[AC] AC: Matchup Guide/Discussion

[DumJumJimmyWum]

For some reason, whenever I watch Japanese Zappa players, they just don't backdash really fast(Zappa has the fastest backdash in the game) and then summon. A lot of zappa players I know do this, especially at the beginning. Is there something I'm missing that Johnny can do to put him in a favorable position/punish? Only thing i can think of is punish jackhound. Anything else is pretty risky.

[4r5]

You aren't sticking close enough to them, if they are able to just backdash away and summon. Is the quick simple answer I'm going to give you before I dash off to class.

[DumJumJimmyWum]

the problem is the spit/goo(i think it's standing S), it really messes up the ground game =( I see a lot of jumping by the JO players usually. My theory is that if the zappa player does summon, the JO player will dash in and start a block string. Just wanted to see what you guys thought.

[Mitsurugi]

Sorry, I unfortunately don't have that much input about ZA too.

AB :

- Yes, at max range, you can't 6K Danzai in order to get close but you can easily backdash, no matter if you are cornered or not, thus escaping her pressure game.

You can therefore act according to the Danzai distance :

close : walk forward and punish (or 6K but that is less effective)

mid : 6K (not the greatest but easier to get IMO) or a poke leading to a KD, for instance 5K > 2D, better but a little harder to time.

far : backdash

You can also SB.

4r5, don't you have anti-Moroha strats ?

PO :

- When they air tech, for instance after a coin throw, many PO players j.D. If you anticipate that, do a j.D or sj.D according to his height. That often scored me a hit. Don't cancel into Ensenga except if you are sure or can confirm it since the j.D can hit as a cross-up depending on the direction he techs and the direction of your jump.

- Dash throw or Wave Dash throw works pretty well despite the risks.

- Double jumps or Airdash KJ FRC as a feint/bait can make wonder too thanks to its additional JC. Just be wary of his 6P and Heat Knuckle range though that last one has a slow startup (only hit if he predicts you, not on reaction unless you really screw up).

[4r5]

4r5, don't you have anti-Moroha strats ?

Moroha and I have been practicing with each other for, about, 2 years, now. My anti-Moroha strats have all involved me knowing more about the game, my character, his character, and having better execution. Now that he has caught up in all those respects, all the anti-Moroha strats I got left I have already posted under the ABA section. Being sparring partners we try our best not to hide anything from each other, anti-Moroha is pretty much anti-ABA, at this point.

The only anti-Moroha I got left is to not pick Johnny. But I like Mist-Canceling too much, so now I just try to have tougher nerves and out think him.

And this reminds me, I need to make time to go back to to the ABA section and expand/elaborate/revise it, among other things around here.

[SSMugen]

Hey guys I have to ask, what are the specifics to fighting Slayer with Johnny?

[4r5]

A quickie before I head to class. Slayer's weakness is his mobility. Out space him. Focus on keeping him away. Let him get hurt as he tries to move in on you. Eye his meter, don't give him a chance to BBU or DoT you. If he is in your face and you don't want to deal with it, FD him away and reposition yourself. If Slayer leads in health, then you can't play so passively, you'll have to go to him. Use your range and speed to your advantage. Slayer has excellent anti-air. Be very careful going at him from the air. You can try to use DB and KJ to get around his anti-air, but it's wiser to just stay on the ground.

[Mitsurugi]

4r5 >

I implicitely meant "Since you know Moroha well, don't you have anti-Aba strats or tricks ?" while teasing you in the same time.

In my humble opinion, the match-up thread is the most important since execution wise, Johnny was toned town. Hence the crucial need for JO players to gather information about it somewhere, here. My initial idea was to give this topic a second birth, seeing how deserted it was. That's why I wanted to put you at contribution with the Moroha allusion.

Doesn't KenmasterX play Johnny too ?

Come on, Fuji you too, I heard good things about your JO !

SSMugen >

SL :

(the fancy bolded stuff is so that someone searching for a specific matchup can easily browse through the different pages of this topic and see all the posts concerning the character he is looking for in a glance)

No big strats here but as far as I am concerned (may not be viable against the SL player you face) I often zone and go for pre-emptive MF-P and low pokes (2S, 2D, MF-S(1)) when they have 25% Tension or more and I suspect a FB since should he try to BBU (his Force Break move sending you floating in the sky), it will stop him. This move does not have foot invincibility. This is because I know the players are BBU trigger happy.

Otherwise, Slayer's 2H has low invulnerability and will stuff you, so careful here, do not poke low aimlessly when close to him.

When he has 50% Tension, change your game and be safe, don't press too much on his wake up as his ground Overdrive Dead on Time on CH will kill you.

Depending on the range (kinda far, out of BBU range), I sometime throw random coins (not too much, those are essential). That stops random Mappa, some bad d-step (the move where he moves back then forward very quickly). It can help you get in (Wave Dash), covered by the coin. If he has 50% Tension, be sure to throw it soon enough to be able to block an incoming reversal DOT. I've seen JO losing a match because of that.

Defense

I just wait they waste their Tension trying lucky BBU or flashy yet expensive tension-wise stuff (for instance trying a cross-up with D-Step (S) FB) while blocking low most of the time (2H or 2K > 2H hurts), find an opening to escape and then go back to zoning/poking then pressure or a CH into combo.

When bloking, you should pay attention to his overheads :

- 6K : caution, there is a feint version of this normal.

- 5D

- It's late (one of his dandy step follow-up), pretty slow but be sure to know what it looks like, the one whre he punches downward.

Do no let down your guard as even non CH, a 2H gives him a good combo. Don't give him silly opportunities such as standing there not doing anything and getting hit by 2K > 2H.

He can also frame trap you, making you think you can punish and blam, CH 2H > pain.

If he is messing with you by teleporting back and forth over you as you wake up, so that you don't know where to block, press 2P few times, he won't be able to throw you, may hit him and should it whiff, you'll have time to guard on reaction.

[Newjack]

Damn do I hate Slayer. Basically u want to stay out the range of BBU and be super careful not to be CH'd. Don't be afraid to toss a coin. It could save u.

[Mitsurugi]

Be sure to time the coin properly according to your range. If you are far, yep, no problem. If you are in BBU or DOT range, time it earlier as usual so that you can FD on reaction a reversal FB or OD.

[SSMugen]

Thanks for the tips guys. It's just that I have a friend who uses Slayer and his mixups are ungodly...so much for balance lol.

[4r5]

Learn to react to Slayer's overheads. Slayer has to get pretty close to apply an effective mixup. FD'ing a single move or two, especially his heavier moves like 5HS and 6P, can really fudge up his pressure. Yeah, KenmasterX plays Johnny, dunno how much of a busy person he is. I think Fuji mostly posts on the Poland GG forums. Any way, yeah, I'm working on this place. I got a lot of assignments and exams out of the way, so I should have some spare time to do some stuff. I'll see about throwing around some ABA stuff soon. Things might be going a little slow, but I'm just trying to be careful that what I write up is good and correct, and most importantly always applicable. By always applicable, I mean not stuff that only works on the local Ky scrub or is only useful at an intermediate level, etc.

[Mitsurugi]

Things might be going a little slow, but I'm just trying to be careful that what I write up is good and correct, and most importantly always applicable. By always applicable, I mean not stuff that only works on the local Ky scrub or is only useful at an intermediate level, etc.

That was my point. I think it is too much of a burden for a person or two to cover every characters as exhaustively as you described it. To me, all players can and should share their wisdom, their point of view in order to broaden each others mindset.

As there are different playstyles within a character, there are different ways, maybe complementary, for JO to beat this or that char, also depending on your playstyle and how your opponent acts. The whole thing was about discussing, for instance what we said about SL earlier can have holes and another member can pinpoint them and shed a light on a new aspect or a new point of view if it is debatable.

For instance, a JO player best at zoning can teach and learn from a rushing one (DC ? ).

As in a matchup there are things that are always applicable, there are also some that aren't, which need you to understand how your opponent plays before acting accordingly.

IMO, don't hesitate to post whatever you have to say scrubby, intermediate or high level, whether there are points you aren't too sure about or afraid other people disagree with them. It is indeed a Johnny AC : Matchup discussion thread after all.

As we do that, writing some more in-depth strats may become easier and more complete.

Yep, I'm "such a boyscout" (hidden reference here) with such a naive ideal.

[faultydefense]

Does anyone with a lot of eddie experience know what to look for when attempting to get out of his pressure... It just seems so hopeless sometimes, and the only reversal JO's got is his super. Any help on the whole match-up would be apreciated.

[SSMugen]

@Fault Defense: Jack Hound when you see an opening in eddie's attack pattern or go for a grab if he slips up but that's all I can say about Eddie since I don't know much about him. @Mitsurugi- Sol vs. Ky reference lol.

[Kayin Nasaki]

Whats a good way(or preferrably some good ways) to deal with Baiken Tatami spam and keep away? I usually find a way in, but I figure theres possibly a few better options. Also, what are some good ways to bait guard cancels and punish super man?

[Rift]

@Fault Defense: Jack Hound when you see an opening in eddie's attack pattern or go for a grab if he slips up but that's all I can say about Eddie since I don't know much about him.

That worked alot better in Slash, it seemed. Jackhound doesn't help me very much with getting out of sticky situations in AC. Its invulnrability seems to come a bit later in the move now.

Maybe that's just me.

I prefer to DAA instead of OD, it's alot easier and less risky. Seriously, make use of DAA against Eddie.

[Camo]

Following 4R5/Mitsurugi discussion, for the ABA's match up : For exemple, launch ABA with this following gatling ~~~2D > MF-S(2) give a completely different direction for the ABA's Jump. He's more bowed than a normal MF-S(2) and ABA go up more high in air than normal. It permit to combot easier Aba after a MF-S(2). Also, you can confirm the MF about 4~5 holding the Kamaé. It's very usefull during long pressure. But you can generaly apply the confirm on all chars, not only on Aba of course.

[render]

How to get out of Eddie pressure: You basically don't, if they're good. Obviously the idea is to not get put under that pressure in the first place, but if you do find yourself stuck in there here's the first thing you need to do: CALM DOWN. Block low and watch what EDDIE does, not little Eddie. You want to watch for his 6K and 5K, and pay close attention to little ticks he may do before his command throw. If you see the command throw coming, and you're close enough to throw, go for it. If not, backdash or jump (preferably 1-frame jump) the hell out of there. If you're going to FD, try to FD hits from Eddie himself, and not little Eddie. Try to instant block as much as you can, but don't be too risky. If you've got some distance between you and Eddie, you can instant block the second hit of the little Eddie two-hit-from-behind thingy and backdash or jump away. A couple of good tricks to avoid his pressure in the first place is to instant block. A lot of Eddie players will lay out a 5HS and bring out little Eddie, and you can instant block it and jump away pretty easy. In fact, I think if you instant block, you can overdrive into his face. You can also instant block his far 2S and jump to avoid getting locked down by the far drill. Another thing that's important is to maintain mobility in the air as often as possible. Remember that any time you block something in the air, your jump is reset and you can double jump or airdash away. ALSO - it's okay to get hit by the normal drills (not the FB one) when you're in the air, cuz you can recover before you land. Obviously you don't want to get hit by it in the first place, but just keep that in mind. [Edit] I wanna stress one more time that you need to stay calm when you're under Eddie's pressure strings. If you see a hole, and you're sure you can get out, then go for it. But you need to come to terms with the fact that there might not BE an opening, and you just need to keep blocking. If you block all of a long pressure string, a lot of Eddie players will just get frustrated and do an unblockable to do at least SOME damage to you before their little Eddie meter runs out. That's WAY better than getting put into a double/triple unblockable setup. Re: Baiken Stop trying to rush down Baiken with Johnny. Be patient and zone. She'll eventually have to come to you. If she wants to sit in the corner and spam tatami mats, let her. If you just can't help it, or you're way behind on life and she's turtling in the corner and you don't have a choice, keep in mind that coins and mist finers will cancel the hit properties of tatami mats (though it's not worth wasting a lvl2 mist finer). Use Ensenga's distance to your advantage when she jumps up high to come down with a mat. Also use the P lvl1 MF's speed to zone the area above her.

[Mitsurugi]

Great, Render ! The gentleman above speaks the truth.

ED :

More info about escaping Eddie's pressure from AtTheGates and Teyah in :

> the Chipp blog thread, here <

Thanks to our Canadian and German bros !

EDIT : if you see the opening, go for the OD, fast, awesome range etc. DAA is kinda slow and should he hit low, what he will do with 5K for instance, you'll get creamed. But that is only if you see the opening as both OD and DAA can be baited or hit little Eddie, Eddie will then punish you for such foolishness. IMO, except if you do can see holes or are desperate, better block well, good ED won't give you such opportunities.

BA :

About Baiken, random thoughts.

- Against an opponent I know will often use Ouren (is that what is called "Superman" ?), I just poke > coin > HS > MF-P(2) into combo. Ouren is not invincible at all so she'll fly on it. That is a gamble as should she use another counter special, for instance Sakura (FRC or not), the coin will go right through her and you'll get hit. It doesn't happened that often but you'll notice soon enough if the Baiken players like to perform this counter a lot or not, due to the high reward/risk ratio.

As a reminder, it is an overhead and does cross-up.

- Otherwise, Mist Cancel to bait counter or find an opening and make use of low hits/pokes. Do not press her. That seems frustrating but against Baiken, you'll have to play that way.

- When she does the invincible run forward (63214K), just hit low, it only guards high and mid hits. She shouldn't use this move that much anyway.

- When she spams air tatamis, jumping back and forth (what good BA players will do).

As stated by Render, do your zoning job too, MF-P(1) works great to stuff mat or to nail her if she time it too late.

If you have a level 2 and she times it bad (that can happen), MF-P(2) will cancel the mat hit properties AND Baiken too, leading to a combo.

If she does not FRC it, you can try to JcK her when she is airborne but low enough to be hit by this FB. Preferably MSJH or better MSDJH, but any will do according the distance. The distance/timing can be tricky since you can be hit by the mat in the start-up animation or worse you'll end up in front of her, being too far for the JcK to hit.

- Funny note, when she stops dashing, she has a few frames of feet invulnerability and can avoid a MF-S, though it is hard to time for her.

- She can't be thrown into coin nor re-coined after a 1-hit !

[Rift]

If you just can't help it, or you're way behind on life and she's turtling in the corner and you don't have a choice, keep in mind that coins and mist finers will cancel the hit properties of tatami mats (though it's not worth wasting a lvl2 mist finer).

Why not use a lvl 2? It goes right through the tatami and still hits Baiken if you're at the proper range. That lvl 2 mist finer can end up costing baiken the match, easily.

EDIT: Ah, Mitsurugi already covered it, sorry there.

[4r5]

Marn refused to play any matches with me. (Maybe I should of money matched him) So yeah, basically what render said. With good Eddie players, there is no out, you're just going to take damage. All you can do is try and take the least damage. Aiming a DAA, Burst, or OD at Little Eddie is better then aiming for Big Eddie. An Eddie with out Little Ed is better then an Eddie with Little Ed. Especially if Eddie has no tension. If you aim for Big Eddie, you make Little Ed go away, but you haven't killed Little Ed. The Eddie player is just a DAA away from resummoning and putting you right back where you were. Just DAA Little Ed and take whatever from Big Eddie. You at least force the Eddie player to use up his tension to stall till he can summon again. advice/tricks/luck: Good time to OD is when you see Little Ed do the puke ball. The puke ball practically kills off Little Ed for you. All that's left is Big Eddie, who's trying to do the other half of the unblockable and hopefully you OD through it all. You can try blocking one half of an unblockable and quickly DAA through everything else. If you are going to get unblockabled, always try to block it. Maybe you'll get lucky. 63214[s+HS]6]S+HS[ Half-Circle-Back+Press and Hold Slash+HardSlash, Forward+Release Slash+HardSlash This is an OverDrive with a SlashBack buffered into it. Needs a little over 50% to do. You can OD puddle unblockable setups. Save your Blue Burst for when you actually do get hit. Use DAA/OD when you haven't got hit yet.

[Camo]

63214[s+HS]6]S+HS[

Half-Circle-Back+Press and Hold Slash+HardSlash, Forward+Release Slash+HardSlash

This is an OverDrive with a SlashBack

What the ???

You can't Buff a Slash Back ! lol

Normaly, if Johnny gets 50% of tension, Eddie can't make unblockable as noticed 4r5. The Joh's OD pass through the Drill + jK/S etc..

You must just wait and observe what Eddie do and act in consequence. Even if you make the OD in the Ed's guard, Joh avoid the Trap and stay safe.

[4r5]

What the ???

You can't Buff a Slash Back ! lol

Sure you can. I'm doing it right now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0wOpp2RjSo

[Camo]

It's not a Buffer, just a manip with SlashBack+OD. Or a buffer of 2 frames, therefor it's a sort of nonsense.