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Kyle

[CS2] Carl Clover Tactical Discussion/Questions/Help

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In CS1 I can understand what you mean with that. Carl as i always saw it was a character that focused on flow, much like ragna, but to a much more exaggerated extent. He has a hard time getting it, but once he does, pressure was ridiculous, damage was high, and mix up went from either nuts to unblockable.

CS2 He traded both his pressure and damage for oki, which is going to hurt him in the end. I would have understood a slight nerf to Nirvana's health if they gave him oki, because otherwise his flow would never stop (combo/pressure>reset/big damage>oki>repeat), but taking away half of it destroyed his pressure, which hurts his mixup and ups his risk. I don't care so much about his damage considering universal damage nerfs across the board. As Akira said, we still do dam well mid screen compared to most of the cast. I hate the fact Nirvana took such a huge hit to her life bar. That's the nerf that is gonna worry me more than anything.

As for the nerfed viv A, the more I think about it, so long as 6A becomes a realistic AA, I won't be too saddened from its nerf. People usually approach carl from the air anyway from the usual CNO setup so this could work to our advantage.

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Akira-shiro where are you getting your numbers and combos from? I've gone to jbbs many times, and the highest damaging meterless combos I've seen max out at around 3.2k for practically all her bar.

Are you taking CS1 combos and mistaking them for CS2? I would like to see your source.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szKIHzNSqZI&feature=related

8:49 6D>J.c>5b>5C>Cantabile>5C>J.b>J.2c>J.b 10hits 2.8K & it was a droped combo.

10:40 CH Brio>5C>J.b>dj.b>J.c>Brio>3C>Gear DD>8D 3.4k

Why he did a second brio idk, because nirvana still has the worst same move proration ever.

With this i was able to see carls true potential. & its good his dmg & oki & the hole nirvana thing aint that bad, her Hp is that low because of how good Carls oki is.

If u all cant see his potential then its something seriously wrong.

In CS1 every time Carl fights someone that character is goin to turtle there ass off, now even if u catch then it wouldnt always be guaranteed dmg. Like u hit them with J.B in the air, if its not a CH they tech a continue to run. Who knows when the next time ull catch them. Iv fought so many people who would jump spam just because Carls air hit conferm is shit if Ada aint there for a follow up.

So the gave us the new J.c, so even if we dont get dmg we get oki.

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Even if u do catch them in ur stongest combo, if ur Hp is lower best believe they gonna tech and start turtling all over again. 3D puts a stop to that, u finish a 5K combo FUCK THE RESET lol it can kiss my ass im using it for pressure. 5K combo into J.2c>J.c>3D they forced to stand so i can keep pressuring ether they block or take a forced reset by 5B>6B. How 5B hits but 6B dont combo. If its one thing i cant stand its people who keep turtling.

So if Nirvanas Hp was still high CARL WOULD BE GOD, & all would bow down before him.. Its only natural that Arks would give her low Hp. With J.b>J.2c it dont even matter, Just kno now as a carl player the only time they can run is when u let them go.... which is when Ada hp get low so if they run, well... they just stupid lol & it makes it better for u.

Plus u got the second best anti-air in the game so even if u do let them out ur pressure cause of Adas low Hp they gotta think hard to try & gey back in. 5C to stop ground attempts & the new & improved 6a for AD's

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Ahh, Akiro... (-_-)

lol.

Ignoring everything else, just fyi; if they're running away, it isn't because you let them go. It's because they're running away and Carl is ass at catching anyone.

It's actually very easy to stay away from Carl.

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lol wat im talkin about lettin them go out ur pressure, with carl once he catch u its no way out. Except IB to DD, & i kno how horrible carl is at being Cat in a game of Cat & Mouse. But CS2 carl its harder for them to get away is wat im sayin. Cs1 all u gotta do is wait for the right time to tech & ur out. After a combo in CS1 u end it with 8D, the COULD tech when they touch the ground but smart people will wait & roll at the right time to get out. Or after a burst, they fly into Ada once again they wait then roll away.

CS2 u dont get the chance to tech & 3D makes it so they to scared to roll & risk a UB reset so they would rather tech & try to block. Ether way runnin after carl finishes a combo is impossible. "Unless u let them out" If u feel like Adas Hp is to low dont do reset & there natural instinct will tell them "GET OUT, NOWS UR CHANCE" But in actuality u didnt reset them cause Ada Hp is low.

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being forced to block 3D on tech has no significance if Carl's mixup game is weak after you've learned the matchup.

The major problem with carl is that he cannot compete in damage off random hits and his low life/inability to be either cat or mouse.

In a nutshell, his mixup game (on block) breaks down to like

A/5B -> iad j2c crossover

6B -> 6C

6C

his mixup game becomes stronger if he does it off hits because the j2c crossover becomes inescapable (off 5B blocked, you can just jump it), but in the end, its still just a crossover off all his hits (6B -> crossover, 5B crossover, everything crossover)

I don't know, stronger oki means nothing to me if the mixup game remains the same. His game isn't like Makoto/Noel (or even bang/ragna for weaker characters) where things leaves them in advantage of frames/range and you're afraid of pressing buttons/reacting due to frame traps and whatnot, so they can consistently dish out even small damage or keep pressure. Carl's game is a burst of mixups, which is now just 1 or 2 because of nirvana's health, and it doesn't even do enough damage due to damage/life ratio.

I don't know, Japan always ranks Carl as A (even now i think) i never really understand why. I sometimes think its because they never end up playing against the same person for too long so Carl has an advantage that way, his mixups are hard to react to but once you know them, its really easy to guess whats coming and block imo.

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No. You're oversimplifying things waaay to much.

Your list of mixups is absolutely unimaginative. Carl has so many ways of breaking ones guard. You forgot about:

- tick throws (volante, 5A, 2A, etc...)

- 6C RC 2A (if opponent blocks 6C)

- j.2C allecan for throw bait

- crossup vivace into 4D or 3D

- UNBLOCKABLES FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!

- Jumping up to trick the opponent into standing only to get hit by 3D

- Jumping up to trick the opponent standing only to have to block an 8D then kara-air dash in.

- 8D during a block string if the opponent is really jumpy. Cause... you know... its AIR UNBLOCKABLE

- Rhapsody of Memories mixups

I do all of these. Yes there is an answer to each of these things but there is no universal answer to this many mixups. If you're mixup game is getting predictable then Carl still has plenty of other mixups and baits to counter your opponents escapes.

Often times when I have the opportunity to do an airdash j.2C crossup after a blocked 5B, I don't do it. This way it will keep my opponent guessing, so farther down the road so when I do actually go for the crossup it will actually work.

How is 3D not better oki than anything that we already have in CS1? We can do out air juggles and not have to worry about people rolling or not teching when we want them to. THAT IS BIG!!!

Last couple of things, Carl can definitely get more than just "2" mixups with Nirvana's health. Yes her health is smaller than I would like it but geez don't exaggerate like that. Carl's damage definitely rivals most of the cast. Don't even try to compare him to Noel or Hazama, they are freaks. But seriously, by no means does Carl have the worst damage output.

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im not saying its not better oki, i'm just saying better oki doesn't mean much when they restrict the other factors needed for a proper followup of the oki (read as, nirvana bar)

and for each of your options

tick throws -> volante option is gone now, ending a combo with 3D, then doing a block string into volante, then doing the throw will kill nirvana too much i would imagine. Asides from that, throw combos do crappy damage (?) and is injustice for nirvana bar (or whats left of it)

6C RC 2A -> desperate <2k damage for 50% meter

j2C allecan throw bait -> If you're training them to tech throws from a 3D, its probably a purple throw. if you're doing a tick throw to train them, then the game has no improvements from CS1, except now coupled with low nirvana bar and damage.

crossup vivace into 4D -> one mixup which i forgot, which never works anymore once people get used to it, on block, 6B really only goes into this mixup unless you want to die... and remember you're doing this from 3D, nirvana is already half dead by the time you do this.

unblockables -> if you can pull it off, sure i guess. doesn't mean nirvana is still gonna live

jumping -> we're still talking about forcing people to block the 3D right? so how is this a mixup anymore? they tech and block the 3D regardless if you're jumping or not. i would think you don't float long enough to actually get a mixup off a 3D -> jump straight up

Incase you misunderstood me, I'm just saying, the 3D game isn't going to cover what carl has lost. 3D doesn't do anything as an oki tool, 3D into pickup into j2C jB jC is where the game needs to evolve to for carl to do anything, but even when it does get to that stage, his inherit weaknesses aren't gone.

And i'm saying, you're going to spend half your nirvana bar catching your opponent, at that point you only have 2 mixups.

I'm also saying Carl has the worst damage output off random hits, he also has the worst options off random hits. Obviously if you're hitting them while they happen to be in NOC then you do decent damage (~3k with the new j2c jb loop) but how often does that arise if they're trying to stay away from you? Most vids nowadays starts off with carl chasing like crazy, getting some sort of random hit -> 623C blah jb jc fucoco vivace, but then that situation does not allow you to get into a decent mixup opportunity imo. Theres the volante relaunch combos but they don't lead you to oki.

All the mixups you listed were available in CS1 and aren't set up differently just because we gained this new oki game. All i'm trying to say is, this new oki game isn't as good as you think.

imaginative mixups are nice, but fundamentally the mixups are all weak and lead to weak things due to various reasons.

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No I'm not basing these mixups off a 3D. Although some of them would work off of a 3D. I now understand that your list was solely for mixups off of 3D, for that, I am sorry I misread that. But some of the mixups that I mentioned will still work. You do not have to mixup the opponent the moment he/she comes out of 3D. If you keep the opponent in hitstun or block stun after the 3D you'll be able to go into most of those mixups shortly afterwards. Thus you're still not just limited to what you posted. Most of these mixups and ones other people do can work fine off of the j.2C jB combo

And once again, Nirvana does not lose half her life in just 1 combo. Yes she has less health but my gosh you can take off huge chunks of the opponents life before she's done. There will be times when, yes, Nirvana doesn't have as much health to do too much because you spent a lot of her meter chasing the opponent. But that will not always be the case I guarantee it. You mentioned a lot of ways of getting around the mixups I posted (which I mentioned there would be) but I promise you if your mixup game is strong enough these will still work. If one mixup is not working for you then bait counter attempt by your opponent or do another mixup.

I agree with you on quite a few things. Also you maaay have a point on worst damage off of random hits (that award may actually go to non-curse mode arakune) but for worst options I need an example.

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Wat ur not realing is that this isnt CS1 Carl. U can hold pressure with just carl alone. 2a>5a>2a>5a>6c works alot for me and UB are easyer to pull off. Also fuaco into vivace B at the beginning of the round is an instant turtle killer. Also after ur J.c who said u had to use ada like i said ur allowed to start carl pressure .

After a combo people tech a run again, but once they realise my Hp is higher they come at me. CS1 i couldn't really stop them from coming in. CS2 ur anti-air can stop tagers elbow drop easily

An iv said this once but obviously i gotta say it again. Nirvanas multiplyer went up..... regular 6d cost 5% & 2D cost 7% if u leave her on durin combo it increase how much meter it takes. so a combe like

5b>5c>6D>J.c>5b>5c>6D>5b>5c>Cantabile>5c>2D, 3 nirnvana attacks 6D=5% 2nd 6D=8% 2D=13% of her bar so the total combo took 26% of her bar.... not precise % but u get the idea.

They also increased the amount of dmg she take from hits. So its not that she dies faster just gets hit harder

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See, problem with that is 9.5 K of health. Sure you can pressure with carl alone, but you're only allowed 2-3 screw ups before you're dead. CS1 tao has the same problems. The thing is, tao never had to commit to a block string. She could just drive midway through for free escape/mixup/crossup. Carl can't do that. If he actually had decent options for finishing off block strings by himself, I wouldn't mind, but he has what, 5b(for not so good escapes or crossovers that every1 and their grandma know), 5C, maybe 6C if you are daring? He completely relies on his nee-san to make it so he doesn't turtle for more than half the match. Since she can't support you as long with her life bar, you'll be going in on suicide missions for a good time or blocking.

I do agree she needed a life bar nerf. I've said this. But making it so hits are twice as effective is not the way to go. That's just gonna make carl turtle the hell out of every match, and with his horrid defense either ensure death for him or timeout. I do believe there is plenty of untapped potential for carl still. I still can't believe all the things lambdas have been finding lately that would've been helpful in the Nu days. However, with Nirvana's low resistance to damage, it's gonna be hard to milk anything out of her for the moment.

Anyway, who else thinks that the volante crossover in this match is cool?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LSyddF3nT8

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If u look at 9:45 of that vid u can see he was about to do an attack with ada but didnt cause of her low hp.

That was a prime example of how to play carl. An Nirvana didnt die not once.

Again at 9:30 he starts a combo, ends it wit J.c but doesnt teleport Nirvana till a few secs later, the key to playin carl in this one is knowing when to abuse her & when not to.

Dont run around spaming brio, be patient & use the correct move at the right time. And play a lil solo carl when needed to give Ada that extra sec to charge, before bringing her in the fight.

An at 9:55 the 3D thing into a free reset was exactly wat iv been talkin about, burst/CA into 3D into free UB. I would so trade CS1 carl for CS2 carl anyday.

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Ya, when I saw that volante cross up I went into training mode to try and find a way to mimic that. The JC knockdown in CS2 makes this setup a lot easier to do. The best I could come up with in CS1 is 5B, 5C, 421]D[, rapid, IAD J.2C, Alle~can, 5B, 6B, vivace. Volante will hit after the 6B. Haven't had a chance to test it in battle. I don't find myself that much in front of Nirvana too often. I'm always hiding behind her, lol.

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the 1st time he did the volante crossover, he couldnt follow it up. Volante's hitstun isnt enough to make it a worthwhile setup because if you vivace early so you can recover and combo from it, they can block the volante since its easy to spot coming.

the 2nd time he did the volante crossover, bang just jumped it and was playing dumb and landed into a 5A

sorry but I can't consider things that arent rewarding and hits more like a gimmick a legit setup.

Learning when to stop attacking with Nirvana is obviously one of the most important things to do with Carl. The point that I'm trying to make is not that "you can't spam nirvana anymore", its more along the lines of "Carl's gameplay is restricted because you have to constantly stop nirvana even when you've worked hard to earn a situation". In the 2nd round alone, Nirvana almost died twice before he actually got the sandwich (situation u're working for the whole round). So what happens when he finally gets the sandwich (at 9:45)? He had to stop Nirvana like you said. What would have happened if he didn't use Nirvana like he did before he got the sandwich? The game might have looked very different because he wouldn't do nearly as much damage as he did with bang running into random 4Ds and Brio (4Ds were this carl's major points of damage, tell me how many 4Ds you normally see work in higher level play).

Carl no longer has the freedom of playing a zoning game with nirvana while at the same time playing a mixup/pressure game due to Nirvana's life. This Carl is a perfect example where he sacrifices sandwich pressure to do random volantes/brios/4Ds that the bang didn't know how to deal with. There were maybe only once or twice where he did a weak sandwich pressure which was easily blockable (bang didn't block it though) due to nirvana's limitations.

and am I seriously the only one who sees that the bang doesn't know how to play against carl (or wasn't impressive in general)? I've never seen someone eat so many 4Ds in 2 rounds.

Obviously Carl will always have the upper hand against people who don't know how to deal with him. All my points that I talk about goes towards a high level play where opponents are actually at equal levels. If you want to put it in a sense that Carl can rape people who don't know the matchup, i completely agree. I think hes probably the best character in the game if you want to put it that way. What I'm talking about is once people know how to deal with carl and his moves/properties, hes not a solid character at all.

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U can never learn how two fight carl because he has so many options. for example most people run when they fight carl.... ok sit back & spam volante. But every time u do it let Ada regenerate then do it again.....

They are going to come to u after like 5 secs of that, & when they do just let then.. & boom punish them for tryin to come in, And volante does chip so if they do get hit even once. Uv automatically got the upper hand. Its easy for carl to be annoying a full screen then anyone else..

Ur making it seem at tho every time u catch them Nirvanas hp is going to be low and your opponent is winning. That would barely happened. Cause it never happened that entire fight.

Sure that bang aint kno how to fight carl, ok in a fight of two high level player they are going to turtle against carl. Hit them once with Nirvana, it dont matter with wat they all do chip dmg. And uv automatically got the upper hand, just wait and punish everything. Cause the beauty of BB is that if u winning they have to come to u

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Mmm.. yeah.. but still.

Carl without Kyaku and Ranrero isnt Carl... serisuly. They are my people to follow XD.

I haven't been following since about page 4 so I don't know if it was posted, but since you seem to be a fan (I am too) of Ranrebo, he's in a quite a few fights from this latest a-cho vid

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lol that loop at the end confirmed carl still being pretty good damage wise, and didn't even require that much meter. All you need is enough meter for a 6D, the ability to have nirvana on afterword, and a reset if necessary. His damage is fine there and you only needed about 2 nirvana attacks for about 3K plus reset. However, the problem with his mixup still remains as to when he finally catches the opponent. Still, with this, I can be a bit happy since this is something good for our damage without alot of need for meter. Maybe we can save meter for actual mixup rather than damage.

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lol will be interesting to see how many [j.b j.2c]xn's we can fit in on what charachters off what starters i guess. ... maybe interesting isnt the word. but a good thing to know anyways.

Interesting note of that vid: anyone else notice the fermatta off of single hit clap? that consistent? Would be cool to know.

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I haven't been following since about page 4 so I don't know if it was posted, but since you seem to be a fan (I am too) of Ranrebo, he's in a quite a few fights from this latest a-cho vid

Hey, thank for the vid.. Sad that ranrero loose against makoto. Seem that makoto is going to be a really troublesome match for Carl.

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Makoto is no where near a hard matchup for carl, IB Vivace is a guarantee on her because of her lack of range. & she doesnt recover that fast off wiffed attacks.

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Makoto is no where near a hard matchup for carl, IB Vivace is a guarantee on her because of her lack of range. & she doesnt recover that fast off wiffed attacks.

Remember, CS2 IBs are half as good and Vivace A has no invuln, escaping Makoto's pressure isn't as easy as CS1

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Interesting note of that vid: anyone else notice the fermatta off of single hit clap? that consistent? Would be cool to know.

That's actually nothing new. Nirvana's recovery from 8D has always been fast. For, instance, even in CS after a 4D hit you catch the opponent with 5C and then aircombo them into allegretto and then into an 8D. Because you and the opponent were so far away from Nirvana because of the 4D, by the time the opponent makes it all the way to the 8D Nirvana would have already recovered and you could do a fermata if you wanted to. The reason double 8D hits are necessary for other combos is because you allegretto'd the opponent too close to the 8D and nirvana needs just a smidget more time recover.

In the case of the latest video the Carl did 8D early enough so Nirvana was ready for an immediate fermata. Cause we all know 8D lasts forever.

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