[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[The_undercover_beret]

10 hours ago, Karsticles said:

What's the trick to hitting j.2C, 5C after 2C, 214B?  I can only get it 25% of the time.  Either I do j.2C too early, and it whiffs, or I do j.2C too late, and 5C doesn't connect in time.  Sometimes (against Jin) I end up knocking Jin down behind me instead of in front of me.

Day 4 of Hakumen, so advice is appreciated.

After J.214B, the airdash has to be delayed a lit bit. When J.2C hits, Haku-men needs to be close to the ground and a bit lower than the opponent. There is no trick behind it, it's just something that comes with practice.

Here is a visual help:

https://youtu.be/JZZh-GkT630?t=105

[Karsticles]

5 hours ago, The_undercover_beret said:

After J.214B, the airdash has to be delayed a lit bit. When J.2C hits, Haku-men needs to be close to the ground and a bit lower than the opponent. There is no trick behind it, it's just something that comes with practice.

Here is a visual help:

https://youtu.be/JZZh-GkT630?t=105

Thank you.  Would you say that, after getting it down, it's pretty reliable?

[BlackYakuzu94]

Its a pretty good route to learn for the corner carry yea, so it is worth learning I feel.

[Karsticles]

I got it to a 50% success rate today.  Thanks guys!

Is this combo possible?

Throw, OD, 5C, 214A, 41236C, 2C, j.214B, AD, j.2C, 5C, 632146C.

It drops at the second 5C for me, but it might just need really tight timing,

[Koopa_Klawz]

9 minutes ago, Karsticles said:

I got it to a 50% success rate today.  Thanks guys!

Is this combo possible?

Throw, OD, 5C, 214A, 41236C, 2C, j.214B, AD, j.2C, 5C, 632146C.

It drops at the second 5C for me, but it might just need really tight timing,

Tried a few times getting close to the ground with j.2C as much as possible to combo into 5C and the combo is probably too long for that too work. You can, however, replace the 2nd 5C with 5B and it'll still combo into shippu. 

[Karsticles]

6 minutes ago, Koopa_Klawz said:

Tried a few times getting close to the ground with j.2C as much as possible to combo into 5C and the combo is probably too long for that too work. You can, however, replace the 2nd 5C with 5B and it'll still combo into shippu. 

Ah, thank you.  I mostly just wanted to see if I was failing with the timing of the new string I learned or not.  I'll work out a different hit confirm series.

[The_undercover_beret]

14 hours ago, Karsticles said:

 

I got it to a 50% success rate today.  Thanks guys!

Is this combo possible?

Throw, OD, 5C, 214A, 41236C, 2C, j.214B, AD, j.2C, 5C, 632146C.

It drops at the second 5C for me, but it might just need really tight timing,

 

With OD and 8 magatama, here are a few routes that are possible:

B+C > ODc > 41236C(1) > CT > 5C > 632146C(lv2) (6191) - Unburstable at 60% life.
B+C > ODc > 41236C(1) > 623A > 2C > TK J.214B > AD > J.2C > 5C > 632146C(lv2) (6174) - Unburstable at 50% life.

B+C > ODc > 41236C(1) > 623A > 2C > TK J.214B > AD > J.2C > 5C > CT > 5C > 632146C(lv2) (6862) Requires less than 50% life, unburstable at 30%.

 

The first one is very easy and can be done with 6 magatama at full life. The last two are trickier due to the J.2C > 5C.

 

And here is midscreen to corner combo. To give an idea about the distance required, it's from the midscreen starting position in training mode and after a Hop:

B+C > ODc > 41236C(1) > 623A > 2C > TK J.214B > AD > J.C > 5C or 6C(lv1) or 6C(lv2) > 632146C(lv2) (>214A > 5C > 3C)

 

Hitting with 6C is tough and the opponent has to be very close to the ground after J.C, but it gives more time to charge 632146C(lv2) and it is slighty more powerful than 5C. 6C(lv2) is even harder and doesn't really add much.

The part in parentheses is optional, but adds about ~500 damage for one magatama.

 

With 8 magatama there are also Mugen combos:

B+C (>ODc) > 214214B > 41236C(1) > 236B(1)> 623A > Hop J.214A > J.214B > J.214C > 5C > 214A > 623A > 5C > 623AA > 632146C (lv2) (7446) - 41236C and 236B places can be swapped for an easier combo.

B+C (>ODc) 6C > 214214B > 236B(1) > 41236C(1) > 623A > Hop J.214A > J.214B > J.214C > 5C > 214A > 623A > 5C > 623AA > 632146C (lv2) (7790) -

ODc is optional in both of them. An air dash is required between J.214B and J.214C on Bang.

 

Though Mugen combos are more powerful than the regular OD combos, they are not without fault.

Most of all, they require 8 magatama early on in the combo, which is less of a problem with OD combos thanks to flexibiliy granted by the passive meter gain boost.

Moreover, most of the damage come from the last hit, but because the combos are longer, they are only unburstable with OD at very low life (~20%).

 

For more Mugen combos, here is a video Schneider made:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM3Fj7xHAhg

[The_undercover_beret]

Here are a few techs that I have either seen in japanese matches or discovered in training mode. So far, I have only tested them in training mode, so I have no idea how useful they can become.

 

• ... J.C > J.214B > 8jc > Delay J.C > 5C > 6A > 6B > 44 > Slight delay 5C:

 

The 5C hits at the tip of the sword. It covers mashing, forward and back rolls in the corner. Due to the distance, it even makes some reversals whiff (Jin's 623C and 623D(1), Bang's Ashura, Kagura's flashkick, Kokonoe's 214214x...).

I haven't tested it against every character yet, but the 5C whiffs against at least Mu, which can be fixed by walking forward a little instead of delaying the 5C.

 

• ... > hjc J.B > J.2A > J.C:

Works after 6A > 5A > 5A > 5B and OTG 2C but it's character specific.

 

This route works in some combos where the standard J.B > J.2A > 9jc > J.2A > J.C does not, such as B+C > 41236C > 2C ... or IAD  J.A CH > J.B > 5C > 623A > 2C ...

However, it still doesn't cover everything, like 4B+C > 41236 > 2C for instance.

 

Compared to the usual route, it deals less damage, Haku-men lands sooner and the other character is blown away differently. As far as oki is concerned, I tried to look if it had some usefulness compared to the traditionnal route, but couldn't find anything.

 

• 421[A+B]~[4]:

An option select that does 623A during a cross-up and barrier otherwise.

 

From what I have tested though, it could be useful against Ragna's IAD J.623D mix-up.

If the J.623D crosses-up, then 623A will make it whiff and there is enough time to punish it with raw OD > 6C FC/5C.

 

 

[Schneider-X]

Posting this for Moblin since he started talking about Haku vs Koko on twitter :v

Most of it should still be relvant with neutral game, just how we deal with trap and fireball oki will be a little different.

 

[Moblin]

That's a great breakdown of most of the common things in that matchup!  I don't want to get too into depth lest I be told by Mac to bring it to the MU thread.  But, you guys showed how the oki is very open-ended, instead of free for Hakumen just because he can 2D on wakeup.   

 

 

[mAc Chaos]

Go ahead and go in depth.

I can just quote it there.

[Schneider-X]

I'm impressed you watched almost an hour of rambling from the two of us haha

[BlackYakuzu94]

Does most of this apply to CPEX and CF?

[Schneider-X]

neutral game is pretty much the same in CPEX, how we handle oki will be different due to changes to counter.

Don't know if neutral game changes too much in CF.

[Moblin]

Yeah it could have been condensed quite a bit with some video editing and a list made before-hand of what you guys wanted to cover, but it was informational nonetheless.  I also didn't watch a little bit of the end.   Did you guys end up going into how Kokonoe can mixup Hakumen as he comes out of a counter from a projectile?  As in, you summon a trap or fireball and he techs into the hitbox and 2Ds.  Kokonoe can jump over the hitbox(in previous versions) or just jump in on hakumen as he comes out of the counter animation.  

[Schneider-X]

8 hours ago, Moblin said:

Did you guys end up going into how Kokonoe can mixup Hakumen as he comes out of a counter from a projectile?  As in, you summon a trap or fireball and he techs into the hitbox and 2Ds.  Kokonoe can jump over the hitbox(in previous versions) or just jump in on hakumen as he comes out of the counter animation.  

No we didn't really go over that.  It's generally more rewarding for the Kokonoe to try and mess up the initial counter timing before it goes off than play around the hitbox.  Though that may just be my friend since he has had bad luck with counter grabs grabbing him from long distances in previous versions.

[Kokurokoki]

Is this combo worth the amount of magitama consumed?

gurren > zantetsu (1st hit only) > CT > 5B > j.c > j.5B > j.2A > j.c > j.2A > j.5C

 

It hits pretty hard so long as I combo it from 5B or 5C, but it drops to 3.8k if I do it out of an S-starter.  Is it worth learning?  The input is fairly easy, but I don't want to spend time learning a combo if there's a better one.

edit:  For other Hakumen players.  Starting from Gurren the combo will hit for about 5.1k damage.  You can also spend an extra magitama to use Renka as a starter instead for the low hit and an extra 100-ish damage.

[Moblin]

In CPEX, that combo seems pretty okay for the damage.  However,  I would change it to:

5b > Gurren > Zantetsu (1st hit only) > CT (charged), 2C launcher into ending staircase.  

 

After the charged crush trigger,  you can also do 5C > kishuu, 2C > Ending staircase.

 

Any other hakumens that remember CPEX combo theory can correct me on this

P,S, Wanted to say, only use this combo from a good starter.  short starters are rarely worth dumping magatama into in CPEX unless you want the kill/extra but inefficient damage.

 

[Kokurokoki]

4 hours ago, Moblin said:

P,S, Wanted to say, only use this combo from a good starter.  short starters are rarely worth dumping magatama into in CPEX unless you want the kill/extra but inefficient damage.

 

You mean like from 5C or 2B?  I've noticed that I actually can't do the staircase finisher if I start with 5A > 5B.  The opponent can tech out of it while being juggled after the first J.5B > j.2A.

I'm still noob to Hakumen and Blazblue in general, so I've been playing around with combos a lot in training mode to see which ones are the most efficient.  About 1k per magitama seems like a good estimate, and the previous combo hits about 5k for 5 magitama so long as I use 5B or 5C as a starter.  Starting it with j.5B > 5B/2B actually kills its damage by about 1k. 

It's extremely easy to do for how much damage it does though.  So I might use it as a punisher for when the opponent messes up or I can get a good hit in.

Also, when you 2C people do you always have to super jump?  Super jump right now is the bane of my existence because I can't input it fast enough on the controller.  It's a case of me not conditioning myself properly yet, but it seems almost all of Hakumen's 2C launchers require a super jump.

Another question, does charging Hakumen's CT do anything?  I'm not finding any info on the dustloop wiki so I'm wondering what the purpose of the charge is.

[Moblin]

On 12/8/2016 at 11:18 AM, Kokurokoki said:

You mean like from 5C or 2B?  I've noticed that I actually can't do the staircase finisher if I start with 5A > 5B.  The opponent can tech out of it while being juggled after the first J.5B > j.2A.

I'm still noob to Hakumen and Blazblue in general, so I've been playing around with combos a lot in training mode to see which ones are the most efficient.  About 1k per magitama seems like a good estimate, and the previous combo hits about 5k for 5 magitama so long as I use 5B or 5C as a starter.  Starting it with j.5B > 5B/2B actually kills its damage by about 1k. 

It's extremely easy to do for how much damage it does though.  So I might use it as a punisher for when the opponent messes up or I can get a good hit in.

Also, when you 2C people do you always have to super jump?  Super jump right now is the bane of my existence because I can't input it fast enough on the controller.  It's a case of me not conditioning myself properly yet, but it seems almost all of Hakumen's 2C launchers require a super jump.

Another question, does charging Hakumen's CT do anything?  I'm not finding any info on the dustloop wiki so I'm wondering what the purpose of the charge is.

Right, any combo starting with the A button is probably not going to be worth putting much of your meter into because the proration makes the combo less damaging if not impossible to complete fully.   If you hit with 2a, chaining it into 3C for knockdown is essential until you land a better starter.

 

2c super jumping can be tricky - there are two types of situations that tell you when to super jump.  If you hit them with 2C while they are airborne, you may very well have to super jump.  I remember it taking me forever to get super jumping down, too, so just practice it every day.   However, if you hit them with a move like 6b counter hit, or Zantetsu you can 2C and do the staircase with a normal jump because they were on the ground when they were launched.

Charging Hakumen's CT was the first and only CT the did something different when charged in CPEX, as far as I remember.  It launched them higher, which is necessary for certain corner combos where you want to do CT(charged), 6C.  

Get Central Fiction when you can and we can play!

 

 

[Kokurokoki]

Thank you for the insight.  I will definitely test out the CT to see if it launches them higher.  Thanks for telling me about the 5A starters, I'll remember to either go into 3C or do some 2 magatama thing with it.  I think 5A/2A > 2B can combo into Kishuu(2) > staircase.

Unfortunately I will have to wait until the PC release of Central Fiction as I no longer have a PS4.  Otherwise I'll have to buy Central Fiction and then play it on the PS4 at my college. 

 

[Kokurokoki]

So messing around with combos some more... I think I have some pretty basic combos you can do without having to OD.

Base Combo: Gurren > Zantetsu (2) > 2C > 5B > j.5B > j.2A > j.c. > j.5B > j.2A > j.5C

Damage: 4571

Magatama: 4

I think in terms of damage and efficiency this combo is probably easiest to pull off.  It can combo off of pretty much anything.  Doing j.5B > 5B/2B bumps its damage down to 3.5k, which is still pretty decent for just 4 magatama, whereas catching your opponent with j.5C > 5C will let you do about 4575 and j.5B > 5C will give you about 3950 damage.  This is so far the easiest BnB so far for Hakumen, as from my experience as a noob Kishuu can be difficult to hit confirm off of a 5B and it's fairly difficult to hit with 5C.  The most difficult part is Gurren > Zantetsu, but Zantetsu is so integral to Hakumen's damage game that most players should probably focus being able to muscle memory it off of Gurren/Renka.  One weakness of the combo is that it, if my terminology is correct, resets the game back to neutral.  That's going to be tough if you're fighting opponents that can outzone and outplay Hakumen in neutral (Izayoi, Hazama I think).  I guess you could throw in a hotaru and try to do an AD throw reset, but I haven't played too much against players so I can't really say beyond theories based on watching a lot of arcade videos.

You can also get a nice 4.6k damage combo off of CH 3C by going 2B > Gurren > Zantetsu (slight delay) > 2C > staircase.  You can do this from starting distance of the stage against some larger characters like Hakumen/Tager.