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[GGAC] Baiken Guide: Read this first!

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I just explained fastfall in the previous post with 5H tatami loops, and included the combos using them. I don't understand what else you're asking for.

You cancel your airdash momentum with j.D and it makes you fall faster. It can be done after a tatami with a raw airdash j.D or with a quick j.PD after airdashing.

So I fall faster after knocking down with airdash j.SD than I do otherwise...At least it gets me to the ground quicker than the knockdown, I guess...

I'll have to make some flashcards out of fastfall things and try them to understand what the difference is and what it means for me...It's not really clear right now.

This might take a few early morning sessions at school.

Edited by Star-Demon

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Typically, baiken loops in the corner using (some combo) > ground tatami > FRC > j.SD ad j.SD.

In general, Baiken's maximum damage will come from using 5H and j.D as much as possible in your combo, but 5H can only be used in some cases.

Instead of doing ground tatami > FRC > j.SD, you can combo with the right spacing: (gatling) > 5H > tatami FRC > iad j.D. If you do iad j.D fast enough, it will make Baiken fall quickly to the ground, where you can pick them up with a lot of moves, like a quick ground tatami that relaunches them or a dash 5H tatami that you can FRC and continue from.

Her loops are corner only. If you are out of the corner bring them to the corner using j.D 2366K or take your knockdown using just j.SD and lay a mat on them or slashback dash j.H (if you slashback during your iad it goes further, easier to cross up with, I really like it for this situation) or any other meaty.

Edited by Hellmonkey

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I can:

Hits (hopefully 5H gets in and I'm spaced well) > Tatami (FRC helps) > j.PSD/j.SD (FRC) > 66 > j. SD > j.D or 50/50 > earn myself reset

I feel like I'm a one trick pony. I've been trying to land new stuff off P counter > JCed 6H, and it's nice and all, but everything good I got looks just like the above. Watching Nerina, I pick up a few things but the biggest difference I see between myself and players like yourself and Nerina is knowledge, speed, and execution.

I need the crazy airthrows, the fast TK and IAD moves, and all sorts of high level stuff to win acceptably versus anyone that's a legit player. Maybe that's just me. I don't even know if I'm IDing right. I'd SHOW you, but my things are packed away and there's no footage of me playing.

At least I can beat biscuits in casuals...He's gotta be legit, he's sponsored by madkatz.

Edited by Star-Demon

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You need to watch better Baikens play. Try to find footage of typical AC baikens: maruken, oppia / oppai, rakku, sharon, few others, and emulate what they do. I think that's the best next step for you.

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You need to watch better Baikens play. Try to find footage of typical AC baikens: maruken, oppia / oppai, rakku, sharon, few others, and emulate what they do. I think that's the best next step for you.

Will do.

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Thanks a lot Hellmonkey !!! A lot of those combos are starting to work for me and more importantly im starting to understand how/why they work !! Im sure ill be able to apply this to a lot of abare situations with practice !! Especially the IAD j.D fastfall, its really incredible, and i had no idea about it !!

I have a new question to add about meterless-ness.

Suppose you are midscreen and you do not have meter and you've hit them with a 2K, c.5S. Also suppose you are fighting a VERY light opponent like May and dont trust a super jump P,S,D for knockdown.. Or worse, you are fighting Baiken and have no chance of landing a sj.P after tatami. What is a good strategy?? Would it be wise to condition an opponent to always mash tech in this situation and try to air grab them? Perhaps after grabbing them a few times it would force them to late tech, which would allow you to sj.P ?? Also i dont quite know how to grab someone as they tech yet, i dont get to practice it that much either. Any advice ?

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In GGAC it is actually quite difficult to reset someone with an air-grab out of the corner (it used to be higher range and you could option select it in safer ways in previous versions of GG), so I wouldn't go for this option against better players very often.

Against May and Bridget I use the delay tatami combo from a 2d. 2k > c.5S > 2D > delayed tatami> sj.PD. Against baiken I actually go for j.K if I do launch them without meter, otherwise I may do a 5H -> kabari to catch mashing or suzuran to try and throw incase they are looking for a counter. You could try and reset with a tick-throw or dust or any number of other options. You can always throw in a youzansen when you're near them on the ground for pretty guaranteed damage+meter, and you set yourself up for 2k/2d later, which also leads to more unpredictable youzansen RC mixup, but don't use this too much against characters that will get a huge return without meter (slayer, testament) or anyone with enough meter to land something big.

The only way to learn how to air grab is to try it a lot. Get the computer jumping at you and get used to throwing it 100% of the time. Air throw is really powerful because it is 1f and GG has a lot of movement options, but it's quite hard to explain how to use air throwing precisely because of its reactionary nature.

I do recommend learning option select throwing in general, and that applies to both your air and ground throws. So use 6P+H (same frame) on the ground and in the air most of the time you want to throw. That way even if you're missing the throw (happens all the time in a game), you can learn how to combo from your antiair j.P that you get instead.

Edited by Hellmonkey

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(post edit) Use 2D>j.D on May.

So I went and checked, and although 2D delay tatami sj.PD does not knock down May and Bridget, this low teching situation is not so bad for Baiken (depends on a lot of factors, like Bridget's yoyo), and Dizzy cannot tech it at all. The reason I never noticed with May is because you can actually combo her from really far with air dash j.S, and you will almost always have the meter for a j.D FRC out of the corner, so you will usually end up with her in the corner. Taking a 2D and doing a delayed jump for a mixup is pretty good.

I don't see myself being in this meterless ground combo situation too much against Bridget, most likely there would be zoning of some sort until you had the meter, avoiding this situation. If you do, I guess take a 2D and watch out for starship. Kabari/tatami mats/longer range options are going to be your moves of choice for this matchup.

If you're the one in the corner you can 2D and jump or airdash over and lay a mat with position or go straight into j.P/j.S/2D/land youzansen mixup. (watch out for whale and starship/yoyo delayed wakeup)

Edited by Hellmonkey

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Thanks for all the extra info ! i guess ending in knockdown is a good alternative if i feel like i wont make the sj. P. The next combo will definitely have meter ! Thanks Hellmonkey ! It will take some practice but the previous ideas of simply going for a reset on the ground is another great idea; tick throws, or dust, thanks for pointing out those options.

Also that 6 P+HS option select is really awesome... I'm using this now, and im much less afraid to attempt grabs because of it !!

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Offensively, 6K and 5S (input as 6KH and 6SH) are also very useful option selects to catch throw attempts, backdashes and jumps for more damage than 6P.

Gold bursts can be option selected with throw by simply pressing 4HD or 6HD on the same frame. This is great as a reversal gold burst because you don't always waste your burst to get out. Also great if you want to go for a ground or air grab late in the round and want to make sure it's safe against your opponent's mashed move, such as an option selected normal since you are at close range.

Almost every character at close range has a good option that will either throw (good normals+option selecting) or beat throws (throw invulnerable/airborne/good hitbox and speed). I think this makes correctly timed 6K (this move is active for 9 frames, so you can get huge frame advantages by hitting later in the move, but the move loses throw invuln as soon as it becomes active) and neutral TK Youzansen two of Baiken's most important moves up close, especially against non-DP characters. Those threats open up all of her other standard high/low and throw/tickthrowing options.

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Gold bursts can be option selected with throw by simply pressing 4HD or 6HD on the same frame. This is great as a reversal gold burst because you don't always waste your burst to get out. Also great if you want to go for a ground or air grab late in the round and want to make sure it's safe against your opponent's mashed move, such as an option selected normal since you are at close range.

my mind... it is blown !!!! Absolutely must try this...

(...)correctly timed 6K (this move is active for 9 frames, so you can get huge frame advantages by hitting later in the move,(...)

Ironic that you mention this as it is something im experimenting with a lot recently. I am trying to figure how safely you can dash in after the latest possible 6K on okizeme. It should be a +10 situation, but i wonder if its enough time to microdash 2K. It's perfect for doing a 9frame TK youzansen though !! Which i am most excited to try out in real FITES ! Perhaps instead of dashing 2K i should use 2D to make it a really good 50/50 between 2D and TK Youzansen? The only problem is how much proration 2D has as a starter. In your opinion, would you use tension on a 2D started combo?

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2D is the best low starter so yes of course I would spend the tension. You end up with way more damage with 2D tatami than anything from 2K generally because of spacing. I use it all the time, especially against characters hard to get decent damage from a 2K at range.

It can whiff through some backdashes and lose you pressure, lose to quick mashing depending on if they IB and their spacing, and on block you have fewer options.

Try to mix this stuff up with options like 5P youzansen, 5S youzansen, 5P throw, 5P2K throw, stuff like that. It's pretty hard to punish some backdashes so keep in mind everyone has that option. Those throws should be option selected with her different normals. You can also chain normals into 6K for some tasty counterhits, doing stuff like 5P 6K when they expect a tick throw. Baiken has some decent pressure options, especially in the corner.

Related note on your earlier question about comboing May: I forgot to mention that you can use 2D j.D on her. So for example 2K>5S>2D>j.D for a meterless knockdown, or 2D j.D to start your combo after 2D/youzansen mixup. Also can be used for Faust.

Strong pressure is important not just because it opens up more opportunities to hit the opponent, but the meter advantage you can gain and the guard gauge you can jack up (another reason to use 6K a lot) really help her grab damage in real matches.

Edited by Hellmonkey

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I would just like to add two things regarding the discussion of 2k and 2d as starters:

[1]: Remember that 2K is much faster than 2D. Let's say to dash and do 2D after a blocked 6K the opponent can avoid the mixup by 1f jumping after blocking the 6K, while the 2K will have a greater chance in catching them before they jump. Some times the 2D can catch them jumping since it has a pretty big hitbox, but in most cases they will be fd-blocking it and you will be put into situation #2:

[2] And also note that your options after a blocked 2D are limited; since you can only jump- or specialcancel it. And both tatami and kabari can be managed pretty efficiently by your opponent if they know what to do and when to do it. If you do 2k into 5s, confirm (block or hit) you at least get some frameadvantage and positional advantage of some sort if they block it, and a combo if it hits.

Also note that doing combos from 2k on certain distances is more difficult than 2d since you need to be able to do 2k 5s jD frc-combos. And that you might need to confirm crouching hit state (2k 5s into tatami combos on crouching state) as well if you catch them mashing a quick low attack like 2p.

Edit: note this is also a bit match-up specific since you can't do 2k 5s jD on certain characters!

Edited by Shinjin

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Another really useful trick that I don't often see written anywhere is using whiffed air normals for both okizeme and neutral play.

For example, after getting a nice knockdown from a j.D in the corner try jumping in with a low j.S that whiffs on them. By adjusting the timing, you can have it hit meaty, or have it whiff and go straight into 2K/TK youzansen(throw invuln!) which cannot be reacted to.

This makes them less likely to preemptively react to things like airdash j.P and land throw because they have to worry about the j.S. You can land and aim for a 6KH to throw or counterhit their mashed option select if they get used to throwing your 2K.

Edited by Hellmonkey

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Another really useful trick that I don't often see written anywhere is using whiffed air normals for both okizeme and neutral play.

For example, after getting a nice knockdown from a j.D in the corner try jumping in with a low j.S that whiffs on them. By adjusting the timing, you can have it hit meaty, or have it whiff and go straight into 2K/TK youzansen(throw invuln!) which cannot be reacted to.

This makes them less likely to preemptively react to things like airdash j.P and land throw because they have to worry about the j.S. You can land and aim for a 6KH to throw or counterhit their mashed option select if they get used to throwing your 2K.

Gonna play with this and report back on results. Hopefully positive. I know I'm not good at that positive stuff.

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#R quesiton:

Is Tatami FRC IAD j.D possible or specific? Is it worth the difficulty?

Btw, what's the timing for Air dash on "Tatami sj.SD AD j.SD". Will super jump make the timing easier?

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Tatami FRC iad j.D is great (assuming you get the fastfall) and honestly not all that difficult once you get the timing. Typically you'll follow it up with 6H 2D jc into some sort of air combo.

The air dash after sj.SD is pretty tight, but, yes, the super jump will make it easier (it'll likely still take a fair amount of practice, though).

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There is another throw option select that I also haven't seen written anywhere here.

When you don't have a burst, you can FD throw option select in the air by using 4HD and FD cancelling your j.D in its starting frames. The method is to 'piano' 4HD>PK in the air. Kind of tricky, but useful when you don't have a burst!

Edited by Hellmonkey

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I will update this guide to AC+ when the game is out on consoles and I get some time with the game btw

I'm really excited to hear that, let us know if there is anything that can be done to help!

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The game is finally available! Downloading the Japanese version now, hopefully we can get a nice updated guide for +R before too long. I hope there is a US release as well.

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Should be next week. Time to start making flashcards. I feel like I'm at a total disadvantage now...but I'm just gonna take the time and re-learn the game...

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I've played around with +R Baiken in training, but haven't had enough experience against people to write up a meaningful new guide for +R.  Most of the new stuff has been mentioned in forum posts.  

 

Most of the hitboxes are the same as AC although she has new tools, to name a few:

- suzuran into counters without blocking

- faster antiair counter but loss of youshijin.  

-sped up sakura but no strike invincibility.  

-j.K jc j.H j.tatami meterless combos.

-6P -> suzuran 412p ender for knockdowns at the end of combos

 -2K>6P>6K links

-6H damage un-nerfed

 

And some changes of hers:

-no fast universal youshijin counter, has to sakura against ground or 412p against airborne.

-mawarikomi nerfed (presumably because she can now 63214K suzuran -> counter without blocking)

-j.D can be recovered from much more quickly than previously

 

Unfortunately  I can't say which of her new tools are the most useful, however in the games I have played I found she has to spend meter more often than before to get knockdowns in the corner, and her midscreen combos are harder to execute.  Her potential near the corner seems to be higher and using airdash j.H j.tatami works from many heights now.  You still get huge damage from youzansen RC combos near the corner, so her 50/50 is really good with 2k and youzansen (overhead).  kabari (chain) now has a sliding hit which I don't really like compared to the old normal hit, but it does still allow you to pick up after for a combo.  j.D is still a great zoning tool even if it doesn't have as much untechable time as AC, and 2S still has its great hitbox.  Her corner combo changed quite a bit, now it's usually throw>tatami mat>2D>j.K>jc>j.H>j.tatami>6p(away from wall)>suzuran(63214K)>zakuro (new 214P cancel)

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