Structuring Pressure

[DJ_Blactricity]

I'm completely lost on this, and need help. I've played blazblue for a while, but my pressure has always been weak. How should one go about structuring pressure? What are the key things I need to know?

[GKHiryu]

Learn strings - what move can be chained to what. Check what specials or normals are 0 or plus on block or give some other advantage. Normals that you can jump cancel are also important to look for. You can use them to quickly airdash if they have a lot of range, or just jump cancel for a quick overhead. Then, check if any moves have good enough range to poke with after you're outside of effective pressure range.

 

Then you can start going from flowchart (2A>B>C>Special/Dash/airdash > 2A>OH/Throw) to more complicated stuff. Like frame data and thus frame traps or some risky RC shanenigans. If you want some more detailed answer, just ask.

 

Also if you tell us what character you want to play it's gonna get easier. I know your sig shows Jin, but it's always worth to provide as much info as possible when asking for help.

 

ninja edit: sorry didn't read that it's not about GGXrd, edited.

[DJ_Blactricity]

I play jin, and I mean structuring pressure with regards to good decision-making and risk/reward.

Pretty much what SKD was getting at in this post: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php/topic/9540-cp-news-and-gameplay-discussion-20/?p=905971

[susano]

I'm glad I'm not the only one with this problem. I know the combos, setups, and at times spacing. But my pressure has always been a weakpoint. I'd like to hear other opinions as well.

[edollarports]

J u s t d o i t

Don't do too much wacky shit? Be aware of all your options? Remember you're dealing with a human being? idk stuff 

[Tong]

It's a very common misconception to associate pressure with blockstrings only, when the latter is just a part of what constitutes pressure as a whole. Pressure is any given situation where you have the upper hand and your opponent's options are severely limited. Of course there are varying degrees of pressure, where your opponent may have good, bad  or no immediate options at all to deal with it. So there will never be a situation where you have the absolute advantage all the time.

 

So before we talk about blockstrings, usually where pressure is more intense, learning how to enforce pressure after ending combos is very very important, specially in BlazBlue where many wake up options exist. The best outcome is often making your opponent neutral tech, because you will have better control over him/her.

I wont get into specifics, but CPE Jin is designed in a way that you can easily and safely punish other wake up options such as delay back/forward roll and quick wakeup, so it should be simple. After a combo the situation usually comes down to 2 options for your opponent, Block or Reversal. The Risk/Reward here is in Jin's favor because he doesnt necessarialy need to commit to start his blockstrings. Even when he doesnt force the opponent to block right away he can still control the situation post knockdown/oki.

 

Now about the blockstrings, which is probably why you made this topic. I'll try keep it more universal and less specific.

You can create blockstrings for specific purposes and they all have their usefulness. Sometimes a blockstring full of tiny gaps to punish mashers is better, sometimes a tight blockstring full of lows and safe is better, sometimes a blockstring full of huge gaps and that resets into a new blockstring is better... But they're all important, and this is where the good decision making and risk/reward comes in, because all of them have advantages and weaknesses, and it's up to you to decide which one works better for the opponent or character you're fighting.

 

If we're talking about Jin, he has all those kinds of blockstrings and good normals that gives him strong options. 5B is by far his most important normal, it's fast, chains/cancels into many other moves (including throws), it's -6 on block, and even though it can be punished, Jin remains advantageous because it's very very risky to disrespect it.

Jin's Throw game is very strong and vital for a strong pressure game, it's arguably one of his best tools. Just watch Fenrich and how he gets Throw Reject Misses like a champ!

 

Jin's pressure becomes alot more scarier when you add Throws to the equation, so work on Jin's Throw game and you will be a real threat

 

Edit: Correction about 5B's frame advantage

[Putin]

^ Correction, 5B has been -6 since vanilla CP iirc. So you can't really use it as a safe way to reset pressure, even though it's still important since it vacuums, gatlings into 2B/6A and stuff

[Tong]

Ops that is correct, 5B is -6 now. My fault for playing CSEX all the time on PC lol.

Still a good and useful tool anyways.

[Dark Ranger88]

Using stagger pressure in blockstrings has also always been one of my weaknesses too.

 

 

Sometimes a blockstring full of tiny gaps to punish mashers is better, 

 

For a long while I didn't know how to implement this strategy properly. 

 

For the longest time I was doing stuff like this: 2A > 2A > *2A > 2B > 5B > *5C > 5CC (* indicates a gap in the blockstring). 

 

I thought that you needed a couple of airtight normals after a frametrap in order to properly confirm if your opponent got hit or not. I thought that if you left a gap in between each attack that your normals wouldn't combo, even if your opponent got hit. 

 

Later though, I looked at the frame data a little more closely and realized that hitstun lasts one frame longer than blockstun does (on almost all attacks). Meaning if you had perfectly timed staggers that left only a one frame gap, all of your attacks would still combo if your opponent happened to get hit. But then I realized that (most of the time) people are crouching while blocking, and crouching hitstun gives you 2 more frames to work with when staggering. So really you can leave a 1-3 frame gap and all of your attacks will still combo. So once you get the timing down, you can do strings like this:

 

2A > *2A > *2A > *2B > *5B > *5C > *3C etc

 

Now you have like 5 attacks in a row that will catch mashers and still combo. And once you get respect from your opponent, you can reset pressure frequently and toss in some throws/lows/overheads/gimmicks. Training mode can help immensely in learning how to time your staggers too. There is a little green hitstun bar that will appear whenever you hit your opponent. If you work on timing your attacks so that the green bar is almost empty when the next attack connects you can commit the stagger timing to your muscle memory pretty quickly. I recommend starting out with just jabs then adding more attacks in once you get their timing down. 

[DJ_Blactricity]

Im not looking for blockstrings. Read SKD's post I linked. Im trying to learn good implementation cause I just do stuff. Risk/reward and the like just goes over my head. I want to grasp the basic theory on these things, and apply it to my game.

[Tong]

Yea, I read that. He basically talks about using moves in your pressure that won't let you too disadvantaged. The Risk/Reward bit is about not using moves that will get you nowhere (like Jin's 6A without meter).

But even if I, or anyone else, tried to keep it simple so you may understand what he said, then the original meaning of that message would be lost, so just read and read again calmly.

However we can address to this:

 

Im trying to learn good implementation cause I just do stuff.

 

Why do you just "do stuff"? What are you exactly aiming for when you pressure? Are you trying to actually land something, or just checking your opponent's behaviors to draw a conclusion? Are you familiar with Jin's blockstrings and pressure enough to know which moves should be used as an answer to whatever your opponent does?

Knowing all this beforehand is what will make you understand Risk/Reward applied in pressure better.

[Airk]

Step 1: think about what you want to do. (strategy not moves)

Step 2: decide on a way to do it

Step 3: do it. :p

I honestly don't think that the question you are asking can be usefully answered.

[TD]

Yes, it can. This is a game of math. As such, it can be exactly answered. What is more abstract is the strategy itself. Structuring pressure to be every possible answer though, is possible, even if a particular character cannot do this. Jin can beat pretty much everyone's options with a little effort on top of making people play his game once he is in.

Black I do feel like you ask this question or something similar every three months or maybe there is some other stimulant that provoked you to ask, but the answers will never change really because they are already right. Pressure is structured based on what you think your foe is going to do, and if you don't know what that is, you take educated guesses based off what past foes have done, all the while using your safest bets. The goal in the beginning of fighting someone new or someone you have t played in awhile is to gather information on their offense and defense. You need to start treating matches like real life-or-death street fights. You wouldn't rush in on someone if you didn't know what they were going to do, they might pull out a shank at the last minute, then again they might just try to dodge. But the point is, whatever they do you need to be carefully observing every minute detail.

Call it out loud. They backdash, say it. They jump, say it. Counter assault, say it. Get used to doing this as it will sharpen your observational skills and help you predict what the foe will do, and counter. This is called "leading", as in, you are setting the pace, forcing the foe to ride in your turbulence until you say stop. Pressure becomes less of a guess the more information you have on the character and player, and the more potent you are and using the information to your advantage.

As for what exactly you should be doing once you get pressure started, whether you know what they are doing or not: an old, retired member named dragontamer, whom I still hold on high regard, made an effective list a few years ago, detailing what exact options each character has at any given point defending. This is a universal list, but of course, some things vary such as back dash timings, dp timings, and poke timings. This is a general skeleton, and it is up to you to do the testing and see what works. I challenge you to find these things in top players like fenrich's matches: you may learn more after reading this and seeing videos than you have before.

---

Hmm, looks like it was deleted when this forum upgraded some time ago. No matter, I will just have to make it myself if I cannot discover it again here. It may take awhile, maybe 24 hours. More or less. You can look forward to this post being edited.

[TD]

Found it

I would have done a double post but the original is already long enough. It's his entire post put out since not only was the list useful, but what else he had to say was also useful. This emphasizes safety until you can get a proper read on your opponent. Be advised that as this is an old list it is slightly outdated: jumps, for example, are more of the same in terms of startup across the board than it used to be.

BTW: Don't get so focused on high / low mixups. In BlazBlue, outside of certain situations... the high/low mixup game is slow enough that good players can react to it. Personally, I focus on the strike-strike mixup in BlazBlue. Of course, Noel Vermillion has a terrible high/low game, so I guess its more like I'm forced into the strike-strike mixup.

It goes like this:

Find a block loop. For example, 2A 2A -> 66 -> 2A 2A -> 66 -> 2A 2A is fairly universal in this game. This isn't safe, this is just a starting point. If your opponent blocks, you "tie" with your opponent. IE: your loop continues and this can go on as long as your opponent continues to block. For me, Noel's block loop is 5A 5A -> 665A 5A -> 665A 5A -> etc. etc.

The whole point of a block loop is to invite your opponent to push buttons. Its not safe, but nothing is safe.

Under this situation, your opponent has the following options:

1. Jump Escape

2. Backdash

3. Spam Jabs / Throws / Slower Invincibility

4. Spam Dragon Punch / Supers / Instant Invincibility

5. Block

6. Barrier Block

7. Instant-block

These options are beaten by:

1. Solid Blockstring Lows (if your opponent holds up, he isn't holding down. IE: he's blocking high), or 2-frametrap (vs Arakune / Litchi) or 3-frametraps (vs everyone else) or 5-frametraps (vs Tager). Also, IAD -> Airgrab works.

2. Meaty attacks or Multi-hits. For example, Noel's 6C. Be sure you can hitconfirm this, most opponents are airborne if hit while backdashing.

3. Frametrap into a counter-hit. For example, Noel's 2A -> 5C is a good frametrap in CS1.

4. Block then punish

5. Continue your loop

6. Continue your loop, modified such that you can keep the pressure vs Barrier Guards.

7. Switch up your rhythm slightly. Because your opponent isn't in blockstun, he'll probably backdash instead of instantblock. Then, you can punish the backdash.

IMO, THIS is the primary mixup game in Blazblue that I usually play. In addition, you throw in high/low/throw mixups, but it is only effective AFTER you master strike-strike mixup. At least, for all characters with a dash. Hakumen doesn't have a loop that I know of, so all of his strike-strike mixup options are much shorter, and don't involve any loops.

Afterall, your opponent isn't going to block unless he is forced to block. You need to learn to punish your opponent's escape attempts. First, force your opponent to block. That is to say, make his safest option to block. Once blocking is his safest option, THEN start throwing in the mixup attempts.

[mAc Chaos]

Basically you should think of what you want to actually do with the pressure in each situation: stop them from jumping out? Lock them in blockstun? Set up a mixup? Etc. Then you decide what the strings should be.

 

It sounds like you just run in there without knowing why and start doing random moves hoping something will happen. There's your problem.

[Airk]

Found it

I would have done a double post but the original is already long enough. It's his entire post put out since not only was the list useful, but what else he had to say was also useful. This emphasizes safety until you can get a proper read on your opponent. Be advised that as this is an old list it is slightly outdated: jumps, for example, are more of the same in terms of startup across the board than it used to be.

 

 

Only that doesn't really answer the question at all. o.o

 

It's like someone asked you how to drive a car and you said "Turn when you need to turn, push the pedals to go faster and slower, and if necessary shift gears."  It's all TRUE and it's all PART of driving a car, but putting it together won't teach you to drive.

[Dark Ranger88]

I think it would help us if Blactricity told us what he actually does during pressure and how his opponents respond to beat it.

 

You say you just press "stuff"...but what buttons do you ACTUALLY press when you've knocked an opponent down and you want to open them up?

 

Like if you knocked me down midscreen and I neutral teched, what blockstring would you use against me?

[TD]

I'm not often confused but I feel like I need to say this:

What?

You're telling me that teaching the very fundamentals of something will not help in the bigger picture? I don't even.

That's not even a great analogy. A car is a car, and if I'm reading your post correctly and going by what most people use cars for, it's for basic transportation. We're not drag racing here, we're not NASCAR, this isn't even bumper cars. My point being, there IS not advanced psychology in driving. You learn how to drive and be done with it, and if you stagnate, so what? Get where you're going and try not to crash: the game. It isn't a competition like fighting games. Though I do get what you mean I find the concept of cars irrelevant.

But to say that doesn't answer the question... You must be tired. This fully answers the question. Each option a person has on defense is listed here with nothing left out minus each individual's frame data, which I am leaving to the masses to figure out on their own. The whole point of structuring pressure in an efficient manner is to BREAK the opponent's defense. What is incorrect about that?

I really do not understand your point, and I apologize if I sound harsher than normal, but that has definitely taken me by surprise. doesnt answer the question? I really would like if you elaborate for clarity.

At dark ranger, I agree, maybe a more full blockstring would help directly, but with this list and his brains I'm sure at this point he can figure out what he is doing to affect his pressure negatively. Though out of curiously, I would like to know too.

From what I played, pressure doesn't seem to bad. He mixed it up often enough in our matches and I was appropriately frazzled. And I have to hold everyone's pressure because Rachel. Maybe a particular player gave him trouble, maybe dp's or fuzzy jumps which I have yet to implement, has given him trouble elsewhere. Black would you mind explaining?

[Hollysmoke]

TD's post was pretty spot on, what else could you ask for? You have to figure out what your opponent might prefer to do and home in on shutting them down with the appropriate response. Some people will always wake-up throw so you can bait it out and punish. Some will chicken block, punish according to that. They just want to respect and block? You throw or keep blockstrings going. 

[greatfernman]

You're just telling him what to do, you're not telling him what to /do/

[TD]

But he asked for help, not someone to hold his hand the way through too. That would be patronizing to assume he doesn't know what to do for pressure at all with his character just because he asked this, in my honest opinion. He has the Jin forums if he wants a more educated answer on what Jin personally can do vs each character's options, and because of that, I don't think I need to add that in as well. They would be better suited on telling him exactly what to do each second of the match, not me or anyone else that isn't an educated Jin player.

However, we are kind of going into that topic soon, even if it is sort of off-topic here, for the sake of helping.

Even still, this list does actually give insight on both basic and advanced degrees of what you should be doing. I mean... It's every defensive option with a way to beat each option. I really do not know what else could be said outside of a general strategy, but strategy always shifts. Defensive options, while they vary, will not shift. It is imperative to build a house from the foundation up and not start from the roof down.

Edit: I also talked a little about strategy anyway, in the first post I made.

I know my posts tend to be a little on the long side, but I really try to give the best answer I possibly can when asked. It is important to read everything through just in case there is something you haven't known before, or even if I need correcting.

[DJ_Blactricity]

My problem is I struggle opening up players like SKD, Nineball, Hanzo, Hoshi, LostSoul, etc., and I've been told multiple times I need to learn pressure structure. I haven't been getting anywhere on my own though. I went back and read SKD's post that I linked, and it hit me that I completely disregard risk/reward and I don't implement things well so I decided to make this thread to gain a better understanding on pressuring and reading my opponent by making good decisions based on risk/reward. So far, It's made me realize I lack a focused purpose when pressuring. My only goal is to get a hit anyway I can, and confirm it. I don't setup mixups either I just go for them.

Also, I cant really tell you all what blockstrings I use. They just happen. You would have to play a set with me to see.

[mAc Chaos]

So you have no self awareness when you play. You have to be conscious of what you're doing or you won't figure out your mistakes. How can you if you don't even know what you're doing, literally?

 

It sounds like you're playing on auto pilot. Do you think about specific things to do or do you just zone out and play?

 

Anyway if you want a cookbook for every single possible situation, there isn't one. You have to figure that out yourself through play experience and experimentation. What people here can do is point out the concepts missing in your game and if you go to specific subforums, which tactics and blockstrings are sound to use.

 

I myself don't have a set list of blockstrings I use; I improvise based on the opponent and situation. But each move I do during the string has a purpose.

[greatfernman]

The secret to opening skd up is to make him not take you seriously/complacent/drunk and to do random, stupid shit with lopsided risk reward

Note this only works in casuals

Also not sure if possible online

Alternatively play him in gg cause he's free

[mAc Chaos]

just put something in his drink