General Johnny Questions

[RedBeard]

This is where you ask questions relating to Johnny instead of forming whole new topics just to ask 1 question. Your question can be anything. Please take a glance at the Forum FAQ to see if your question was already answered before asking here.

[4r5]

Kinda been quiet around here lately. Someone ask a question! Answering questions is what motivates me to practice and get better with Johnny!

[RedBeard]

Yep, been a bit quiet around here. Honestly, writing the guide is taking a very long time and it's going to take a while to complete, but I am still actively working on it. If you guys don't understand something in AC or Slash or #R or whatever it is, ask right on ahead. Even about combos and whatnot.

[chingu]

Yeah Killer jokers combos are still a mystery to me as I can't connect anything after them in the airtips, pointers or maybe a list of useful things I can do with KJ or KJ Transport

[4r5]

You can delete your own posts by editing them, then hitting the delete button. Try it! KJ pulls them up and towards you. Make sure they are below you before you hit with KJ and it should be easy to followup with a j.K or j.S. If you connect a KJ when they are level or above you, KJ might float them too high up for you to continue the combo. Try throwing in a j.HS into your air combos, to push them down for the KJ. As for KJT, you can combo a KJT>KJ off HS, 6HS, and 3HS. Just kinda have to be quick about.

[JOFan]

k,s,hs, kjfrc... the timing is kinda weird.. i keep getting rcs and the times when i do frc i find the opponent is slightly behind me so i can only do something crappy like sde..and even ensenga sometime misses..is there any visual pointer u guys can give me?

[JOFan]

also is there any good setups to fish in more CH 3Hs? i barely find any use for that new move beside the mc lockdown during coin rushs in the corner.

[FlamesMacloud]

how do i connect with ky off a lvl 2 triangle mist finer, it seems the jk dont work on him, it works on sol and may and others just not him, what u guys think i should do instead?

[DumJumJimmyWum]

I know there's a couple questions out there, but I was wondering what you guys thought were good ways to bait SRK(VV etc). I've seen DC do 3HS from a distance and Bleed do a spaced dash then whiff 2S. What else would you guys suggest? (Besides blocking) Also, how does Johnny bait bursts??

[burningvigor]

how do i connect with ky off a lvl 2 triangle mist finer, it seems the jk dont work on him, it works on sol and may and others just not him, what u guys think i should do instead?

standing S then jump up and kick.

[RedBeard]

I know there's a couple questions out there, but I was wondering what you guys thought were good ways to bait SRK(VV etc). I've seen DC do 3HS from a distance and Bleed do a spaced dash then whiff 2S. What else would you guys suggest? (Besides blocking)

Also, how does Johnny bait bursts??

Couple things...

VVs I normally just block for a split second on wake up and then continue my pressure or something. If you want to be totally sure, toss a coin and confirm a hit or a block before you continue. It's absolutely safe pretty much, just watch your feet for GV. Another option is timing a meaty 2K so it hits on the last active frame, because it recovers in 4F which is almost entirely reversal safe against most of the cast. So you have the last active frame plus 4F of recovery. So if timed properly you'll still have an attackable box on them on wakeup, but you will recover properly before any reversal in the game almost(including really fast reversals like Chipp and Axl's)

2S will clash with some wakeups if spaced properly, but be careful if your opponent is good he can do a few things out of a clash. It will also lose to some overdrives I'm pretty sure.

I haven't tested 3H's hitbox but if Bleed is using it from a distance then perhaps it doesn't extend Johnny's hitbox much.

For burst baiting/blocking, just use burst safeish moves during your combos. Problem being that with bursts being so fast now and Johnny's pokes being slow in general, he lost some of his good burst blockers in AC including 5K, the coin, j.K and j.P(ouch). The loss of j.P and j.K hurts a lot because now if Johnny air combos he MUST guess and stop comboing. Canceling into a j.P or j.K now means you get hit by the burst. Anyways, general advice would be:

Bursts come out in 19F in AC. Anything slower than that in framecount total will not block properly. When baiting bursts, use something JCable(5P, 5K, c.S, 6P), or use Mist Canceling(12F total to recover from any poke at level 1 so it's all burst safe). You can let a move recover after it hits and most of them will block but that requires you to stop your combo(most likely the same scenario with MCs). The only burst safe moves to cancel into anymore are 5P, 2P, and c.S. Everything else will get hit. 5K is only burst unsafe by 1F though.

Remember that Johnny can jump during his dash so if you spot a burst during one, jump and block or jump and airthrow. This also helps to avoid reversals and ODs.

Edit: Sorry, 2K is also burst safe.

[RedBeard]

also is there any good setups to fish in more CH 3Hs? i barely find any use for that new move beside the mc lockdown during coin rushs in the corner.

I would say fishing for 3H CH is a bit pointless...for now. I'll have to test more on 3Hs extended hit properties and whatnot. Basically...

3H and 5H both have 11F startup. 5H does 42 dmg, 3H does 28x2(only 28 since you're aiming for a CH). They both do the exact same amount of stun on CH(Lv5 moves). 5H has 2 active frames and 3H has 8(!) on the first hit.

The only thing to really consider in this kind of situation is 3H's hit box and how much it would help you land a CH over 5H, because 5H extends Johnny's hitbox really badly and he's very prone to getting hit out of it in a lot of cases especially by things like Sol's 2D. Otherwise if 3H doesn't prove too awesome hitbox wise/or if the active frames don't help much then I'd say there's no reason to lose the extra damage. I'll have to mess around with 3H more because tbh I just haven't really used it yet.

[DumJumJimmyWum]

After throw, when is it better to coin vs combo mid screen? Is this char specific?

[4r5]

To add to baiting SRK's,

My favorite, meaty 2K has already been mentioned.

Meaty a falling j.HS. If they reversal SRK, then you land and block. If they block it then you go into an Ensenga, or land and 2D them.

Jump-in, if they SRK, double jump and make them whiff, then do what ever. Against Sol and Ky, keep your fingers ready to FD if they do the HS versions.

Blocking is always king. Like RedBeard said, just a moment is enough. But sometimes people are crazy and will see that moment's worth of blocking and take the momentum from you. (Sol wakes up, sees me holding down-back, starts running up, I 2HS, he sees me flinch and VVs ) For those people, they need to see an action before they'll commit to a SRK. So just whiff a fast recovering move over top of them as they are waking up, that usually does the trick.

After throw, when is it better to coin vs combo mid screen? Is this char specific?

Damage off of Johnny's throw and airthrow are horrible. Forced prorate by 40 and 50 percent. Unless it's going to kill, you don't bother going for damage. If you haven't coined them, then take the opportunity to coin them. Then aim for your damage when they tech the coin. If you already coined them, then you are either getting them to the corner and/or going for a knockdown, and if possible, a mist setup.

DumJumJimmyWum, what Johnny says when he is KO'ed?

[RedBeard]

I would also add that there are many characters you can coin and combo as well. Generally, just doing a coin vs. comboing adds about 40ish? extra damage for the air combo. But there are a lot of characters you can do just as much damage on AND coin them(Anji) or a lot you only lose like 20 damage on(too many to name, check the Character Specific Topic). Generally, if they aren't already coined then you should coin them after a throw because you get Lv2 and they're put in bad position. I personally will usually take the followup aircombo after Throw->Coin mid screen(assuming I have the option on that character), but if I am near the corner after a coin I will go for the followup air throw because it will lead into the unblockable...whereas midscreen it's iffy if you'll pull off the air throw and it doesn't lead into too much except knockdown(or if you feel particularly aggressive, combos into Jackhound on a wallbounce).

[DumJumJimmyWum]

time for another scrubby question! So as far as I understand, throws are 0F startup. Can you beat a throw with a meaty? And since SRKs have "invincibility to stirkes" wtf does that mean? you can throw them? cuz so many damn characters have one (Jam,Chipp,Ky,Chipp,Sol,Zappa,Bridget,OS,RO,Axl(sort of) that pressuring them is so unfun! And for my Johnny related question, is Regular Jackhound always unsafe on normal block? I've been afraid to figure it out cuz it often costs me 50 cents each time I test it =( Forgot to put it in my other posts, but thanks for all the feedback! =)

[4r5]

Can you beat a throw with a meaty?

Yes. As long as you aren't in throw range, but then why would they attempt a throw? You can trick people into thinking you are in range and since you aren't in range your meaty will beat their HS/6HS.

And since SRKs have "invincibility to stirkes" wtf does that mean? you can throw them?

Invincibility to strikes is not invincibility to throws. So, yes, you can throw them. But many SRK's bring people into the air, where they can't be ground thrown. You can try air throwing them, but good luck with that.

And for my Johnny related question, is Regular Jackhound always unsafe on normal block?

A big fat -20 on block. You'll get hit by most people's 6HS. ReturnJack is -48, by the way.

[DumJumJimmyWum]

Ah, cuz I was playing with some guys in Austin this weekend and I would often see them run up and do meaty attacks that were within throw range. I assumed it was because the characters they play can do jumping games also, which would cause throws to whiff. Johnny doesn't really have that option I guess since he dashes? VV beats an air DB unless it's really high in which they wouldn't VV anyway. It's probably unclear by what I mean so I'll describe a situation. Ky knocks Eddie down. Ky is running torwards Eddie, and as he reaches Eddie who is getting up, at the exact same time he sticks out a kick that is well within throw range. I assumed Ky doesn't get thrown all the time because he can do that jump, back dash cross up stuff instead of doing the kick, but wasn't sure if it was like 3rd strike where you can beat throws (2F I know) with a meaty. Pozer exclaimed once during a game "wtf, i thought it was meaty" so I was kind of confused. And as far as invincibility to strikes, is there anything else that doesn't count as a strike besides a throw and projectiles? I just hate SRKs so much Also, I saw the combo video "J" with the 6P combos you guys mentioned in the video thread, but honestly I don't really ever see someone land a 6P that close chained from a ground move.... any thoughts on that? Heck, I rarely see people land hits (w/ Johnny) that close in general. it's always around full 5K distance that people get hit. Am I just that noob?

[Nattak]

I assume that there are more people out there than me, who is practicing the Throw, dashjump, 1-hit ensenga thingy on light chars (throw, dash jumpcancel, j.p, j.k, j.s, dj. j.k, j.s, j.D, Ensenga[alternate combo for heavier chars]) I can get it in beat a couple of times, but havent got the timing for the dash yet, is there a specific thing you notice on johnny before you can start the dash? [this is realy stupid to ask, cause the timing will eventually come after practicing, but i just had to ask]

[RedBeard]

I personally have noticed no timing, it's just something I've grown used to over the years and I just kinda know when he's going to recover. But even with my experience with that, mid screen dashjump 1 hits still aren't considered "match viable" so I wouldn't worry too much if you're having trouble pulling them off. Not to say they're not possible just very easy to screw up so it's generally not worth doing to be honest because in most cases you're going to coin them, coin combo them, or just aircomboing is even probably more beneficial because you'll never miss the air combo.

[burningvigor]

Practice I guess. Im pretty sure you do this but, make sure you press forward at least once before he finishes his throw that way as soon as your allowed to move you just have to press 9 one time to jump dash in the air. The timing came to me really quick for the dash jump after throw, that might have to do with the fact i was doing alot of j.S before hand to do stupid shit like, throw j.s j.hs 236S for a knockdown from a throw :D.

[4r5]

DumJumJimmyWum, If you get hit when trying to throw, then you either weren't in throw range or you were to slow on hitting HardSlash. Or their move has throw invincibility, like Eddie's reflector. Strikes include projectiles. Some characters you're forced into a close up fight, like Jam and Sol. Other times you can get in close, or end up being close, from punish situations. Like when you block a Bandit Bringer or dash over someone's 2K. Point is, I tend to hit a lot of people at point blank with 5K or c.S. I'm not trying to hit them at point blank, it's just how the fight went. Also, you don't need to chain the 6P from a ground move to do the combo.

[DumJumJimmyWum]

Ok so more General Johnny Questions. Can j.S hit all standing characters on the way down? what about certain crouching characters? I'm assuming it's the threat of being hit by j.HS that keeps ppl standing. Can you use air DB as a legit cross up on okizeme (for a last hit desperation) or something? I think the guy I did it on just couldn't tell I had jumped on the other side. How do you do 1-hit setups? I tried learning them today at the arcade and couldn't pull a single one off. I tried all of them off throws, and I couldn't really figure out what timing I needed (if any) to change. How close to the corner do you need to be (or do they also work not in the corner)? I was using the combos listed in the Gameplay Specifics. Could someone give me the most simplest Enkasu that I could do? I couldn't even do KSDE that supposedly works on half the characters Any tips would help. oh yea, if a move has throw invincibility, is it for the entire move? or just their active frames?

[Mitsurugi]

Try to 1-hit Dizzy, she is one of the if not the easiest to pratice on, to get a feeling of it :

corner throw, j.KSDE(1)

1-hit usually requires to delay the Ensenga. Force yourself not to immediately cancel the j.D by the 41236H.

Some setups needs a delay before the j.D, before the Ens or for both.

As for crossups with DB, I find it kinda awkward to do. Most of the time, the pillar of flame will miss when you cross the point of crossup (the vertical line where your opponent has to change the direction of his guard), because DB is not straight below JO, but a little forward. Nevertheless, it works on bigger sprites or if the opponent tries a move that extends his hitbox.

I sometimes use IAD over the opp. then cancel it by a "reverse" DB as soon as you cross him. The cancel will automatically make JO facing his opp even if the IAD is not finished. Though I find this crossup kinda slow and easily predictable (at least against the good players I play with), it sometimes work.

You could also do some fancy throw feint with a DB that will whiff on purpose, but only just, so that the opp will guard then you land > throw him.

In AC, i find DB on okizeme weaker than before, due to the plummet factor. I use it now against predicted OD, just to land some damage and have another knockdown.

Or against a good opp that I know will guard the pillar of flame then do some classic mix-up (AD stuff, land 2K, land throw, j.K overhead, falling j.H > Ens etc).

Most of the time though, I prefer to use other okizeme, such as spaced 3H (really good against people with dragon punch moves), tick throw, building the guard gauge and such.

Well spaced and timed KJ (from KJT or not) works pretty well, specially since it is faster than DB and tricky to spot if well done. If you do it slightly earlier, it is a normal guard, a little later, a crossup.

Besides, with an FRC you can combo from it. It is also be possible to combo without Tension, if done close to the ground and depending the character, with a c.S > aircombo.

I think throw invincibility is only for a certain amount of time, not necessarily through all the move. Check the frame data here on Dustloop (quick reminder : http://dustloop.com/data/ac/select.html )

For instance, Baiken's 6K is throw invincible from 1~11F while having a 12F startup, 9F Active, 6F Recovery so if you SB it, you may throw her.

Some character can't be hit by a falling j.S. An obvious example would be Zappa. Same goes for crouching.

By the way, given you talked about DB as a crossup, keep in mind j.K and j.S allow it, but you must be deep enough in this opp. j.P toon in theory, but is too hard to use in real.

[Mercenary]

Jofan, Redbeard, and Disater ya'll keep Johnny kicking ass. When ya'll are doin training mode what do ya'll do usually to increase your skills and reduce your amounts of mistakes happening in matches...Hell Kenmaster is good too. I'm trying to play at ya'lls level