[CPEX] Taokaka Gameplay Discussion

[Zekira Drake]

 

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24701320 (the match at 12:36)

 

My hope is coming back, at least...

 

Also, I'm going to love rocking the 5C JC on block. Also 5B2B5B Kreygasm

 

 

 

I mean, let's keep in mind that Tao never really had either corner carry or real oki prior to CP 1.0. Pretty sure that arcsys immediately decided that giving Tao those tools was a mistake.

 

Oh? Didn't know that lol I started with BBCP

[Zekira Drake]

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24701543

 

ESP, aw yeah.

 

So it seems like Tao's normals cancel into almost everything. Chains like B->A->B->C->B seem possible, I think. 3C gets a lot more used now , can serve as the OS for oki or combo, and all 3 hits can be cancelled into any D move, I think. Pushback of a barrierblocked 3C still in range for shorthop shenanigans. 6D approaches are throwing off people, too.

[Myoro]

Looks like Stuff>5C>6C>236C works on crouch.

 

Knowing tao, if we can get them launched we can get them comboed.

 

Just gotta learn what gatlings into 6C.

 

Also is it me or might knockdown on Encore be more useful? I know stagger lets you instantly set up high/low, left/right, and bait DP stuff, But if you can catch the opponent's rolls, you get them airborne where Tao does her greatest work in combos.

[Zekira Drake]

It's definitely useful since it looks like an oki you can easily do from midscreen. This means that Tao will have an easier time getting those now.

 

I also commonly see 3C being able to followed up on, and if not, it becomes an oki itself.
 

Yeah I'm hoping for the air combos pretty soon. Probably involving cat2 now since barely anything links into her air Ds :/

[MashThat5A]

Also is it me or might knockdown on Encore be more useful?

No

[Kirivon]

うぃすらー@蒼争奪戦#30 10/25 ‏@WhislerRV  Oct 14

僕調べなんで怪しいかも？だけどタオカカのフレーム。

5A -2

2A -4

5B -2？

6B猫2スカ +1

6B猫2×2 +3

 

 

6B cat2 whiff +1

6B cat2 x 2 +3

 

 

うぃすらー@蒼争奪戦#30 10/25 ‏@WhislerRV  5h

5 hours ago

5A 発7 全20 攻LV1 F

2A 発6 全20 攻LV1 F

5B 発6 全19 攻LV1 F

2B 発10 全31 攻LV3 N

5C 発11 全32 攻LV3 N

2C 発17 全41 攻LV3 N

6C 発19 全50 N

 

Move : Startup : Total : Attack Level : Starter

5A : ±0 : +1 : No Change : No Change

2A : ±0 : ±0 : No Change : No Change

5B : ±0 : +1 : No Change : No Change

2B : +3 : +2 : LV1 > LV3 : S > N

5C : +1 : -5 : No Change : No Change

2C : +5 : +6 : No Change : No Change

6C : ±0 : -1 : ?? : No Change

 

It's hard to tell the impact on frame advantage since we don't know the active frames, but we can fill in some blanks with the frame advantages from his earlier tweet. I think it's safe to assume 5B is -2 at this point, given that it's picked up an extra frame overall. 2A remains as is. As per initial reports, 2C is a lot slower: picking up 5f on startup and 6f overall. Whether that extra frame is recovery or active remains to be seen.

 

5A, 5C, and 6C are puzzling. 5A retains the same startup and frame advantage, but picks up an extra frame. A possible upgrade from 2 -> 3 active frames? 5C picks up a frame on startup, but loses 5 overall. Maybe we'll see a frame advantage increase of -10 -> -4? 6C also loses a frame overall but I don't see why they'd bother just changing from 29f > 28f recovery (frame advantage -13 -> -12 ). One can only hope they didn't further reduce the active frames. 

 

And then there's 2B. The ridiculous range that 2B now covers didn't come for free; it gains 3f and is now a 10f startup. Even still I like this change, since I feel the current Tao has a bit of a dead zone in the midrange. There was basically nothing between 6C and 2B spacing wise. 5C had marginally more range than 2B, but it certainly wasn't a good poke to be using. While 2B did have more range than 2A I felt their usage overlapped in a lot of instances. 

 

And.. LV3 and normal starter?! I guess that explains this corner combo:

2B>5C>3C>2B>6A>6C>cat jump>J2DB>C>cat2(5)>6C>cat3(1)>encore 3261

 

Side note, here's a chart showing our rejump options from EGO's twitter:

https://twitter.com/egokaka/status/522423156921753600/photo/1

 

ラグナ - Ragna

ジン - Jin

ノエル - Noel

レイチェル - Rachel

タオカカ - Taokaka

テイガー - Tager

ライチ - Litchi

アラクネ - Arakune

バング - Bang

カルル - Carl

ハクメン - Hakumen

v & Λ - Nu & Lambda

ツバキ - Tsubaki

ハザマ＆テルミ - Hazama & Terumi

μ - Mu

マコト - Makoto

ヴァルケン - Valkenhayn

プラチナ - Platinum

レリアス - Relius

イザヨイ - Izayoi

アマネ - Amane

バレット - Bullet

アズラエル - Azrael

カグラ - Kagura 

ココノエ - Kokonoe

セリカ - Celica 

[Myoro]

No

Good to know.

[NeoGio0o]

No

Yes

[MashThat5A]

Yes

Air hit knock down looks actually good in the corner but midscreen you can't vortex well anymore? Air hits don't seem to lead into kd midscreen anymore so rolling means you eat this weak ass 2k combo into neutral. and i doubt you can get a good meaty / roll catch option since 5b got nerfed. idk im probably wrong though since you disagree.

[Kirivon]

Air hit knock down looks actually good in the corner but midscreen you can't vortex well anymore? Air hits don't seem to lead into kd midscreen anymore so rolling means you eat this weak ass 2k combo into neutral. and i doubt you can get a good meaty / roll catch option since 5b got nerfed. idk im probably wrong though since you disagree.

 

5B didn't get nerfed though? Unless you know something I don't. Only change I'm aware of is its frame advantage going from -1 to -2, but that doesn't affect its usage as a meaty. If you watch the matches with ESP, he catches a back roll after encore in the corner with 5B and converts it into 3k, granted with no oki afterwards. I'm not sure if you can catch roll techs midscreen the same way, but if you can probably do 5B > 5C > stuff > cat2(5) > dash > cat3(1) into kd. 

 

Yeah we're losing midscreen vortex, but I never really felt like that was a good option. If you land a crossup j.C or j.2B midscreen you're only getting 2.2k out of it without meter--even if you go super optimal and do j.2D~B > 2C > H5C > jc > cat2 > j.D~A > j.4D~x. Given that damage output there's no way your opponent isn't just going to mash buttons once you take to the air and once you're up there j.anything will lose to basically every anti-air or anti-air normal in the game. IMO 1.1 Tao's reliance on air-to-ground for damage, in a game with incredibly strong anti-air options, is a large part of the reason she routinely shows up near the bottom of Japanese tier lists.

 

As for the new encore, I'm still kind of on the fence. Watching Isa's play and he never once punishes a roll tech after encore midscreen. If it is possible to autopilot 5B roll punishes midscreen, like Noel's 2B after 22B oki, then new encore might be pretty good. Since once you take away the roll tech, you have the entirety of the 32f neutral tech to prepare a meaty instead of the 4 frames of advantage after 1.1 encore. Either way though, we'll be losing the ability to autopilot oki and j.C crossup in the corner. For the time being I think it's safe to say it's a nerf.

[MashThat5A]

oh i thought the advantage was because they added recovery

[Kirivon]

oh i thought the advantage was because they added recovery

 

They did, but it was only 1 frame to the overall animation. So, provided the active frames didn't change, it's 10f recovery (up from 9f). Sorry, was a little vague when I mentioned frame advantage rather than recovery. Basically meant to say that 1f recovery shouldn't make any difference when being used as a meaty.

[LaowPing]

Anyone else notice all the jump loops tao has been doing to standing opponents during combos? Haven't seen those get much use since Extend

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1gvz1k0STQ&feature=youtu.be

 

Also, holy crap, reverse chains. Feels like under night all over again.

[Kirivon]

 

CP2 Tao doesn't jump as high, perhaps part of the reason cat2 is easier to combo into?

[Myoro]

Low jumps might mean jump loops work on more people!

 

That millimeter may may a big impact. Rising stuff that didn't work might work sooner, falling stuff might also happen sooner. Only time and discovery will tell.

 

Anyone know if this is a universal change or not?

[NeoGio0o]

Air hit knock down looks actually good in the corner but midscreen you can't vortex well anymore? Air hits don't seem to lead into kd midscreen anymore so rolling means you eat this weak ass 2k combo into neutral. and i doubt you can get a good meaty / roll catch option since 5b got nerfed. idk im probably wrong though since you disagree.

Encore forcing crouch had so much recovery that your options afterwards were limited and was just a better 236AAAA, 5D-A in regards of vortex potential. If you watch some footage you can see that she recovers before the completion of the crumple animation and is able to jump before the opponent can tech. This potentially leads to her having a safejump option against the cast. Even if you remove safejump potential she now has a safer option in swapping sides from a midscreen position and is opened up to more mixup options (can go for late IAD mixup as oppose to relying on just 6B for overhead options).

 

Allowing the opponent freedom of tech is good because it can lead to free damage if you know what you are doing. Look at all great oki options in BB and notice that all of them gave the opponent the option to tech in whatever way they want, but the reality was that the only safe option they had was to netural tech. I'm sure you have seen numerous situations in which a high level player roll/delayed their tech and got punished for it. Against a low level player you get free damage and at high level play you get opportunities to alter the pace of the match.

 

This combined with J.236BBB wallbounce is great for matchups where you are looking to timeout. The extent of 5B, 5C roll tech pick ups has yet to be explored and I can't say we will get massive damage, but I have seen 5B, 5a, 5a, 5a, 6a give some crazy corner carry and positioning. So long as you get 6D-B after the wallsplat you have solid oki options.

 

Worst case scenario you take the free damage and return to neutral which I like better because Tao's pressure without respect is horrible and the reward she gets off CH is too low.

[MashThat5A]

from what i can tell from tsujikawa matches it isn't even worth it to kd when you have jump loop shenanigans / crouch confirms 

[Myoro]

Does jump loop work on everyone now? =3

[MashThat5A]

the only character that it doesn't work on is plat. everyone else is on the chart a few post sup

[Myoro]

That makes me extremely happy. Jump loop was my favorite in CSE, but back then I got 5K from 5B with it so...

 

What's the reward on it now? what's the reward on crouch confirms now? S or N starters.

[Kirivon]

from what i can tell from tsujikawa matches it isn't even worth it to kd when you have jump loop shenanigans / crouch confirms 

 

Kind of feel like he was riding that a little too hard, eventually people are going to figure out that j.2B in a jump loop frame traps and will stop trying to mash out. It's like at the start of CP when you could frametrap people by autopiloting into 6C, but now you try that and that's a DP for free.

 

I see people talking about ESP and Tsujikawa matches here yet I've never found them, can someone link them or something?

 

The ESP matches I was referring to were from the link you posted. As for the Tsujikawa matches, I'll organize these in a video thread this weekend, but for now:

http://youtu.be/1e98sEB951M?t=1h26m14s

 

 

That makes me extremely happy. Jump loop was my favorite in CSE, but back then I got 5K from 5B with it so...

 

What's the reward on it now? what's the reward on crouch confirms now? S or N starters.

 

Rejump combos are doing 1.6-2k depending on the starter and proximity to the corner. You can't really do crouch confirm off of S starters, other than comboing into 6C > Cat3 > Encore to do a little bit more damage. Crouch confirming 2A > 2B > 5C > 6C > Cat3 > Encore does 1688 (confirmed) damage. 2A > 2B > 5B > 5C > 2C > Cat1 > Encore should do about 1493 (calculated).

 

2B > 5B > 5C > 6C > Cat3x2 > Cat2x5 > j.Bx2 > j.D~6 > j.4D(1) does 2692 (confirmed). If you're wondering why nobody is using the shiny Cat2x4 > j.8D > Cat2x4 > j.D > Cat2x5 debuted in the famitsu video: according to my calculations it would only bring the damage in this combo to about 2800. So, until a better option is discovered, people are doing j.B(2) > j.D~6 > j.4D(1)~B to get corner push. As far as I can tell Cat2 is 220 damage per hit, 85 P2 (applied on the first hit only), and 985 damage on the final hit (no minimum damage), but I need to do some more testing.

 

2B is our best starter for crouch confirms since it is now 85 P1 / 89 P2, where our jump attacks remain at 80 P1. I'm still a little iffy on how Cat2's proration is being calculated, but I'm 99.99% sure on 2B (oh, and did I mention 2B does 460 damage now?). I still need to do a little more testing before I feel comfortable releasing the full numbers, but Tao has received tweaks to Damage/P1/P2 on pretty much every move in her repitoire. I've looked at everything except trick edge, throw, taunt, and 4D so far. Of the moves I've looked at, the only ones that remain unchanged are 5C, 2C, and j.A.

[9:02 PM]

I think the thing about the new j. A properties is that it turns a blocked cat jump j. 2b/j. C into basically a 50/50 fuzzy with rising j. A or a low, but it seems to woork on more characters.

I'm surprised people don't seem to be using 6D. I assumed it was a high since it looks like 4D, but maybe it's not?

[coil]

hi, i play with litchi a lot and looking for a video of galileo playing cp2... i got this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBE9s_b31Lg its incredible the pressure and the PANIC of galileo xddd

[Zekira Drake]

Speaking of ESP though http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24814719 08:30 onwards

[Zekira Drake]

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24859589

 

According to this, 6D~B confirms into 2A. Also dat third round

 

6B->j.236BB seems to confirm too.

 

Matches like these though are what make me really scared that Taokaka's main weaknesses are pretty much her health and damage :/