Aquapazza: Aqua+ Dream Match

[sibladeko]

How does having 2B deal with Chizuru or Tamaki anything when I cannot use 5B 2C 5C 623 214 w/o meter? Does that normal somehow magically let me deal with trying to anti-air these two (three if you count Karulau) without risking everything on 623 hoping they don't know how to safe jump? What lets me deal with Satsuki shot -> 66C? What lets me deal with Tamaki anything? You used to main Sasara but I'm pretty sure you switched off her cause she sucked (as did all of Norcal), you said as much on stream. Comparing a "glaring weakness" of Chizuru vs a "glaring weakness" of Sasara is like night and day in terms of impact.

 

Also on paper?

Do you actually have another legitimate Chizuru over there to play against?  It's not like you can clone yourself to go 4:6 with your Sasara against your Chizuru.  I assume you go 4:6 to even with Pain's Tamaki with Sasara?

[Luis]

sibladeko where's that article that explains the characters places on the list? Is it translated?

[sibladeko]

http://www.mediafire.com/view/qoizgmrad32dv0b/Aquapazza_Arcadia_Tier_List.png I translated most of it informally up there, but I'm definitely not word for word or remotely keeping with the tone of the article.

[ehuangsan]

We don't really have another legit Chizuru, but we do have a fairly legit Sasara who I tell to do this, do that, don't do this, etc when I mess around in casuals with Chizuru.

Yes, I also ran Sasara and other characters many times against Pain fairly recently to give him an idea as to what other characters play like. He blew me up until I learned that 5B, 2C, 5C, etc. are not allowed.

 

So basically you are left with 2A, 5A, 2B and situational jumpins to work with, along with the occasional 5B 2C Ma-Ryan cancel.

 

It turns out that that is good enough if you play like you are C/N Iori from CvS2 and enter into massively high variance hitting and footsie wars, though I guess if you don't know what that looks like then you'll have to dig up CvS2 match vids involving Iori. Sasara does not lose by much to either character in damage, and Sasara's 2A and 2B allow her to attack both Chizuru and Tamaki. So basically you are going to call Ma-Ryan, do ground dash shenanigans of 2A or throw while trying to constantly keep emotion high. 2B is safe on block so you can get away with 2A xn, pause for poke whiff, try for 2B, or dash throw, etc. Jumping is not really an option for either character, since Sasara's AAs are strong, especially against Chizuru.

 

Yeah, once you lose the initiative it can be hard to get it back, but again, you can fight back with 5A, 2A and trying for 2B or other shenanigans. Once I started to play like CvS2 Iori, the games looked very ugly, but I was able to compete at about a 4:6 clip against Pain.

 

That being said, I will personally pick up the tab for drinks for anyone that can beat Pain in a FT10 with Riannon, so long as someone records video of such a match.

[purify]

Pretty interesting, but Touka puzzles me as well. I really hope "rekkas are hard" is more something like it being hard to confirm off of cr.B.

Chizuru right next to Karulau, wow...

[sibladeko]

Aquapazza rematch button is the most dangerous button in the game, you just keep hitting it like a hamster in a cage for pellets. This weekend at Chris-mas (Nadakaineko's birthday gathering) I think I played something like 50 matches each with LBS (learning Tamaki, has secretly ripped the frame data so he knows Llyr's exact hitbox which pissed me off greatly) and sumazndude (Hakuowlo)

I like a "I don't play this game" ken/sumazndude over ragna hades any day! (not so subtle callout that will never be completed since ken will never leave the East Coast); but especially after watching the most recent NorCal install lark linked me (tl;dr I really like pain's play how did he lose to ragnahades, ernest stop doing wake up Chizuru 214B against non-Riannons how does no one there know how to punish you for this, ragna hades please stop mashing at terrible points and please realize when Chizuru 66C has been done early and is at negative instead of backdashing after it every single time and eating a 5A that you could have mashed against) Thanks Lark all you did was make me want to buy a ticket to evo. To play Aquapazza against Norcal. AKA the worst use of 600$+.

In other news KVO happened this weekend, though really on Japan's Monday, as it is the start of Golden Week. And I got tricked, because key Morgan entered the brackets last second (he was thrown into bracket 1), where he proceeded to beat kouya, take the bracket, and take the tournament. OZ mafia wins again. That being said I got a lot of the other picks right so here they are:
Bracket 1: key Morgan (I was totally wrong for this bracket because key hadn't entered yet during predictions)
Bracket 2: gobou Karulau (1st pick)
Bracket 3: hino Morgan (1st pick)
Bracket 4: itorin Morgan (1st pick)
Bracket 5: akatsuki Touka (2nd pick)
Bracket 6: mizuchama Hakuowlo (1st pick, man gamera even got to finals and STILL lost the Sasara:Hakuowlo matchup. That's just depressing since it's so bad for Haku)
Bracket 7: nao Chizuru (3rd pick)
Bracket 8: nobi Tamaki (1st pick, I didn't think Sanada Arawn would beat GO1 Chizuru though)

Match videos are archived on Twitch here (warning, may include Marvel):
http://www.twitch.tv/godsgarden/b/525961868
http://www.twitch.tv/godsgarden/b/526038884
http://www.twitch.tv/godsgarden/b/526052561

[lark]

I can't wait for this amazing sibladeko vs ehuangsan FT10 high-stakes money match (probably low-stakes).

[ehuangsan]

Guess the only way to resolve this is to have a NorCal vs East Coast 5v5 or something at Evo. MMs also work too, but I guess most people will be poor coming into EVO.

RagnaHades is almost certainly the best Hakuwolo in the US especially compared to some guy who just picked up the game, since there are a lot of nuances that are not easy to pick up with him.

 

Also FWIW, after consulting with a rather high level JP AP player about the arcadia tiers I have now come to fully accept them as correct.

[sibladeko]

Slight clarification, LBS is the one who just picked up the game (and subsequently dumped the frame data). sumazndude (the Hakuowlo) has been playing the game since release, and he was initially very hype for the game, it has more or less died out though but he will randomly play again when forced/coerced/tricked into doing so. He's very aware of a lot of the nuances.

 

Also there is a Gamera (no1 Sasara) vs QZ kumite uploaded now, it was a very interesting format where he had 10 lives to go through the entire cast, as played by QZ mafia. The first half is all alts and comedy and then he hits daigohei Karulau and the suffering begins.

 

Who is your source by the way? When we went to Japan for Comiket/Arcana we mainly associated with Owen aka multipro but his main game is Arcana so even though him and morikuma hit top 8 in Examu Cup I accept that viewpoint being probably skewed.

[ehuangsan]

Mojirice, he plays Tamaki/Yu and is one of the best players in Hokkaido. Also qualified for EXAMU cup.

He plays melty as well, but for now his main game is AP.

I play him a lot online because for whatever reason we luck into a fairly stable 3 bar connection most of the time, and he appears to enjoy bodying me at a 20:1 ratio.

 

He showed me the Touka stuff since he also sides Touka, and yeah, it's very BS.  Basically it is possible to be vortexed to death off of one knockdown unless you are Tamaki.

And it may be because everyone played Chizuru in the beginning at AP, but the general feeling is that Chizuru is more or less solved outside of certain hi/low situations where the other side simply has to guess and certain katame situations, which makes sense to me since it always seemed like she was a rather straightforward character. However, obtaining those situations has now become quite hard, as I have learned from playing hundreds of games against him.

[nadakaineko]

I mean -- isn't Morgan more or less the same? KD -> safe jump 50/50 all day, erry day? Touka has hi/low from 2B/TK Tenza but you can react to 2B if you block high first (assuming TK Tenza). It's been awhile since I watched AP in depth, but doesn't she lose momentum post combo?

[ehuangsan]

5C > 66 is also extremely hard to deal with, and that's where the vortex resets if Touka used an assist to bring you down with a stupid mixup beforehand. Touka has only a symbolic frame disadvantage because she could go into counter super or air super, and from Touka's point of view, going in from the 66 and gaining high emotion is more important than the possibility of going wrong off the 66 and losing life. Worst is if she normal throws you to allow for assist recovery.

[sibladeko]

5C>66 is negative and only works on Sasara because you can cancel into short hop jump attack over her 5A/2A if she tries to mash so she can't deal with it. Almost every other character can mash something on a Touka that does 5C>66 even if shorthop cancelled, including herself. Also, the reasoning with assist cover doesn't explain why the best Toukas use Rina assist, the ability to keep a vortex going goes way down, instead you go for the burst damage and resets. Touka's good, but I don't see how you maintain a vortex when everyone else up there at the top has pretty good reversals, and I think that's why the best ones go for Rina.

 

Also Gamera got robbed in that kumite, everyone else in previous sets got a FT5 with every member, instead he has 10 lives and the last half is daigohei Karulau, key Morgan, batta Konomi, nobi Tamaki, batta Touka, ?? Riannon, Oz Chizuru. Spoilers he loses 3 times on daigo and 7 freaking times on nobi and doesn't even make it to the end. Extremely depressing. At least he won vs key and batta, which I sort of expected, as those aren't terrible matchups.

 

I see you on twitter hitting up Morikuma, and he's calling in OZ for help so that'll be very helpful. When Mori RTed my predictions to the other players they laughed, but only cause I thought itorin switched to Chizuru　（I hate alias clowns). That and nobi was like "kaiser's good vs Tamaki? hahahaha," which is one of the two matches I got wrong. That American diagram you listed is OK, I'd have put Touka Morgan above Multi Arawn though.　Touka is a good character, I just don't think she's A and if she is, she's below everyone else in there.

[ehuangsan]

Yeah I hit him up because I wanted a second opinion from someone other than Mojirice. 

But apparently the negative aspect of 5C>66 doesn't matter if you are doing it from tip of 5C, which reduces the frame disadvantage to something negligable as touka can also apparently just block if she doesn't want to go into short hop B, air super, counter super or whatever so you cannot simply mash, unless you are Tamaki.

Mojirice thinks Yuma is stronger and I am kinda biased towards that after getting bodied by that team from playing him. When Touka has Yuma, you absolutely cannot permit Touka from doing a short hop B because the ensuing mixup is almost impossible to defend against (land teleport, Yuma comes in, Touka combos into Yuma then starts 5C shenanigans).

 

FWIW, most of Mojirice's comments seem to match with Morikuma's comments so I guess there is a consensus among JP with respect to the tiers.

 

And apparently, our tier list (or the one I posted, which is close enough) is close to what scrubs in JP think.

[sibladeko]

The scrub moniker is mainly because of where you put Touka, which I would never put below Multi Morgan or Arawn. :V

[ehuangsan]

Lol oh well. But it's also because of the Chizuru placement too, according to Mojirice.

[sibladeko]

I'm ok with Chizuru being 2nd but...below 2nd not so much, so yeah call me a scrub until more of them weigh in.

 

Edit: Also did mojirice seriously recommend 2C/5C 66 counter super? If against Sasara maybe, cause all the other options Touka has against her out of 66 actually sort of make her guess. But all the other characters will destroy this just my hitting their fastest normal.

http://www.hitbox.tv/video/137574 against 5C 66 counter super

http://www.hitbox.tv/video/137575 agasint 5C 66 623A

http://www.hitbox.tv/video/137578 against 5C 66 short hop jB

http://www.hitbox.tv/video/137875 agaisnt 5C 66 6412369AB super (added today)

 

As you can see, Sasara has answers to each situation, but they are all different answers, so she has to outguess Touka pretty hard.  However Tamaki can hit 5A for all of them and 5B to CH you out of all of them at once except for air super. Touka herself gets 5A on every single option, same with Karulau 5A, same with Konomi 5A, same with Chizuru 5A, etc. I can see how this moves Sasara:Touka match closer to 2:8 but I don't see how this would factor in raising Touka above the other characters.

[ehuangsan]

What about air super?

Short hop B is more of a gimmick once you get people afraid of counter super/air super.

[Aloci]

Chizuru is strong, but once you learn the match-up and player tendencies, then she's much easier to deal with.

 

I agree with the JP Tier list placement (Chizuru/Konomi player).

[nadakaineko]

Knowledge of the MU doesn't change any aspect of the character, it just makes you more able to adjust and play against that character's strengths. That much being said, Chizuru is probably the most well rounded character in the game; objectively, that hasn't changed. I can see Tamaki being ranked higher because of numerous factors (assist synergy, strong mix-up, high damage, ignorant supers), but she still suffers some issues from being stubby.

[Ssuusshhii]

We'd get a different opinion regarding Chizuru if Arcadia asked people who played characters other than Chizuru, Tamaki, Konomi, Touka, and Karulau.

[Luis]

One advice I can give to Hakuoro players when fighting Chizuru is if she's in low emotion and you have yellow health and three meter, use the splash art when she try to jump in. It's gonna guard break her and still deal a lot of damage. It saved me against this green connection Chizuru that had no lag. He was good but mostly getting bodied and needs more matchup experience. Although ehuangsan said you can impact guard the splash art. I wanna see a video of that.

[Kaori Manabe]

bullshit:

tamaki, chizuru, konomi

 

honest:

karalau

 

trash:

every1 else

[alucardx15]

So I can pretty much assume this game is dead online from the previous posts. Anyone fresh care to farm out some trophies? (I say farm cause ranked is dead. Player matches would be great afterwards, but also dead so far from what I've seen)

I just happened to get the game yesterday cause I remember seeing it at a tourney a while back, still debating on just taking it back though if the online is nonexistent

[ehuangsan]

Online is fairly dead. Your best bet is maybe 7-8PM EST.

I tend to run a lulz lab where I mostly dick around and try random things against all comers or mess around with training mode online around 10:30 PM PST (1:30 AM EST) or so on some weekdays. Normally I get about 1-2 people and then Mojirice sometimes shows up and kicks my ass for awhile.