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NickExtreme1

[CS1-CSE] Tsubaki Self-Improvement and Critique Thread

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Process of conditioning with Tsubaki: Masher > stop mashing (gets hit by stuff) > realizes that mashing is better > Starts mashing again and never goes back to not mashing.

Isn't it sad, Tsubaki?

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Hey there fellow Tsubaki players, Grendy here and hoping to get some advice.

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/9379408

This is one of the recordings from PeacefulJay's Live Stream on 9/5/10. The first 5 matches have me in them, after that you can find me spread apart. Im feeling pretty confident about my Tsubaki but theres still plenty I do wrong (some of it I know Im doing wrong, im sure theres other things i just dont know). Im going to my first Tourny with her on the 18th and would love to improve upon my game before heading out there. Any tips at all would be great, I can take the critisism (sp?) so feel free to lay it on me. Hopefully I dont suck to bad.

Thanks in Advance.

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Wow; I watched your first match, and I've got -nothing-. That was serious business. Good luck!

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First round against Noel, could have finished her for sure with super but I imagine that could have been a missed input since I think I saw 22c.

Second round noel: Learn some of the corner 1-2charge install combos. Could have gotten about 1400 more damage off the corner 22d with it.

Should probably be a lot more cautious attacking 50 meter Hazama. Also, missed astral potential!! =P

Pretty sure you can IB Jin's 5d and get a free CH 5b if he dash cancel's. Also saw you did the instal combo so good shit.

Watch that bang 5c.

Overall, I'd say try to work throws into your game more. Try using tk j.236c after blocked 5b, 6c, or 3c and see how you like it as a throw setup. You seemed to do this weird 214a>5b reset that never worked because they teched too high for the 2c to catch them. When you reset you want to have them tech on top of your air unblockable pretty much.

Other than that, very very solid Tsubaki. Opponents dropped a ton of combos so that helped, but still good shit.

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Second round noel: Learn some of the corner 1-2charge install combos. Could have gotten about 1400 more damage off the corner 22d with it.

I actually saw a much strong 22D corner combo tonight, I think it broke 4K. I definetely need to learn this.

Pretty sure you can IB Jin's 5d and get a free CH 5b if he dash cancel's. Also saw you did the instal combo so good shit.

Your right, Jin's 5D > Dash Cancel can be CH 5b'd but Im pretty sure if they input Gale (623C) Then they get the CH. Suppose this is just one of those 50/50 guessing situations. The Install combo was nice I got lucky my opponent chose not to burst.

Overall, I'd say try to work throws into your game more. Try using tk j.236c after blocked 5b, 6c, or 3c and see how you like it as a throw setup. You seemed to do this weird 214a>5b reset that never worked because they teched too high for the 2c to catch them. When you reset you want to have them tech on top of your air unblockable pretty much.

On the subject of throws, I agree whole-heartedly that I need to use them more. My main problem is figuring out when I can mix them in. I recently started using her kara-throw after 5B, 5BB, and 2B. This works out pretty well as long as theres no mashing but Im sure theres alot more places to get it in.

tk.236C seems like a fairly good tool for getting back quickly to the ground but using it multiple times in a match seems to be asking to get punished. I usually use it after a 6C to continue ground pressure but I think Im gonna have to try working it into a grab, that sounds like it'd be a good spot for one.

214a > 5b was more than likely a forced bad habit. I've been using grab - 214b - 5b - air combo for such a long time that I throw the 5b after 214x almost on reaction. Need to get into the habit of 214a > 22c wallbounce or 214a > 2a crossunder. It also might have just been me trying for a bad reset though.

Another thing I have alot of problems with is 22D resets, I can get lucky enough doing a 5CC > 22[D] but I would like to actually have some tech traps up my arsenal. 22C > 22[D] in the corner seems to work if you time it correctly but again, theres just gotta be more opportunities for me to utalize this.

Other than that, very very solid Tsubaki. Opponents dropped a ton of combos so that helped, but still good shit.

Thank you, and thanks for taking the time to watch some of the matches and give me some feedback.

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Your right, Jin's 5D > Dash Cancel can be CH 5b'd but Im pretty sure if they input Gale (623C) Then they get the CH.

I'll vouch for this, his dash cancel 50/50 games're very dangerous

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Thought dash cancels were fixed length, IE he couldn't input anything until the end of the animation so you could just 5b on reaction to the dash.

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Jin 6C/5D has massive blockstun, i'm not really sure Tsubaki 5B(9f startup) can ch his DC if he buffer 623b/super... on my personal experience using Makoto and grab(iirc 8f startup) got punished, similar things happen when the Jin i go against fight another friend of mine who's using rachel, 5B(8f startup) DC punish got ch'ed with his super

well it's easier if there's a frame data for his dash cancel... but can't find it -_-

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For grendy: If you want to hit that midscreen install combo you were going for, do 2366D after you land from j.214d. That will give you the distance you need. If you get them to the corner do 2cc>5c(w)c otherwise just do dash 5b>2cc. Also I wouldn't suggest ending blockstring with something besides 22c. Maybe 214c if you think they are super scared.

Nick: Could have won the match if you just finished the bnb into super instead of doing super after 5cc. Block low more, especially since her high is pretty easy to see. Use j.214c to get out of corner instead of D. D wastes a charge and actually has the same landing recovery as the C anyway.

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Only watched first jin match cause he was getting run over. Nothing to point out except that tk dive dodge and 214b through the ice sword were hot stuff.

Bang match: RC your DPs when they get blocked imo. If you hit with a low CH j.c like that you can usually land and do j.bc>etc for free 2k or so. I'd also suggest every now and then going 5b>6c or 5b>3c. You were getting a ton of CH 5b and not getting anything off it, so if you do those followups and happen to ch you get free 2k+ damage. Safe on block cause you can JC and semi-safe if you aren't predictable. On ch 2c AA you should do a better combo. You lose like 200-300 damage probably by not at least doing dash 5b>2cc>air combo.

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Process of conditioning with Tsubaki: Masher > stop mashing (gets hit by stuff) > realizes that mashing is better > Starts mashing again and never goes back to not mashing.

that's not true! you can stop attacking your opponent and let them counter, if you block/missed or if you know you can counter a counter attack that's good, you punish them . if you can read their movements you owned.

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that's not true! you can stop attacking your opponent and let them counter, if you block/missed or if you know you can counter a counter attack that's good, you punish them . if you can read their movements you owned.

While I commend your response, let me point out the problems in this idea.

First, by your method, you give the character momentum, which is precisely what gets Tsubakis destroyed. Your defensive options, barrier block, dead angle and such are viable, but you are still taking a mixup which requires you to guess. This pressure you voluntarily got yourself in by simple stopping your attack cannot be stopped by your srk because of the nature of it: it's projectile-based, and I'm sure all Tsubakis have felt the frustration of TRADING after an srk, something not in your favor.

This leads to my next point, countering a counter. What do you have to counter a counter with in Tsubaki's arsenal? SRK? Once again, no. You will trade or at worse, not even get the move out and receive damage. If you give the opponent momentum, you shouldn't expect a whiffed move to counter. You should be expecting a SAFE block string to pressure to mixup to damage if you can't defend well.

While playing Tsubaki well is all about reading your opponent well, you actually want to avoid situations where you do have to make an educated guess and punish. All characters in any fighting game want to avoid a situation where they have to guess or get punished, even on pressure. Safety > guess + damage. Safety + potential damage is always better.

Now, imagine this situation where you played against Tager. You hear the Tager player mashing. You stopped your block string because you heard him mashing.

One of a few things could happen.

1)You stopped a block string that left you NEGATIVE on block, and you get punished by a 360.

2) You jump, he stopped mashing after you jumped, he now gets initiative 5cs you 5d's you and is now +2 on block giving him a potential mixup. Do you want to guess a 360, a 2b, or an atomic collider?

3) You stopped your block string, but didn't jump. The Tager player still get a mixup.

4) You try to counter mashing by throwing out an srk, but it turns out the opponent was mashing out a sledge instead, and hit you out of your srk.

All of these are POSSIBILITIES that could happen to you that you DON'T want an opponent to have. If anything at all, Tsubaki has a problem with her block strings because of the nature of her charge delay and IB. If I at anytime IB correctly during your natural blockstring, I can 720 you.

At this point in time, Tsubaki needs help. Everyone knows it. The developer knows it, the players SHOULD know it, and the opponent definitely knows it. Just wait for the patch, which is already showing some Tsubaki favoritism, and then you can possibly revisit your ideas. At the moment, they simply do not work.

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yes! we know all tsubaki player's all of that but my point is about what gensing said. if you mashed you cannot stop mashed. why? and give me a good example why do you don't stop mashing?

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yes! we know all tsubaki player's all of that but my point is about what gensing said. if you mashed you cannot stop mashed. why? and give me a good example why do you don't stop mashing?

It's not that you can't stop mashing, but it is difficult for Tsubaki, in particular, to punish an opponent who mashes to punish Tsubaki. Once again, many of Tsubaki's blockstrings, especially those that involve a charge cancel to continue pressure, leave her negative on block, which results with you getting punished.

If, during these mashings that the opponent gets an accidental instant block during your blockstrings, you are now GUARANTEED to get punished.

Now, with all these stupid factors against Tsubaki, you'd think, why doesn't everyone just mash against Tsubaki then?

I honestly don't know. From my perspective, I don't do it because I prefer to instant block and just punish, which I find more plausible and guaranteed. Mashing can yield results, but those aren't determined by the player who's mashing but by the OPPONENT not knowing and MESSING up. I'd rather control the results of a punish, not my opponent's inability to notice factors.

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You can semi-stop mashing by delaying the next poke very slightly. (Enough to unblock them and then they try and stick something out and get CHed.) However, if they are mashing dp/360a/any reversal move than you have to charge cancel or jump and block. You could do stuff like 5b>late jump forward and barrier to try and bait. It's generally a guessing game in the opponents favor though since you don't normally do a whole lot of damage on a punish.

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You can semi-stop mashing by delaying the next poke very slightly. (Enough to unblock them and then they try and stick something out and get CHed.) However, if they are mashing dp/360a/any reversal move than you have to charge cancel or jump and block. You could do stuff like 5b>late jump forward and barrier to try and bait. It's generally a guessing game in the opponents favor though since you don't normally do a whole lot of damage on a punish.

yes. true you don't have enough damage but you can knock him down again and do another bait to make him counter, and punish again...

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1st match: There were alot of unsafe things you were doing, such as the 236x and j214x on block. Also at the beginning you could've have used your stocks for more, efficient uses lol. I got the hint though that you were only messing around there right? I also think you use JD to charge for quite a while, and this is something you may want to avoid doing because after a hit such as after a 214C hit the opponent can tech fast and quickly approach you again. Try to keep the JD charge to a low charge time. Alternatively, you could use 214D for a much longer charge/untechable time. It'll help to stop some pressure too. If you're going for the 3c on block, cancel by jumping, 236C into kara throw, or CC because it's not safe. You left yourself open with the 3CC at times. If you use 3CC end with maybe 22C? There were also time (or A time) where you stopped your combo with a CC. Why was that?

2nd match:Pretty much everything also there are a few more things. Try not use j214x and j236x alot. Also it looks like you were trying to do stuff on your wakeup and you got punished. Try blocking. Trust me. Simple and basic, especially against bang too.

3rd match:Pretty much the same thing as above.

So, in general:

-Charge for a shorter period of time the closer you are to your opponent.

-If you are close to your opponent 2D is safer to use

-Try not to stop your combos (on hit) with a CC

-Avoid using j214x,236x and j236x so much

I hope my advice helps you.

all the mistakes you made went unpunished.

I'd have to agree with this too unfortunately.

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Oh, there were times when my stick was acting up so my inputs were quite messy. Dropping combos, unable to followup on hits, random Cs out of nowhere, random 214x, random 623x...etc. etc.

And yeah, since it was a casual match, I was messing around with those five charges. I mean, hey, I was given the chance, why not.

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Hum...

The most important thing to point out is to learn and use the 2 charge combos both mid screen and corner off a naked 22D hit. They both easily go over the 4k damage mark and your Hakumen matches would've been over a lot sooner if you had done them.

Too many naked j214 even when you didn't have meter though and luckily you didn't get punished for it a lot but on block, you're in for a world of pain. Watch the use of jD charge and use double jump jD charge in moderation and instead shift to using sjD for dashing options after you confirm how your opponent is responding to it.

Also, it might not be a bad idea to learn her alternative 5BB starter combo, the one that goes 5BB, 5CC, 214A, 22B(wall bounce) 6C follow up. More damage, more heat, more options off air jD because you can dash cancel afterwards. The timing is tricky but it's certainly worth learning.

Hope that helps.

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