Tong Report post Posted July 4, 2015 Hi, is Belial Edge driving you nuts because it just doesnt seem consistent and you connect it wrong every single time? If yes, you're in the right place! In this thread I'll try to keep it simple and explain, through examples and practical combos, how to connect Belial Edge consistently on all characters. In reality, Belial Edge is only an issue on a small number of characters, and they're pretty easy to remember, so this means it's possible to be consistent with it on every character! Now then... 1- General Guidelines First and foremost, what is the definition of ideal positioning for Belial Edge? According to the Ragna 101 FAQ: "Basically, the opponent needs to be above you by slightly less than the maximum possible amount required to land the first hit." In other words, more often than not, the sweet spot is usually above Ragna (you) but enough to connect the first hit of Belial Edge. Hard to picture? Then take a look at these pictures. They are 3 possible, and common, scenarios where position can make a big difference between landing a sucessful Belial or not. One picture shows the optimal position, and the other 2 wrong positions (too low/too high in relation to the opponent). If you click in any of them you'll be redirected to an animation for their respective outcomes. Try guessing which one is the correct before clicking! It's worth mentioning that while Ragna isnt particularly hard to hit, he's one of the few cases where hitting BE too low results in a failure (check the first picture). On characters like Jin and Hazama, hitting BE very low, just 1 pixel away from making it whiff, will still result in success. When practicing combos have Ragna as a dummy and get the timing down using him as a base, so it may easier to adjust your timing accordingly versus the "exceptions" (specific characters). So there you have it, this how usually the ideal position looks like. 2- Belial in combos It's no secret that Belial in combos are important because most of Ragna's damaging and optimal routes use that move. However that's not always the case, there are combos where Belial can be discarded (regular meterless midscreen confirms) just because there are easier and better combos that yields the same and sometimes greater benefits. For punish combos, crouching combos, RC combos and corner combos that's another story. Not using BE on those combos means sacrificing some damage, and that could make a difference in a real match. So, get it down! 2.1- Common routes There are many, many ways to connect Belial Edge in a combo. In fact listing all of them wouldnt even be practical because each character can react in a different way to each of them. Instead let's focus on the most common ways a BE can be used in a combo and how to make them work properly on every character. Assume Ragna is midscreen unless stated otherwise. xx 6C (JC)> j.C> j.214C Staple route for Ragna's most damaging combos. Relatively easy to adjust and works on most characters. It's usually done by jumping immediately after 6C, delaying j.C and performing Belial. On most characters there should be no issues, but surprisingly it can be tricky on Ragna! When delaying j.C make sure you hit with it after Ragna's jumping peak. If I had to put into numbers, where 0 is the earliest point of the jump and 100 where the dummy techs, j.C> j.214C would work at 60~90. xx 2D (RC)> 6C (JC)> j.C> j.214C Same theory as the previous string, but the opponent is launched higher by OTG 6C. Because of the extra height caused by the OTG, the opponent will be slightly above you in relation to the previous string. This effectively means you have to delay j.C slightly more to compesate the extra height. Still assuming those "timing numbers", j.C> j.214C would work at 65~95 in this case. xx 2D (RC)> 6C> delay 6D (JC)> j.C> j.214C The 6D makes a huge difference in combo damage (can be as much as 300!). Again, jump (canceling) after 6D and delaying j.C is still the easiest way to adjust your timing. You must delay 6D in a way that, when jump canceling off it, the opponent stays above you during j.C, that should be done after the jump's peak. And yes, this a difficult one and the timing is strict on Ragna. In the Corner All those routes are easier and reliable in the corner because horizontal pushback is no longer a factor. The secret is just to position yourself right below your opponent, execute j.C> j.214C and that's it! Really, if you can get the midscreen confirms down and consistently, then it shouldn't be a problem combo'ing in the corner. Now, I talked about the Good (damage), the Bad (difficult) and now about the Ugly (Specifics). 2.2- Specific Characters Guess what... none of those work on certain characters yaay! They are: Rachel, Makoto, Noel, Carl, Amane, Taokaka and Azrael. In Azrael's and Amane's case, they all work but the timing is different. On them delay j.C, like, alot. Against Taokaka you have to be slightly aligned with her, in a similar manner of executing pre-CPE Belial. As for the rest, the timing is so difficult and specific that it's better to use other ways. These are the other ways. Remember, I'm talking about midscreen confirms here. xx 6C (JC)> j.214C Simple as that, jump and do a raw Belial. Either neutral or forward jump is fine and there are no specific timings here, but make sure Ragna reaches the peak of his jump. Works on all problematic characters and others as well, but this does less damage . xx 6C> delay 6D (JC)> j.214C If you're having issues with the previous string, try this one. Delay 6D alot and take note that the Belial here is actually a TK. Now that you have essentially mastered the timing on Ragna and knows the specific characters, a difficult chart can be made to conclude that Belial midscreen aint so bad for most part! This is my personal opinion of course, maybe you're an execution God and has no problems landing even the most difficult and tight combos... 3- Difficulty per character I kinda know which characters have less or specific timings, and fact, there are characters who will never let you drop the combo. [table]CharacterDifficultyJinEasiestCelica-Litchi-Kokonoe-Bullet-Murakumos-Kagura-Platinum-Hakumen-Hazama-Terumi-Valkenhayn-RagnaAverageBang-Tsubaki-Relius-Izayoi-Amane-Azrael-TagerToughest[/table] And that sums everything up (kinda)! Didnt want to get too specific about this, tried to keep it simple (and it is) but feel free to post any questions, suggestions, corrections etc... this is a discussion board Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WolfCrimson Report post Posted July 30, 2015 About Noel, i found that hitting her with any j.X normal causes her to align her body horizontally, which makes Belial whiff if you do it below her waist, except in the corner, and belial wont prop her up if you do it above that. So midscreen only 6C > 6D jc j214 works, and maybe even 6C into raw belial.but that's harder to pull off. It seems like you gotta pay attention to how the characters' bodies align with the hit prior to belial to get it to work. Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WolfCrimson Report post Posted July 30, 2015 Tong, I found another route for belial midscreen, it has the same character specifics as the other midscreen belial routes: 6C> slight delay HJC > jB > jC > belial The delay of the HJC is easy to visually time; Ragna's sword has a sort of afterimage on the second upward swing of 6C. Time the HJC as soon as you see the afterimage disappear. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tong Report post Posted August 2, 2015 About Noel, i found that hitting her with any j.X normal causes her to align her body horizontally, which makes Belial whiff if you do it below her waist, except in the corner, and belial wont prop her up if you do it above that. So midscreen only 6C > 6D jc j214 works, and maybe even 6C into raw belial.but that's harder to pull off. It seems like you gotta pay attention to how the characters' bodies align with the hit prior to belial to get it to work.Yes, some character's hurtbox can make the first hit of Belial whiff when pushed back by a move, making any j.X> Belial midscreen impossible. Noel and Makoto are the most noticeable and severe cases but it can happen to other characters (every character below "Average" on my table, except Valk).For Noel and Makoto 6C into raw jump neutral Belial works better (at least for me). I also forgot to mention some universal midscreen strings, like airhit 5B> 5C (HJC)> j.B> j.C> j.D (f.JC)> j.214C. 6A (JC)> delay airdash j.B> j.214C (j.B is not IAD'd) is another string that works the same way on everyone, but I preffer the midscreen Dead Spike routes for obvious reasons (easier/universal/efficient). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tong Report post Posted November 14, 2015 I was going to post here originally but the forum was pretty slow and I really wanted to write about this otherwise I'd lose the will to do so. It's a copy and pasta from my original evernotes. So before BBCF becomes a thing it's better to post now. There's another topic here about BE but this one covers midscreen BE confirms. Anything here is open to discussion and subject to changes. tl;dr just look at the table. Introduction These notes will basically provide guidelines and methods to connect Belial Edge (BE) midscreen on different characters. Even though it's not an essential part of Ragna's combos for most part, in fact it's possible to live without it, aiming for the highest damage possible can still be a desireable goal for gameplay improvements. However due to it's apparent inconsistency many players seeking such improvements can be discouraged from using it at all in midscreen combos, opting to more safe and consistent combos since dropping combos can have a steep cost, specially in higher levels. The inconsistency stems from the lack of "universal ways" to connect BE across all characters. Each character has unique hitbox/hurtbox interactions that require specific ways to land BE sucessfully. Despite the existence of easier and more consistent options, using Belial Edge in combos has its advantages such as considerable damage improvement (up to ~16% total) and additional screen carry. Both can make a huge difference in a match. The purpose of these notes are to help and understand better how to get BE midscreen consistently on each character. 1. Definitions The table provided below contains 5 typical BE strings divided in 5 columns and all characters present in BlazBlue: ChronoPhantasma EXTEND divided in 26 rows. There are actually 28 characters in the game, but 4 share the same hitboxes/hurtboxes so for these purposes we have 26 characters. Each character has 5 BE strings with notes/guidelines called Adjustments. But before we get to it, let's first understand what each of these notations mean. 1.1 BE strings Fact, there are countless ways to combo into BE... so many that listing them all would be impractical. The strings listed here either offer the best compromise between "Damage" and "Consistency". It's not in our interests to use a BE string that only works on a single character or one that works on most but sacrifices too much damage and doesnt work off certain starters. Gauntlet Hades is the most common move used in a midscreen combo and is very important for BE combos. It's a very versatile move that can be easily combo'd into and puts Ragna in a good position to follow up with more moves. It's a vital move for BE combos. This is how a typical BE midscreen combo looks like: 5B> 6A> Gauntlet Hades (GH)>> Spin Kick> dash 5B> 5C> (BE string)> Etc Or, Gauntlet Hades (GH)>> Spin Kick (KA)> dash 5B> 5C> (BE String)> Ender The BE String could be any of the 5 listed below. There are differences between each, besides character specifics, and some BE Strings can only be used in certain combos. 1.1.1 TK BE TK is short for Tiger Knee, that is, an aerial move performed at the lowest possible height. TK BE usually leads to better damage and uses the least combo time, allowing more combo extensions. It usually must be done early in a combo, at late parts untechable/time decay will no longer make 5C> TK BE possible. 1.1.2 j.B> j.C> BE Also contributes to better damage in combos. Very easy to perform and works on many characters more easily than TK BE. 1.1.3 Neutral hj.D> BE An odd string that is used on characters that refuse to get hit by the prior strings. 1.1.4 hj.B> j.C> j.D (f.JC)> delay BE (f.JC) stands for Forward Jump Cancel. Most "universal" BE string there is. Works on virtually every character and has huge screen carry. The only drawback is that the excessive moves results in lower overall damage and uses too much combo time. When in doubt, use this string! 1.1.5 6A (HJC)> j.C (JC)> j.C> BE Another, but less, "universal" BE string. Compared to the previous string this one is easier to perform. 1.1.6 Damage comparison Which one leads to more damage? Ignoring Character Specifics these are the results: 5B> 6A> GH>> KA> dash 5B> 5C> TK BE> 5C> 6A> TK BS> dash 5B> 5C> 5D> DID, Damage: 3546 5B> 6A> GH>> KA> dash 5B> 5C> j.B> j.C> BE> 5C> 6A> TK BS> dash 5B> 5C> DID, Damage: 3518 5B> 6A> GH>> KA> dash 5B> 5C> Neutral hj.D> BE> 5C> 6A> TK BS> dash 5B> 5C> 5D> DID, Damage: 3421 5B> 6A> GH>> KA> dash 5B> 5C> hj.B> j.C> j.D (f.JC)> delay BE> 5C> 5D> DID, Damage: 3345 5B> 6A> GH>> KA> dash 5B> 5C> 6A (HJC)> j.C (JC)> j.C> BE> 5B> 5C> 5D> DID, Damage: 3518 1.2 Timings The combo notations alone aren't enough to tell how to connect BE. For example they don't tell how much GH has to be delayed or how to dash 5B properly, and these tiny bits of information are the difference between success or failure! However using absolute terms such as "delay" this or that just complicate things even more, because we're talking about character specifics and different circumstances can make that "delay" fail in a specific position or situation. That's why relative terms are better to describe these BE specifics. 1.2.1 Gauntlet Hades>> Spin Kick Timing This is very important! GH>> KA launches the opponent into the air, simple. But how much the follow up is delayed makes a huge difference! Grounded opponents To sum things up, the more you delay KA, the earlier Ragna can land for the next attack to hit the opponent. Now there's another way to think about this: "The more KA is delayed, the higher an opponent can get hit." It works the other way around too: "The less KA is delayed, the lower an opponent can get hit." So: For max delayed KA the opponent will be above Ragna. For a delayed KA the opponent will be above Ragna, but less than max delayed KA. For a brief delayed KA the opponent will be aligned with Ragna. Airborne opponents The principle is exactly the same but there's a difference... to keep it simple, airborne GH>>KA adds more height to the opponents. A max delayed KA on airborne opponents will launch the opponent way above Ragna. A delayed KA on airborne opponents will launch the opponent above Ragna, around the same height as a max delayed KA on grounded opponents. This principle shouldn't be hard to understand, so let's move on. 1.2.2 Dash 5B Timing Because being close to the opponent is often needed to land BE (unless stated otherwise), the dash 5B can be necessary. Just like delaying KA, the timing on dash 5B can make a big difference. Typically after a max delayed KA, Ragna has plenty of time to dash 5B, that can vary from immediate to very delayed. An immediate dash 5B after max delayed KA results in hitting the opponent at greater heights. Delaying the dash 5B enough results in hitting the opponent at lower heights. An immediate dash 5B after a brief delayed KA is the only way to hit the opponent, since delaying dash 5B can make the opponent hit the floor and tech, and always results in a lower hitting 5B. In other words, take in account how much KA has been delayed (and how high/low the opponent is) and dash 5B accordingly. 1.3 Adjustments Now that we understand how to time those moves properly and how it changes the results, we can finally understand better and talk about character specific adjustments for each type of BE String. This is probably why you're reading this! 1.3.1 High hitting The opponent must be above Ragna. It's important to dash 5B as deep as possible so Ragna can be almost underneath the opponent, the most favourable position for a sucessful BE. A High hitting adjustment can be achieved in many ways, as explained before: (Ground) GH>> max delay KA> immediate dash 5B (Air hit) GH>> max delay KA> delay dash 5B (Air hit)GH>> delay KA> immediate dash 5B The height requirement may differ slightly from character to character. Some may need to be hit a little higher or lower than others, but both are still High hitting adjustments. While others have very strict height requirements... High hitting adjustments can be very finnicky. 1.3.2 Low hitting The opponent must be aligned with Ragna. This adjustment is particularly easier than a High hitting, because there are a number of ways to achieve a Low hitting dash 5B. (Ground) GH>> max delay KA> delay dash 5B (Ground) GH>> delay KA> dash 5B (Ground) GH>> brief delay KA> immediate dash 5B (Air hit) GH>> max delay KA> very delayed dash 5B (Air hit) GH> slight delay KA> immediate dash 5B And so on... Low hitting requirements tend to be easier and less strict for all characters. Plus there's another benefit in Low hitting adjustments, they dont use as much as combo time, allowing specific and damaging combo routes for certain characters. 1.3.3 Extra height only Only possible off Extra height given by Airhit GH>> KA. It's related to High hitting adjustments and usually TK BE. Even on "Grounded GH>> max delayed KA" confirms the opponent won't be launched high enough to position Ragna perfectly for a proper BE confirm. Only Air hit confirms will launch the opponent high enough. There are cases where a Grounded GH confirm can somehow give the proper position (hitboxes are strange) but in most cases it won't. 1.3.4 Everything else Things like "delay 5B", "delay 5C, "N Starter only" are self-explanatory. "---" means that no particular special timing/adjustments are necessary. This doesn't mean however that it can be done in any way. For these "normal" cases always aim for a compromise between High hitting and Low Hitting. 2. Reference table Character TK BE j.B> j.C> BE Neutral hj.D> BE hj.B> j.C> j.D (f.JC)> delay BE 6A (HJC)> j.C (JC)> j.C> BE Ragna High hitting, forward high jump BE, easier on N Starters Low hitting, delay 5C High hitting, no dash 5B (...) (f.JC)> (delay) j.C> BE can be used --- Jin Low hitting, N Starter only Low hitting High hitting, no dash 5B, delay 5C Same as above --- Noel High hitting, delay 5C, Extra height only Doesnt work High hitting, no dash 5B unstable --- Doesnt work Rachel Doesnt work Doesnt work Doesnt work --- Doesnt work Tager High hitting, delay 5C, Extra height only Doesnt work Doesnt work (...) (f.JC)> (delay) j.C> BE can be used Doesnt work Litchi --- Low hitting, delay 5C Doesnt work Same as above --- Carl Doesnt work Doesnt work High hitting, no dash 5B Doesnt work Low hitting Arakune High hitting, delay 5C, Extra height only, deep dash 5B Low hitting, delay 5C High hitting, no dash 5B (...) (f.JC)> (delay) j.C> BE can be used Delay high jump Bang Low hitting Low hitting, delay 5C High hitting, delay 5C Same as above --- Taokaka High hitting, delay 5C, Extra height only Doesnt work Doesnt work Same as above --- Hakumen --- Low hitting Doesnt work Same as above --- Nu/Lambda High hitting Low hitting Doesnt work Same as above --- Tsubaki High hitting, forward high jump BE, strict Low hitting Doesnt work Same as above --- Hazama/Terumi --- Low hitting Doesnt work Same as above --- Mu High hitting, Extra height only, forward high jump BE Low hitting Doesnt work Same as above --- Makoto High hitting, delay 5C, Extra height only Doesnt work High hitting --- Doesnt work Valkenhayn --- Low hitting, delay 5C Doesnt work (...) (f.JC)> (delay) j.C> BE can be used --- Platinum High hitting Low hitting Doesnt work Same as above --- Relius --- Low hitting Doesnt work Same as above --- Azrael Low hitting Doesnt work Doesnt work Same as above --- Bullet --- Low hitting High hitting, no dash 5B unstable Same as above --- Amane Low hitting Doesnt work Doesnt work Same as above --- Kagura Low hitting Low hitting High hitting, no dash 5B unstable Same as above --- Izayoi High hitting, delay 5C, Extra height only, strict Low hitting, delay 5C Doesnt work Same as above --- Kokonoe High hitting, strict Low hitting Strict (specific horizontal spacing) Same as above --- Celica Low hitting Low hitting No dash 5B Extra delay on BE, (...) (f.JC)> (delay) j.C> BE can be used --- . 2.1 Compatibility rates These rates tell how many characters can be hit by a given BE string. It's possible to draw a "difficulty" rating based on specifics of each BE string across all the characters. Assume that: The more specifics, the more "difficult" a particular BE string it is Low hitting adjustments are "easier" since they are versatile and can be applied more easily TK BE works on 24 out of 26 characters (~92,8%) without taking in account specifics. TK BE works on 6 out of 26 characters (~23%) under Low hitting adjustments. TK BE works on 12 out of 26 characters (~46,1%) under High hitting adjustments. TK BE works on 6 out of 26 characters (~23%) that doesnt require special adjustments. Out of these 12 characters that can be hit by High hitting adjustments, 10 require specifics. (~83,3%) j.B> j.C> BE works on 18 out of 26 characters (~69,2%) without taking in account specifics. j.B> j.C> BE works on 18 out of 26 characters (~69,2%) under Low hitting adjustments. Out of these 18 characters that can be hit by Low hitting adjustments, 0 require specifics. (0%) Neutral hj.D> BE works on 11 out of 26 characters (~42,3%) without taking in account specifics. Out of these 11 characters, 7 require specific timings. hj.B> j.C> j.D (f.JC)> delay BE works on 25 out of 26 characters (~96,1%) without taking in account specifics. Out of these 25 characters that can be hit, 1 require specific timings. 6A (HJC)> j.C (JC)> j.C> BE works on 22 out of 26 characters (~84,6%) without taking in account specifics. Out of these 22 characters, 2 require specific timings. 2.2 Difficulty rating Using the aforementioned criteria: j.B> j.C> BE is the easiest and most versatile BE string to perform, since it can performed the same way many characters. Followed by hj.B> j.C> j.D (f.JC)> delay BE, that works on virtually every character but results in less combo potential than j.B> j.C> BE. Followed by 6A (HJC)> j.C (JC)> j.C> BE, that works on less characters but has better combo potential. TK BE is very strict compared to the previous BE strings, but has the best combo potential. Neutral hj.D> BE is not only more strict but has the least versatility. 3. Discussion No, the point of this table is not being completely memorized (good luck remembering 130 specifics) and yes help to understand better how a Midscreen BE Combos works on different characters. Practice is important and getting the right feel for these combos is necessary in order to get consistent with them. Consistency that will make a difference, BE combos have their share of benefits. Based on the "Difficulty ratings" I recommend: Learning and giving preference to j.B> j.C> BE. It works on all characters but: Noel, Rachel, Tager, Carl, Taokaka, Makoto, Azrael, Amane. For those exceptions, use "hj.B> j.C> j.D (f.JC)> delay BE". It works on them all, except Carl. For Carl use "6A (HJC)> j.C (JC)> j.C> BE". When in doubt use "hj.B> j.C> j.D (f.JC)> delay BE" or "6A (HJC)> j.C (JC)> j.C> BE". "Neutral hj.D> BE" works better on Makoto. This way hitting BE midscreen shouldn't be a problem on any character! If you can, try memorizing which characters get hit by "TK BE". It may sound very difficult to memorize at first but eventually it just sinks in. TK BE may not look like a very attractive choice because of how specific it is, but the benefits outweight the downsides. 4.Extras 4.1 Combos Some combos to better picture the difference between non-BE and BE combos. GH>> KA> 5B> 5C (HJC)> j.C> j.D (JC)> j.C> j.D> DID~, Damage: 2819 GH>> KA> dash 5B> 5C> TK BE> 5B> 5C> 5D> DID~, Damage: 3303 (+14,7% damage) GH>> KA> dash 5B> 5C (JC)> j.B> j.C> BE> 5C> 5D> DID~, Damage: 3335 (+15,5% damage) Throw> GH>> KA> 5B> 5C (HJC)> j.C> j.D (JC)> j.C> j.D> DID~, Damage: 3080 Throw> GH>> KA> dash 5B> 5C (JC)> j.B> j.C> BE> dash 3C> 22C> DID~, Damage: 3413 (+9,8% damage) 5B> 6A> GH>> KA> 2C> 6A> TK BS> dash 5B> 5C> 5D> DID~, Damage: 3123 5B> 6A> GH>> KA> dash 5B> 5C> TK BE> 5C> 6A> TK BS> dash 5B> 5C> 5D> DID, Damage: 3546 (+12% damage) The damage benefit may not seem much, but it exists. I recommend visiting Ragna's Combo Thread for more combos. 4.2 Useful links This other guide is also about Belial Edge, but talks about optimal positioning and damaging BE routes. Framedata is super important! There are reports about data inaccuracy but most info is fine. This YouTube channel has plenty of useful info for Ragna in general. Yes... shameless self promotion I guess. 5. Closing words Not much to say but I really hope this guide helps someone out there to understand better Ragna's midscreen BE combos in CPE. It may not seem very important for some, but I believe it's a step torwards mastering Ragna. It's not the difference between life or death but can make "that" really small difference that really counts in the end... these are my thoughts. And that's all! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Giggles454 Report post Posted November 17, 2015 Beautiful Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
