The Good, the Bad, and Ugly as Hell Baiken Matchups

[Shinjin]

well, experience tells us that the same questions are asked 1000-times due to this thread being 39-pages long and scrubbies dont know how to search. I dont care though, im just bored.

[Hellmonkey]

If you want to write it all up go for it, but I don't think it'd be particularly useful otherwise I would have already done it.

[Shinjin]

Well, im not saying you/we/whoever should write all matchups down. Im just saying a bit structure would be good instead of a thread with matchup-info since like #R or something. But whatever floats your boat.

[rtl42]

i agree with shinjin, but if it's only two of us asking for it, then maybe it's not a big deal >_>

[tolore]

I also think we should write it all up, it's pretty tough to search through this thread for the right information. More importantly we can see what information can still be filled in. I'd be glad to help in a few weeks when I'm out of school.

[ghost333]

i would like to see some more organized matchup info and it will make defently stuff easier to find and ask

[Vyers]

I agree a matchup subforum with character specific threads would be useful.

[ajinkris]

Hey Hellmonkey,

I'm trying to learn bacon so...

Can I please have organized matchup informations?

Like, compile all of it and list it all out on the first page?

Please also list all frame data and correct matchup ratios and counters.

Thanks.

EDIT: OMG NVM, I JUST FOUND THE SEARCH BUTTON LOL

[Shinjin]

kthxbye

[rtl42]

um wow...

[tolore]

what's the baiken match up with dizzy, and what do you guys do? It feels like a pretty tough match to me and I'm not entirely sure what to do in it. It's tough to get in on her with all the crap she throws on the screen, and once you are in on her you have to worry about that gigantic throw range she has.

[Hellmonkey]

6K takes care of throwing pretty well, from what I remember the most important part of Baiken's game in that matchup is not letting Dizzy get free ins, and as in most not mindlessly jumping in either. I haven't fought against AC dizzy too much, so I'm not sure about how effective 6P is now that Dizzy has j.2s, I think it should still win though. Pre-emptive j.p always works. Block well and don't let yourself get thrown all day and you should be fine. Dizzy dies fast. Also be careful with counters if there are any projectiles out, it's easy to hit one and give her free damage.

As in every matchup, j.S is very effective. Goes without saying lol.

Kabari can be dangerous because of projectiles, but because Baiken sometimes needs that range I believe it can still be used effectively to catch her summoning.

Knockdown with 5s j.d, mixup with yzn 50/50 with 50% tension whenever possible.. she really does die fast. I've seen 5p used in this matchup more than in any other, to clear fish/tickthrow/counterhit her, it's definitely worth looking in to.

Out to class, I'll fool around in training mode later and write up some more.

Also remember that a lot of Baiken's moves are slow (both startup and recovery), so attacking in with normals while an ice spike is out, for instance, is almost always a bad idea if they have the option of just blocking it and punishing.

[tolore]

Yeah, most of baikens jump ins get crushed by summoning the spear head(that backwards dragon motion slash whatever it's called). I'll definitely try 5p though, i pretty rarely use that in general even though it's good.

6.p may work alright, but at least the dizzy I play against isn't coming in with air normals without fish and/or spear heads to cover her, and she's generally high enough above/behind me that I don't think 6.p will work, but That's also something i'll try and use and see if it works.

I've been thinking about using 6.k against dizzy, but i've heard the one that i play against option selects his throws, although hopefully 6.k will stuff him anyways. Another problem is half the time I try that a fish eats the 6.k and i get heavy slashed.

edit: her 2.s(i think it's 2.s) also crushes pretty much all air moves and then combo's you.

[Hellmonkey]

you shouldn't give her enough time to make multiple summons and safely advance. Rush her down if she tries to get away with too much, otherwise avoid/safely block/kill the summons. Keep in mind that 6p is two hits so it does beat a summon + hit her in some situations as I recall.

What is he option selecting with to stop 6k?

[Shinjin]

The main thing when playing vs Dizzy that has yet to be said is that being on the ground is very important. Run in with fd'break footsies and poke with 2s. It has better priority and range than most of dizzys pokes that she might end up using. They might do icespike to try to punish your advance and that is why fdbreaking is very important. Hitconfirm 2s counterhit to tatami and then just combo her into knockdown and rushdown. Dizzy is pretty easy to rape. If you haven't killed Dizzy after two rushdown-oppurtunitys you have lost the match.

If dizzy gets a summon out be very careful. 6p -> jumpcancel the fish if you dizzy is far away and the fish is close to you. 5p often whiffes etc. etc. Using this when dizzy is close is dangerous though. Because she just has to like... hit you. She has the advantage if she is close and has a summon out.

Drysummon can be punished with iad jS (counterhit) -> tatami or jhs depending on what range and what mood your in, but i recomend tatami.

So basically, footies with fd and 2s. Use well spaced kabaris. Just prevent her from getting that summon. Never attack from air cause her spike (not icespike) and 2s are stronger than everything. Punish drysummon (aka dizzy summoning without any protection, knockdown, etc). If you manage to keep dizzy from summoning you have won the match. Counters are pretty much useless, so you have to win this match with offense.

j2s can be 6p most of the times, you can also baku for aircounterhit if you pull the baku off before the second hit for broken damage.

I've played Nehle(di) and SDF(di) quite alot so I have a good idea how to play this matchup.

ed: oh, and vs throw... 6k is good yup. 1fjump might also be an option. If he optionsselects into some kind of poke you probably will be able to punish it? Im not exactly sure what he is doing...

[tolore]

I actually don't know, i don't get to play this match up very often, i was thinking 6.k but someone told me he option select, i'm not sure into what. Normally i'd jsu tlearn over time, but evo this weekend and all . Anyway thanks for the advice, I'll definitely think about this when i'm repping baiken at evo!

[Hellmonkey]

See when he is counter-throwing you. If he does it right on wakeup just do an almost meaty 6K (slightly late because throw invincibility ends). If he blocks and tries to throw you do 2k 6k.

Also shinjin: I was going to write stay on the ground more but figured saying don't jump in without thinking and don't let her get free summons got it covered :o

Also counters definitely aren't completely useless in this matchup, it can shut down a lot of dizzy's options and force her to do softer mixups for baiting purposes. Still use them rarely.

[tolore]

yah i jump way too much, i was watching some baiken vids today and i realized they run and faultless break in places where i jump a lot. It's not too bad in most matchups(i do feel it a little htough) but against dizzy the too much jumping wrecks me.

[rtl42]

Counters are pretty much useless, so you have to win this match with offense.

j2s can be 6p most of the times, you can also baku for aircounterhit if you pull the baku off before the second hit for broken damage.

in what situations are counters pretty much useless -- when she's pressuring you with a summon out?

also isn't j.2S only one hit? what second hit are you referring to?

[Shinjin]

yes, when she is pressuring baiken with a summon out (like after a throw). Because Dizzy-players that know the matchup can throw all the counters on reaction because the fish will absorb the hit from the fish. And even if you frc sakura they can still throw it on reaction, cause she has good throwrange. Sometimes using ouren might get you out, but in my opinion that is only when the dizzy sucks. Of course, Dizzy cant play her usual oki on baiken, and because of that it is easier to block a dizzy playing anti-baiken-oki and rushdown.

yeah, my bad on the j.2s. But still, if you counter it quickly you can get a aircounterhit. My brain just said it was 2 hits, but like rtl42 said it is only one. Deosnt change the fact though.

ed: oh, one thing I forgot. Remember that your airtoair is superior. jP can stuff most of her airpokes if you dont do it in really stupid situations.

[Hellmonkey]

I remember 2H being useful for getting rid of a summon and hitting her/keeping her out, I played around with it the last time I played against Dizzy and the lower hitstop definitely seemed to help. (when you hit a summon/projectile it puts only you in hitstop)

You can still instant counter almost any of her normals when summons aren't out (i think her f5s has reduced hitstop, so don't try it on that), so it's just a matter of recognizing when you'll be hitting her instead of a summon ;o

[rtl42]

i have a question about fighting robo-ky.

at the beginning of the match, what are your options for getting the initial offensive momentum? if it's not possible, what are good/safe defensive options?

i sometimes get whacked with a 5H, f.S, or 6P (most often as a Counter Hit), and if i try to jump forward at the beginning with a j.H, his jump-forward j.P will beat it.

as such, my simplest conclusion is to either block at the start, and wait for him to do something, or backdash and re-consider my options from there.

[tolore]

I generally back dash, or IAD back tatami, be careful though as he CAN tag this( although it's hard and he has to be expecting it). I generally try and stay somewhat out of his range and poke at him with chain and 2s, his far slash will beat 2s at certain distances/times as will his steam, but both of those get counter hit by the chain so it's dangerous for him to do that. 6k crushes pretty much all of his pokes, the best he can hope for is if he predicts it and does a VERY earlier far slash or steam.

Also something I just learned recently, my robo ky friend was messing around in training mode and he says he can dragon punch out of 2k->5s gatling, so that's a little terrifying(he hasn't done it to me yet, but i did see him do it in training mode).

I'll see if i can get some matches recorded with my robo ky friend this friday before i make the long painful transfer to stick playing. He's probably one of the best robo ky's in the US(i haven't fought east coast robo ky's though, lazy bums didn't go to evo) and we generally go pretty even.

We might both be showing up in a couple weeks at canada when you return so you can get some robo practice in then if we do.

[Hellmonkey]

Never, ever start a match with jump forward j.H, lol. You shouldn't be using the move at all except for oki, combos, or a few situations like getting over axl or venom, in which case even then it's not safe. Against Robo, your best bet is taking your chances when he's out of tension, although overall both players in the match are better off playing defensively. Option select in the air with j.P when you jump at him, use j.S to zone like everyone else. Chain can be very useful in this matchup, since he doesn't have a good response to it from a certain range, and it will hit knee rocket as well as just about everything else.

If you get him cornered when he doesn't have tension it's pretty easy to keep him there. Make good use of mats, 6k, and kabari and it's not that tough. Don't get hit by Robo-dash. Make sure to 1f jump away if you think he'll grab, backdash is too risky.

[JackG]

Against Robo-Ky, you're going to want to take advantage of the fact that he is crap without tension. his specials suck, he can't really combo, etc. As such, I would say the Baiken will in general be a bit more aggresive because in neutral positions, RK will gladly sit on mats while Baiken gets nothing.

If RK starts the round off with 6p or 5H, he is leaving himself at major frame disadvantage. If he opens with these moves you can easily block, IAD in and do a decent punish. f.S is kinda similar, but not quite as punishable (however Baiken's f.S is faster than RK's f.S)