"Time to Make History" Dustloop Revamp Community Effort #1

[mAc Chaos]

OK here's what we're gonna do.

I talked to Huey; he was intending this thread to just be about specific feedback about the front page. More like troubleshooting and specific stuff like "the layout could use work," etc. But I also want more of this general community feedback.

Since we're talking about revamping DL, that's a huge topic and everything is going to be interrelated. Even talking about posting news relates to other things; you need actual news out there to post about, which means you need player involvement and then a discussion about why they aren't getting involved. Right there you're already drifting away from a strict talk about the front page.

So I'll make a general revamp brainstorming thread, and everybody use that for the conversation we're having here. If you want to talk about details about the front page, do it here. But if you want to talk about mods, player involvement, getting new players into DL, how to make DL alive again, etc. etc., use that other thread. I'll post the link in a minute after I make the thread.

[mAc Chaos]

Here it is, go here to continue the discussion about Dustloop.

 

But post about the specifics of the front page here. Article writing, professionalism, etc.

[Kuuhaku]

And to make things clear since people seem to have misunderstood: The original idea was to approach things one step at a time for efficiency. Since that seemed to be more problematic than efficient, the general thread was made.

If you have other ideas as to how things can be carried out, you're more than free to message a mod to give input.

[TheRealBobMan]

Not sure if it's been posted already (normally I'd look, but I'm on break at work and only have a few minutes), but can we have Featured Articles (like this website)?

 

If it's possible, set it up where really strong/informative articles are tagged in some way, and then the Featured Articles section pulls from the pool of tagged stuff and rotates them at random once per week or something.  If you have to do it manually, then find someone willing to do it.  It might only be one Featured Article at a time to start, it could be 3, whatever works for our needs and with our existing content.

[DanteSenpai]

Well in the vein of article writing, an idea I had would be to have content production that did not rely on developing news. For example, a writer could have a series that pertains to general game strategy, analysis of players, analysis of interesting matches, etc etc. This kind of content has been on the front page though very seldom and not with any real structure planned to them, and certainly not done in series.  

[Tari]

On the idea of a series of articles about something, I believe those typically don't actually need to be written by a news writer. I think those are rather often guest series where someone well known/respected covers information that they are knowledgeable about.

 

 

Putting that aside for a moment, on the topic of professionalism, we could just assign someone to be an editor for articles and have them QC anything before it goes live. If they see problems, they can delay an article and suggest changes for the writer to implement (or outright reject, haha, though hopefully with reason). That's how I've experienced it on other news/blog sites before, and it works rather well if you either have enough people to do QC or the people doing QC are efficient. It can occasionally delay an article by up to a day or so, but that may not be the worst trade-off for quality.

 

Whether that would work for Dustloop, though, is pretty questionable.

[DanteSenpai]

On the idea of a series of articles about something, I believe those typically don't actually need to be written by a news writer. I think those are rather often guest series where someone well known/respected covers information that they are knowledgeable about.

 

 

Putting that aside for a moment, on the topic of professionalism, we could just assign someone to be an editor for articles and have them QC anything before it goes live. If they see problems, they can delay an article and suggest changes for the writer to implement (or outright reject, haha, though hopefully with reason). That's how I've experienced it on other news/blog sites before, and it works rather well if you either have enough people to do QC or the people doing QC are efficient. It can occasionally delay an article by up to a day or so, but that may not be the worst trade-off for quality.

 

Whether that would work for Dustloop, though, is pretty questionable.

 

Looking for "well known/respected" players creates sort of a "perception barrier" if you will. I don't like that. I think I like the idea of having it be open to submission so long as the people making the decisions to post the content are objective, open-minded and active..... But the problem with looking for that kind of source is that it is kind of elitist. And what if those well known individuals simply don't have the time or don't want to contribute in that way, but others do? I'm not saying that any Joe Blow should be allowed to make articles, but DL should look for new faces. We're trying to change and getting familiar faces to do things instead of allowing new eager ones  to contribute may not be a step in the right direction, in my opinion. And the latter might just be easier. 

[TD]

At -least- one match analysis definitely needs to make its way to the front page. Show new members how to to watch a video and extract info from it, since videos make up a decent portion of the site. Whether it be beginner friendly or hardcore option selects everywhere would be up for debate though...

I too think maybe anyone can present ideas for an article. Stuff related to the game but not entirely about info. There isn't a reason humor or entertainment can't make it up there, if someone wants to make a funny video about their character or something. At least if the article guidelines are clearly outlined (you can post this, but NOT this), it could inspire some creativity and, more potential articles. Going off of tari's idea, one or a small few members can then choose the best article from submissions and post them within a agreed upon timeline (every week? Every day? In between?). Close runner-ups could then get archived and used if no quality content is given within that time frame. This way we aren't waiting for those scarce, important updates and aren't scratching our heads about what to put up there. Plus you might make that member feel good about themselves, and I don't think I need to explain the begin it behind that.

Just remember not everyone is good at posting info, but may be good at being funny, or motivational. Give them a chance to shine too.

[Tari]

To clarify, I didn't mean that those were things that only well-known, good, etc. players could write. I meant that they weren't things that the news team specifically wrote.

 

I guess my point was that guest writers are a thing. :P

[Anne]

Guest writers exist over on SRK too, they are just more heavily curated and very rare. We have to ask a bunch of questions before putting somebody up.

 

Also elitism is a word I see thrown around a lot. Sometimes people just know more and are more worth listening to and promoting, sometimes somebody is the opposite. Also politics do play into this too. That's where it gets messy. Who you are, who you know, who's respect you have, what clique you belong to etc. are a big hurdle to getting stuff up. That's where elitism becomes a factor.

[Tari]

Guest writers exist over on SRK too, they are just more heavily curated and very rare. We have to ask a bunch of questions before putting somebody up.

 

Also elitism is a word I see thrown around a lot. Sometimes people just know more and are more worth listening to and promoting, sometimes somebody is the opposite. Also politics do play into this too. That's where it gets messy. Who you are, who you know, who's respect you have, what clique you belong to etc. are a big hurdle to getting stuff up. That's where elitism becomes a factor.

 

This is also something professionalism is supposed to curb before it becomes an issue on the front page, so hopefully we can avoid any real issues with cliques and whatnot.

 

I do think that technical and in-depth articles on game mechanics and whatnot should be left to people who clearly know what they're talking about, though. It's hard to deal with any backlash from letting an unproven person write that type of article when or if any details are proven incorrect. It's not impossible, but it is a bit more difficult to prepare for when composing an article, and it's difficult to justify making that into an article in the first place unless the article is filled with hard proof/research.

[Anne]

This is also something professionalism is supposed to curb before it becomes an issue on the front page, so hopefully we can avoid any real issues with cliques and whatnot.

 

You say that now, but a lot of DL's prior mods and team came up that way, and that type of stuff is /heavily/ ingrained into this site and the AFGC. I would know, I used to be a part of it. "Professionalism" and the AFGC are at odds with each other so you'll need to have a really concentrated push and somebody in an editor position who you trust can prevent that from happening and is qualified, which is super hard to get atm.

[Poultrygeist]

Guest writers exist over on SRK too, they are just more heavily curated and very rare. We have to ask a bunch of questions before putting somebody up.

 

Also elitism is a word I see thrown around a lot. Sometimes people just know more and are more worth listening to and promoting, sometimes somebody is the opposite. Also politics do play into this too. That's where it gets messy. Who you are, who you know, who's respect you have, what clique you belong to etc. are a big hurdle to getting stuff up. That's where elitism becomes a factor.

There is a difference between elitism and qualification.  There's some people that you just trust more than others to know the game, and that's fine.  What's NOT fine is silencing opinions on the game because "a better player said this" or something.  For instance, if I were to say that I don't think CPE Relius is as fun as CP 1.1 Relius (which is an opinion I actually hold) and someone were to tell me that it doesn't matter what I think because Ryo still get results with him.  Seem like a strange example?  Well, I actually went through this on another site several times.  What I said was a subjective statement, and I don't care if Jesus and Mohammad and Tom Cruise all materialize right in front of my face to tell me that Relius is objectively more fun in CPE, it's not going to change my opinion.  I must emphasize that the people pulling this elitism were NOT aforementioned to players themselves, but random nobodies speaking for someone they (and I for that matter) have never met in an effort to undermine my opinion.

 

Also, what if an unknown face/name comes in with some genuinely good information?  Are you going to deny them because they aren't one of the popular kids?  It's a delicate balance, you need to filter out the BS from the trustworthiness, and you owe it to your user base to get credible statements, and there are certain plays that you can trust to give them.  That's fine and should be encouraged, but at the same time, nobody should feel inferior as a human being because some other guy plays a video game better than them.  Ever.

[Anne]

There is a difference between elitism and qualification.  There's some people that you just trust more than others to know the game, and that's fine.  What's NOT fine is silencing opinions on the game because "a better player said this" or something.  For instance, if I were to say that I don't think CPE Relius is as fun as CP 1.1 Relius (which is an opinion I actually hold) and someone were to tell me that it doesn't matter what I think because Ryo still get results with him.  Seem like a strange example?  Well, I actually went through this on another site several times.  What I said was a subjective statement, and I don't care if Jesus and Mohammad and Tom Cruise all materialize right in front of my face to tell me that Relius is objectively more fun in CPE, it's not going to change my opinion.  I must emphasize that the people pulling this elitism were NOT aforementioned to players themselves, but random nobodies speaking for someone they (and I for that matter) have never met in an effort to undermine my opinion.

 

Also, what if an unknown face/name comes in with some genuinely good information?  Are you going to deny them because they aren't one of the popular kids?  It's a delicate balance, you need to filter out the BS from the trustworthiness, and you owe it to your user base to get credible statements, and there are certain plays that you can trust to give them.  That's fine and should be encouraged, but at the same time, nobody should feel inferior as a human being because some other guy plays a video game better than them.  Ever.

 

I agree, it shouldn't be like that, but atm it currently is like that. I was apart of that at some point or another and can attest to it happening many times. It's super shitty.

 

I will say there is more to it outside of just info (like should you host somebody who has a huge public image problem?) and nuances but atm it's kind of messy.

[Poultrygeist]

My opinion on the latter part is that if the information they have is valuable you should just host it.  The information is far more important than who it comes from.  Say you have a guy who is known for being an asshole and getting physically violent at every major he goes to, but he's discovered some crazy new tech that changes the way the game is played.  If you promote his discovery, that's not the same thing as promoting his shitty attitude and bad behavior.  Even if you don't promote it, the community is going to circulate the knowledge anyway, whether or not the largest hub for airdashers on the internet decides to post it up on their front page.

 

I apologize if I misconstrued what you said, if this isn't what you meant I'll have to reword my response.

[Anne]

I mean there are nuances to it like I said. You have to factor in how exposure would affect situations like that and decide if that person being hosted on your site is more detrimental than just hosting content about the discovery without listing that person.

 

It's not very simple, sometimes you should do it, sometimes you shouldn't, etc. Ethical questions. You don't wanna host somebody on your site, then they use that exposure (linked to your site) to promote a hate message or something equally dumb.

[Poultrygeist]

Well I suppose you don't have to credit the guy if he's a known problem.  I'm probably just being naive, but I don't know of many people in the FGC who are known to be serious problems.  I'm not talking "this guy talks more shit than he should" and I'm not talking wannabe WWE heels like FChamp and Leffen, I mean serious threats to the community's well being like DarkPrince was.  If all else fails, you can use neutral terms.  For example, instead of "X player discovered this cool new technique, here's how you do it" you can say "This cool new technique was discovered, here's how you do it."  Like you said, just hosting content about the discovery without listing them.  You've got to pick your battles, I suppose.

 

Just shooting off my opinion here.  I guess I can't really imagine such a thing happening, but I also haven't seen many cases of someone who is a problem to the extreme that DarkPrince was back in the day.  I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, I only started paying attention to the FGC in like 2007 or so, I'm still a young'un. 

[Tari]

You say that now, but a lot of DL's prior mods and team came up that way, and that type of stuff is /heavily/ ingrained into this site and the AFGC. I would know, I used to be a part of it. "Professionalism" and the AFGC are at odds with each other so you'll need to have a really concentrated push and somebody in an editor position who you trust can prevent that from happening and is qualified, which is super hard to get atm.

 

Yeah, sorry, I meant to italicize the 'supposed', because professionalism generally isn't well represented here at the moment anyway.

 

 

In any case, it looks like you guys have discussed the ideas behind the whole problem with well-known people vs nobodies, and there's not much more to say on that topic.

[DanteSenpai]

So I think everyone is agreement that there should be someone curating the content that is submitted and that anyone should be able to freely submit content that could potentially make the front page. 

Also in reference to the old ways that are ingrained into the site. I think that is also something of a big issue. I think it's time for a passing of the old guard. People get complacent and set in their ways and opinions, and it may just be time for new blood to make up a good portion of the staff. I think a different attitude is starting to grow in the AFGC and there are people who genuinely want to see progress and could take being a mod (for example) seriously. I think shaking things up will help with the atmosphere and help dissolve the cliques and "the split" that may or may not exist on DL.
Or maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

[BlackYakuzu94]

http://8wayrun.com/

 

I think this site has a pretty good front page layout, and even the top tabs are relevant too. 

[mAc Chaos]

There's also Huffington Post style.

[Daisy-Fan]

I think a stream tab on the right just like smashboards or squidboard could it helping out a bit for the BB/GG netplay or  Tournament/scene streams.

[Kuuhaku]

I guess to update on what's going on as far as I know:

Right now front page articles are for the most part info either pulled off of Twitter or the Tips page.

People who do put up articles are taking into account feedback from here, but the formatting is extremely limiting ATM. There is a plan to address that involving integration with Wordpress. Keep in mind that none of us are professional writers and are entirely doing this in whatever free time available for absolutely 0 reward.

There's no plans for any kind of completely open submission. So if you have cool news/info shoot it at Mac, @DustloopForums, or the tips link here.

That being said, feedback for what kind of news you'd like to see on the frontpage would be really helpful. To put some kind of frame:

1) How informative/helpful/interesting do you feel that recent articles have been?

2) Do you want to see more articles that are (pick any):

a) Offline Community focused like Events and Tournaments (include JP tournaments outside of large events like Arc Revo or not-Japan only?). Promotion only or results?

b) Top Player focused like the recent Nage articles.

c) Informational: Tech and combo video round ups. Character highlights. Beginner focused articles. Etc.

d) Other: Specify - Must be gameplay focused.

Disclaimer: None of this is any kind of promise since what kind of content goes up entirely depends on what content is produced and tipped.