AC: Got Oki?

[Digital Watches]

Well yeah, but that's practically a combo...

[GerVer]

well, I think Shoto is right. I personally play oki safe. Out of throw range c.S, J.H or other options when not in distance, like 3P. I look a lot for meatys depending on the character im facing. But dont take risks. I just look for knockdowns and then make the opponent block on wake up. I dont like getting myself knocked for having tried a cross up or something, with something i wont get to hit with, like a koku crossup for example. It gets blocked, i lost 25% bar plus the FD on the way down. And i cant get to confirm the CH before i do the frc, so i use it sparingly. Raeis S is ok, i do use it. I also do that thing Shoto does, the wiffed rensen then tap 2 or 8, if from a distance. It baits stuff and catches BD and a CH 8 extension, leaves to some damage, even when it hits normal, its possible to combo after it. I dint thought of that 2P, raeis stuff. sounds good if u just hit with the retracting hit, and i think it has to be blocked low, right. Gonna try that

[Digital Watches]

well, I think Shoto is right. I personally play oki safe. Out of throw range c.S, J.H or other options when not in distance, like 3P. I look a lot for meatys depending on the character im facing. But dont take risks.

Dude, meaties ARE risks. Go for one of those when your opponent has a VV or super packed and you get yourself counterhit.

I just look for knockdowns and then make the opponent block on wake up.

Granted, that's one fine school of thought. I just personally think every wakeup is a risk, so it's better to get the most damage possible if you can so you have to win less situations.

I dont like getting myself knocked for having tried a cross up or something, with something i wont get to hit with, like a koku crossup for example.

The risk-reward on oki Kokuu is actually pretty good.

It gets blocked, i lost 25% bar plus the FD on the way down. And i cant get to confirm the CH before i do the frc, so i use it sparingly.

Confirming the CH shouldn't be incredibly hard, just watch for the opponent to do a move. If they don't, it's not going to be CH. You don't have to wait for the hit to know. Meanwhile, blocked Kokuu should be mixup. Land and throw or do something else from the air. The only time you should worry about FDing down is if you whiff or get reversaled when your Kokuu happens.

Raeis S is ok, i do use it. I also do that thing Shoto does, the wiffed rensen then tap 2 or 8, if from a distance. It baits stuff and catches BD and a CH 8 extension, leaves to some damage, even when it hits normal, its possible to combo after it.

True. This stuff is good, I only don't do it because it doesn't really fit my playstyle and I like other options better. This is a great option if you're playing conservative.

I dint thought of that 2P, raeis stuff. sounds good if u just hit with the retracting hit, and i think it has to be blocked low, right. Gonna try that

The risk there is that 2P is very vulnerable. Honestly, there are so many ways to get them out of the corner, I wouldn't bother with that except as a high-low most of the time.

[GerVer]

Granted, that's one fine school of thought. I just personally think every wakeup is a risk, so it's better to get the most damage possible if you can so you have to win less situations.

i didnt thought about getting more damage part. Good

Confirming the CH shouldn't be incredibly hard, just watch for the opponent to do a move. If they don't, it's not going to be CH. You don't have to wait for the hit to know. Meanwhile, blocked Kokuu should be mixup. Land and throw or do something else from the air. The only time you should worry about FDing down is if you whiff or get reversaled when your Kokuu happens.

U have some advantage after a bloked kokuu? i just get hit befor i try to do something, maybe im doing it wrong:(

True. This stuff is good, I only don't do it because it doesn't really fit my playstyle and I like other options better.

. The wiffed rensen.I try it after some knockdowns where i cant do anything else, like a rasshou, its the last thing i can do after it knockdowns before going to step 1 again, making contact.

This is a great option if you're playing conservative. The risk there is that 2P is very vulnerable. Honestly, there are so many ways to get them out of the corner, I wouldn't bother with that except as a high-low most of the time.

hmp, does it makes a difference when its the last hit that hits. Like more blockstun or something? the same with 2H.

Hey, Btw, wheres Shoto? i want to talk to him. Just come and say hello sometime.

[Digital Watches]

U have some advantage after a bloked kokuu? i just get hit befor i try to do something, maybe im doing it wrong:(

If you FRC it... which you should almost always do anyway.

. The wiffed rensen.I try it after some knockdowns where i cant do anything else, like a rasshou, its the last thing i can do after it knockdowns before going to step 1 again, making contact.

Well, often times you can running Raei FRC to cover massive distance, but yeah, like I said it's a fine option to rensen over them.

hmp, does it makes a difference when its the last hit that hits. Like more blockstun or something? the same with 2H.

Well, it's not more blockstun, but it guarantees that the move hits later in the pullback, meaning the SD is higher. That's how meaties work.

Hey, Btw, wheres Shoto? i want to talk to him. Just come and say hello sometime.

I think he's been busy with law school lately.

[Shoto]

@GerVer Actually right now I have some more time and I even could manage to be out playing the last weekend :P Till then I haven't really played for a few months, so I didn't had any new input on Axl and there already exists a knowledge base and as DW doing a great job here as a mod anyway^^. I still don't agree on all his tactics but well this is Guilty Gear where no two Axls are alike and he has proven that his Axl is really strong (actually even more than I have). Furthermore we are pretty much of the same opinion when it comes down to the core basics^^. .. but I usually check the boards even if I don't post, so if you want to talk to me personally you can either address the post directly to me or if you really want to make sure write me a PN^^. ..I guess you wanted some input on some of the points you and DW were talking about: - I don't like kokku as a standalone move (same old same old XD). The angle doesn't really fit in with the other air to ground / air to air options Axl has and in many matchups it feels like opening myself up. I agree that the risk of being hit or pressured is not too big and the rewards is quite high (that is if you hit low enough), but that doesn't really mean a thing if the succes rate isn't good, especially as every try costs you 25% tension and end up in a positon where there is nothing for you to do then another kokku or to flee.. I don't see how you could get into an advantage situation from a blocked an FRCed kokku (but well I haven't spent too many thought on this to be honest :P) - There are some matchups in which I choose KD over damage. Against those charas that can outmove you (like Chipp) and against those that have no reliable reversals or other defensive measures (like Eddie). In the later case part of the question certainly is how good you think that your pressure / oki is compared to your zoning skills. Anyhow I guess the only combo where there really is a choice is Axls midscreen throw combo. - KDs can go the other way, but I guess we all can agree that the standing character is in the better position than the one lying down . Even if you don't go for a rushdown attempt you can play less aggressive and bait stuff or position yourself in a comfortable distance for poking and then decide if you go for a long range meaty or a slightly not meaty long range move or if you simply see how your opponent moves after he gets up. After a KD the opponent is forced to react to you (even a VV is a reaction to an expected or seen meaty). This opens them up for all kind of mindgames. From my experience even if you are not close when they get up, they never just stand up and go on normally as long as it looks as if your planing something. Either they block for a split second, or they jump / airdash, do a backdash etc. short note about staying out of throw range on wakeup (has been mentioned somewhere in the discussion): If you are confident with your meaties you can actually run up next to them to give them the urge to try to throw you on wakeup. A meaty can't be thrown^^ (solid players will usually suppress this urge as long as they see that you have the time to do a meaty move, but the option is there). Just keep in mind that you open yourself up for reversals.

[Digital Watches]

Welcome back Shoto! (For now at least)

- I don't like kokku as a standalone move (same old same old XD). The angle doesn't really fit in with the other air to ground / air to air options Axl has and in many matchups it feels like opening myself up. I agree that the risk of being hit or pressured is not too big and the rewards is quite high (that is if you hit low enough), but that doesn't really mean a thing if the succes rate isn't good, especially as every try costs you 25% tension and end up in a positon where there is nothing for you to do then another kokku or to flee.. I don't see how you could get into an advantage situation from a blocked an FRCed kokku (but well I haven't spent too many thought on this to be honest :P)

I'll admit it's a gimmick, but most of the time I use Kokuu, I try to grab a counterhit on a move that someone uses anticipating something that WON'T stop my momentum from an IAD (usually a 6P of some kind). If you get it low enough, it'll CH any 6P in the game, at no real risk, since it's a projectile.

- There are some matchups in which I choose KD over damage. Against those charas that can outmove you (like Chipp) and against those that have no reliable reversals or other defensive measures (like Eddie). In the later case part of the question certainly is how good you think that your pressure / oki is compared to your zoning skills. Anyhow I guess the only combo where there really is a choice is Axls midscreen throw combo.

I agree with this completely. There are also SOME (very few) matchups where I go for NOT KD, because eventually they'll either keep teching, have no air options vs. me, and die of 2S, or just not tech and get knocked down anyway.

- KDs can go the other way, but I guess we all can agree that the standing character is in the better position than the one lying down . Even if you don't go for a rushdown attempt you can play less aggressive and bait stuff or position yourself in a comfortable distance for poking and then decide if you go for a long range meaty or a slightly not meaty long range move or if you simply see how your opponent moves after he gets up. After a KD the opponent is forced to react to you (even a VV is a reaction to an expected or seen meaty). This opens them up for all kind of mindgames. From my experience even if you are not close when they get up, they never just stand up and go on normally as long as it looks as if your planing something. Either they block for a split second, or they jump / airdash, do a backdash etc.

Agreed also.

short note about staying out of throw range on wakeup (has been mentioned somewhere in the discussion):

If you are confident with your meaties you can actually run up next to them to give them the urge to try to throw you on wakeup. A meaty can't be thrown^^

Are you certain? I'm not 100% sure of this...

(solid players will usually suppress this urge as long as they see that you have the time to do a meaty move, but the option is there). Just keep in mind that you open yourself up for reversals.

Otherwise this is all true.

[Ross]

If you are in throw range and try and meaty, you will get thrown. Even a perfect meaty is throwable. At least as far as I know, throws are instant so yeah...

[Adelheid]

Throw-invincible meaties can't be thrown on wake-up

[Zanken]

If you are in throw range and try and meaty, you will get thrown. Even a perfect meaty is throwable. At least as far as I know, throws are instant so yeah...

Are you sure? I used to dash in throw range with faust and 2p on wakeup, and people would bitch that they weren't able to throw it. That 2p is something like 2 active frames, so I thought I've might just gotten the timing down on their first frame up.

[Adelheid]

They're doing it wrong. There's only a two-frame timing on it, anyway, so if they're not used to doing it perfectly they may well screw it up. But I totally throw people out of meaty attacks all the time.

[Digital Watches]

Yeah, that's what I thought.

[Ross]

They're doing it wrong. There's only a two-frame timing on it, anyway, so if they're not used to doing it perfectly they may well screw it up. But I totally throw people out of meaty attacks all the time.

true reversal throw should be 1 frame. Cause you can't buffer normals only specials.

[Adelheid]

Oh. Well. There you go, even more reason why you would fail even though it's possible.

[Digital Watches]

Nah, reversal timing is easy once you get the hang of it.

[Adelheid]

Oh, I certainly think so as well. But a one-frame input window can explain why someone who hadn't gotten used to it would think something was impossible.

[Shoto]

Well yeah checked it.. you guys were right obviously.. meaties can be thrown Can't belive I've been ignorant to that for such a long time

[GerVer]

- I don't like kokku as a standalone move (same old same old XD). The angle doesn't really fit in with the other air to ground / air to air options Axl has and in many matchups it feels like opening myself up. I agree that the risk of being hit or pressured is not too big and the rewards is quite high (that is if you hit low enough), but that doesn't really mean a thing if the succes rate isn't good, especially as every try costs you 25% tension and end up in a positon where there is nothing for you to do then another kokku or to flee.. I don't see how you could get into an advantage situation from a blocked an FRCed kokku (but well I haven't spent too many thought on this to be honest :P)

Right! If u call advantage having to guard if it gets guarded...at it doesnt works as a cross up meaty. and everything u said, shoto:keke:

- There are some matchups in which I choose KD over damage. Against those charas that can outmove you (like Chipp) and against those that have no reliable reversals or other defensive measures (like Eddie). In the later case part of the question certainly is how good you think that your pressure / oki is compared to your zoning skills. Anyhow I guess the only combo where there really is a choice is Axls midscreen throw combo.

Same here. My style, i play safe till i get a knockdown then i pressure, if no fruit out of it i go back to playing safe.

short note about staying out of throw range on wakeup (has been mentioned somewhere in the discussion):

If you are confident with your meaties you can actually run up next to them to give them the urge to try to throw you on wakeup. A meaty can't be thrown^^ (solid players will usually suppress this urge as long as they see that you have the time to do a meaty move, but the option is there). Just keep in mind that you open yourself up for reversals.

they can, unless youre out of throw range and the hs comes out.Or if the meaty hits from the air, like 6H or j.H. And solid players use option select on wake ups.

I'll admit it's a gimmick, but most of the time I use Kokuu, I try to grab a counterhit on a move that someone uses anticipating something that WON'T stop my momentum from an IAD (usually a 6P of some kind). If you get it low enough, it'll CH any 6P in the game, at no real risk, since it's a projectile.

Valid. But why take that risk, why not keep it on the ground and look for the same thing. Axl is not good if his kd

Well yeah checked it.. you guys were right obviously.. meaties can be thrown

Can't belive I've been ignorant to that for such a long time

it happens:keke:

[Digital Watches]

Er... Like I said, at 25% meter, it's not a risk, and you can do stuff other than guard (it's even a decent tick-throw) if it's blocked.

[Adelheid]

So here's an interesting but stupid oki mixup: Meaty TK Bomber/early TK Bomber > 2K. Axl Bomber has a fairly decent recovery time and then 2K isn't the fastest move in the world, but Axl Bomber's visual effects make it ambiguous as to what you're doing for part of it. It's not something I'd recommend as a real strategy piece due to the whole "well there's 26 frames of recovery and startup there" thing, but it's definitely something I'd do just to screw with people every so often.

[GerVer]

Er... Like I said, at 25% meter, it's not a risk, and you can do stuff other than guard (it's even a decent tick-throw) if it's blocked.

Mhm... U right.