so it can be used as a shield to cover an approach and can even catch rolls after a knockdown because of how much larger it is compared to the 421A projectile.
  • 623X: This one is pretty obvious because it is her DP, so you use it to get out of pressure where there are gaps too small for mashing to work or on wakeup if you are feeling ballsy.
  • j.236X: Her much more risky air projectile that travels at an angle to cover a bigger area. Tsubaki is in recovery until she lands on the ground after using this special, so being a good distance away and only a slight height off the ground is recommended. Just like the D version of the 421X series, the projectile does not go away when you are hit if you use the D projectile though it does not do really much else. The one thing it may be useful for is whiff cancelling your DP into making it look safe.
  • j.214X: Using the non-D versions of this special in neutral isn't the best idea except for getting out of the corner after super jumping with the C version since it travels so far. The D version got buffed to hell in BBCPEX. Aside from the obvious combo utility with allows you to carry corner to corner off of any random confirm, it has ridiculously low recovery for its attack level and speed. If you use it close enough to the ground, it is + on block and it leaves you in the range to grab or command grab the opponent even if the opponent had been using barrier against your pressure because of the fact that the special moves you so far forward. It can be used to bait and punish grabs if you tiger knee the special since it will put you in the air very close to the ground. There is even a way to confirm off of a fuzzy guard setup with the special. You can use it immediately after throwing out a projectile with j.236A in order to try and smack people who run under you in order to punish you in recovery. Just like j.236D, you can cancel your DP on whiff or block to make it look safe. Some people think that they can't punish Tsubaki if they block j.214D after she cancels out of a DP but they can. It is just that they will not get a counterhit when they hit her. So really all that j.214D does is prevent a counterhit from happening at the cost of 1 charge which j.236D does not.

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Okay, since apparently there is no matchup thread for this matchup (Bah), does anyone have a good punish for Kokonoe's super-ball super in this version of the game?

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Here are a few, but you gotta be quick with the dash for the 5C ones.

Midscreen

[OD + 50%] 5B > 6C > ODC > 236236C > 5C2C > 214B > 5C2CC > j.C > dj.CC > j.214B [4172 DM]

[1 Charge + 50%] 5B > 6C > 236236C > 2366D > 5C2C > 214B > 5C2CC > j.C > dj.CC > j.214B [4378 DM]

[2 Charges + 25%] 5C(dash) > 421D > 236D > 6C > Crush Trigger > 6B > 623C > j.236{A}(w) > 5C2CC > j.C > dj.CC > j.214B [5235 DM]

Corner

[2 Charges + 25%] 5C(dash) > 421D > 236D > Crush Trigger > 6CC > IAD j.C{C} > 5C2CC > j.C > dj.CC > j.214B [5679 DM]

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Buffer the dash input during the 5D and it should be possible. It is more of a flashy combo rather than a practical one though.

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16 hours ago, chzchan said:

Buffer the dash input during the 5D and it should be possible. It is more of a flashy combo rather than a practical one though.

Is that the 5CC > 5D > Dash x 5 one? That is the most hilarious troll combo ever, but yeah, completely not useful.

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Under what circumstances can you do the 2BB crossunder?  I'd like to add it to my repertoire, but I'm not sure when it works.

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236C. In CF you can just sliding crouch and it works without having to hit 2A or 2B so they may have adjusted her hitbox slightly.

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I use it after (juggle) 236C > 214B

If the guy techs ASAP it's super easy

You have to push the body a little bit before pressing 2BB, or Tsubaki won't slide under him

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I have noticed that sometimes the 2BB followup does not autocorrect upon sliding under like it used to in 1.1 so don't always just mash 2BB. You may actually have to delay it a bit or you can just do 2A>5C/Command Grab etc.

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Ahhh, okay. Great.  That gives me some situations to mess with.  Thanks!

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Belated thanks for this; Once I read this thoroughly and noticed that it needs to be done after a juggle, it is indeed pleasantly easy! I couldn't get it to work after grounded 236C.

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It still works off grounded just fine. Just gotta dash for a bit longer and time the 2B/2A to be a bit later.

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Hmm. Will work on that next.

Next question.  Is there a trick to the 236236C > 2366D combo? I've done it a couple of times, but I'm messing around in training mode now, and the dummy keeps teching out before the 214B here:

236236C > 2366D > Dash 5C > 2C > 214B

 

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Well yeah because this combo is not possible.

 

236236C is a S starter.

5C > 236236C > 2366D > Dash 5C > 2C > 214B > Stuff works

I would never start a combo with this DD tbh. It's a waste of meter

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It is not a waste of meter. Trust me. You can kill off of this. I have stolen rounds using this since using 50 meter on this super gets you so much more reward than RCing a C or D DP. You can bump up the 1.5k that this move does raw to 3.5k with 1 charge which is such a huge difference.

214B will not work since 236236C is an S starter. Even though it is an S starter, it is one of the few that has a P1 of 100 which means each hit after the initial will do a ton of damage. The combos are:

[1 Charge + 50%] 236236C > 2366D > 5C(dash)2CC > sj.C > dj.CC > j.214B SK [3576 DM] [?% HG]
[1 Charge + 50%] 236236C > 2366D > 5CC(dash) > 623C > j.236A > j.214A HK [3257 DM] [?% HG]

This is even easier to do in CF thanks to the changes to 236D's knockback and S starter hitsun decay.

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Huh. I could have sworn I got 214B to connect once or twice, but maybe I just went straight into the jump cancel part.  My memory may be faulty.

This isn't a combo that I would necessarily CHOOSE to use, but sometimes I mash DP, and sometimes when I do that, I get super, and sometimes it hits, and sometimes I have a charge, and being able to add 2k to a combo for one charge is a win in my book.  And yeah, 3.5k for a reversal is kinda nice. :P It goes in the same category as the 75 meter 63214C RC combos.  Not generally important, but super useful under the right circumstances.  I already have combos for common situations, so I'm working on weirder stuff, because that can still win you a match.

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Yeah, have things prepared for every situation. Just getting in that extra bit of damage if you judge your opponent's health amount correctly can be the difference between a win and a loss, especially if your opponent doesn't have their burst.

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Good day to everyone still reading this.

I'm playing with friends on pretty low skill level vs reversal lacking chars like Lambda, Nu, Kokonoe. I'm having hard time dealing with rolls\quickstand and you really don't want this chars to got away form pressure.

What the best way to approach roll punishes on midscreen and corner?

As far as I can see after j.214a you can do 5d-2b and it'll catch forward roll\quickstep, but whiff on backroll and perfectly timed forward roll (3 active frames and 3 invul frames) but let's call this impossible.
So j.214a 5d-2b seems like a solid options for corner, I mean who rolls backward in corner?

For midscreen j.214a - dash - 2b catches all rolls and quickstand, and I think loses to delayed roll (let it be for now).

22b-5d seems to leave you to far away to do something with backrols, but you can catch all others with dash 2b.


And the second question: how do I approach to neutral with characters with better neutral, for example Kokonoe?
Her 2a, 2b, 3c goes under farther hitbox of 5b so you feel like you haven't pokes in that MU(
Right now I'm trying to lure whiffed 3c\6a and do iad j.C\dash 5b. And lately I'm trying to use a lot of 421a spheres. Not sure if it's effective(

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I find that delay 2B catches every option that's not neutral tech, doing "5D > 2B" is a bit risky because you might miss the timing for 2B if you're not precise. Additionally mashing 5A over them when they're down is another good option (corner only), as they'll roll or delay tech into the active frames: the only hard part is the confirm after it can be difficult if you weren't expecting to catch the roll. (The confirm would look something like "5A > 5C > 2C >  214B > 5C > 2CC > JC > j.C > JC > j.CC > j.214A into 5A mash again)

 

You pretty much have the right idea: bait 3C/anti air attempts with iAD j.C and try to make her move with 421A so that you can meet her air to air or anti-air her.

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Kokonoe is an irritating matchup, because it's really hard to get in past the range of roughly her 3C.  You can use your own 3C sometimes, and you can jump in from roughly 3C range as well, which will go over a lot of her pokes and hit her, but you need to be careful of being too predictable because 6C and j.A can blow this up.

Harassing with 421A can help - it's weird how many Kokonoe players get confused by this and suddenly think they need to close in - but overall I've found the best way to deal with her is to play annoying and run away a lot, hopefully getting them to commit to something foolish.  Obviously, this works better if you can get yourself a life lead, however.

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Am I the only person still checking this forum? :P

Why isn't there a CF Q&A thread?

What are the first combos I should be putting in time to learn? I've basically been doing abbreviated CP combos so far, and they mostly do okay.

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