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Shoto

Axl v. Baiken

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Instead of a placeholder:

:eng101: taken from the General Information thread:

Baiken

Shoto:5,0

This matchup has to be played differently by both players. Baikens big advantage is that Axl has no normal that is fast enough that it couldn’t get successfully guard canceld and Axl is not an character that has good standalone mixup. Therefore Axls 623P makes Baikens air tatami a risk for her and his Anti Air game is fully intact. Furthermore on long range the only counter that is a danger for Axl is the Ouren (“Superman”) guard cancel. Nevertheless if you cancel your normal into a 63214S you may escape it or if you feel lucky or your opponent spams it you can even cancel in one of your catches; and on long range you should not get punished for that if she does just block. Just stay away from 2H outside of punishment situation, it's just not a valid tool in this matchup. Try to interrupt her when she wants to close in on the ground or to make her jump where you don’t have to be afraid of her guard cancels and can make fully use of Axls anti air options.

Nevertheless this is a tough match for both players. Except developing certain one hit setups and relying more on throw setups the key to this matchup is to understand the way Bakien has to be played and judge when a player wants to guard cancel, i.e. waiting for you attack and in when he is either trying to move / attack and can be attacked / interrupted.

DW: 5.5

Until AC, a good Axl could zone Baiken out all day. This changed when Ouren was added... or did it? Ouren's achilles heel is that it can't connect in the corner. At all. This means that if you're in the corner, Ouren is no threat. On the contrary, in fact, it's a very long jump that leaves Baiken very punishable. Now you can zone Baiken to death again! Lows will cripple her ground approach with her guardrun (or anything else, really) and Axl has the best Anti-Air options in the game. Just stay out of Sakura range and you should be golden. If you feel ballsy, you can try to bait Sakura with c.S and cancel into S raeisageki for a meterless 300+ damage combo.

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Hm. Well, all I can recommend is keeping your strings short, making sure you can make her hesitate to counter (throw a 214P or 623P into a string where the baiken you play usually counters, if you can predict it). Try to put the baiken in as few situations where she gets to block as possible. As an added note: The superman counter doesn't hit at all in the corner, so if you're in the corner and she tries it, you basically get a free combo.

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I can just give you advise from my slash experiences.. She can counter all of your attacks, even the 5K, and since the range of her counters is quite good even your long range pokes are only save you do them near max distance (the range is about 2/3 of the distance a rensen travels). You can try to cancel any attack into one of your catches, but she can just delay her counter a few frames and hit you in the recovery of the catch. Furthermore you can try to cancel into 63214S, since that takes you away after the hit.. but that isn’t too save either since some of her counters will still hit you. Poking at her when not at full distance is quite risky.. but for her guard counter she needs to stand up (the motion is 412), so if the Baiken player has to bock low first, it takes him a few frames more to get his counter done. Furthermore if he is inputting the counter, Baiken will stand up again, making her vulnerable for another low attack. But there isn’t too much that Axl has to offer to utilize that weakness.. maybe try 3P, 2H.. that could be fast enough (and I think she generally shouldn’t be able to guard counter the first of any of Axls low hitting 2hit moves [2P and 2H], but I dunno if that is of any help in a match). btw.: Since Baiken actually wants to block, running up an throwing her should succeed far more often. My advise would be try to poke at her at a range her guard counters wont hit and try to make her jump. This are the only situations Axl is somehow superior. A tatami can be countered with 623P and the rest should be done with your anti air pokes. Try to get your damage from here. Every high low mixup is a gamble against Baiken, since if she blocks it she gets a free guard counter + follow up combo :(. So if you try to hit her with something make it damn tricky!! Maybe I come up with some ideas when I get to play a Baiken in AC.. Keeping the distance should be harder thanks to the vacuum effect that Axls long range pokes now have. I hate this matchup btw :P EDIT: ..for the superman counter.. I dunno but I remember seeing a match where the Axl Player just cancelled his attack into 623P (seemingly on reaction).. but this should be situation specific I think.

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i was thinking that maybe Bentengari S could be a good option against her superman, since it does have 1->4F Above Ankle Invincibility, so maybe that could be an answer, and if u miss, you can FRC bentengari to be "safe", but i havent tested it yet (im not at home right now), can someone test this?

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i was thinking that maybe Bentengari S could be a good option against her superman, since it does have 1->4F Above Ankle Invincibility, so maybe that could be an answer, and if u miss, you can FRC bentengari to be "safe", but i havent tested it yet (im not at home right now), can someone test this?

Unfortunately, that's risky and very hard to pull off. At the range that Baiken would be using the superman counter, I can't think of much that Axl can really cancel into 623S without an F/RC, and the superman hits you extremely quickly.

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Quick note on the Baiken matchup: If timed correctly, 2K, like Sol's sweep, the tail end of Jam's 5H, and many other moves in the game, will go under Sakura AND the superman counter. This is probably going to be more useful against Sakura, since the moves that it generally gatlings from are more the moves that are done up close (And if the baiken tries to superman counter when you're that close, it'll just miss.)

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I usually just do my thing without a worry in the world and then just toss out 214P on reaction if I see a counter coming. Doesn't always work, and you need to be careful of the 412K counter but other than that...yeah. Lots of tick throws/Rashousens on my end and I make her fear countering by countering her counters. The K counter isn't all that dangerous anyways. Also the advantage/disadvantages at the beginning of the thread for AC are pretty outdated. Still pretty accurate but those are very subject to change in the next few months :D

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Short block string into 63214S may also work. When she tries to counter, you hit her with that. Not sure though, maybe someone else can confirm it.

Doesn't work, as well as a cancel into a counter on reaction. Either you do one move and cancel into 63214S or a catch or you leave it. For the catch, if she delays her guard cancel

she will always be able to hit you in the recovery of your catch.

If you could counter her guard cancels on reaction this would be one of Axls easiest matchups..

btw.: Every of Axl moves can be guard cancelled without allowing you to block again. So two moves in a row, even that the recovery of the first got cancelled out, is more than she needs.. so no block strings against Baiken.

Also the advantage/disadvantages at the beginning of the thread for AC are pretty outdated. Still pretty accurate but those are very subject to change in the next few months :D

Think so^^. If you find out about newer numbers let us know^^.

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Doesn't work, as well as a cancel into a counter on reaction. Either you do one move and cancel into 63214S or a catch or you leave it. For the catch, if she delays her guard cancel

she will always be able to hit you in the recovery of your catch.

If you could counter her guard cancels on reaction this would be one of Axls easiest matchups..

btw.: Every of Axl moves can be guard cancelled without allowing you to block again. So two moves in a row, even that the recovery of the first got cancelled out, is more than she needs.. so no block strings against Baiken.

Think so^^. If you find out about newer numbers let us know^^.

Eh. You can cancel into counter on reaction the same way you can IB a burst on reaction: You just have to make sure you're doing a move with a very lenient window during which you can cancel into the counter. c.S is the best, in my opinion, but 5K can work too. Just keep block strings short, difficult to punish, easy to cancel, and heavy with high-low-throw-unblockable mixup. TK bomber good for baiting counters, since it's a good overhead with tiny recovery. Countering guard counters is extremely difficult against a good baiken, but you can do it enough to at least spook them slightly, giving you an edge.

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TK bomber good for baiting counters, since it's a good overhead with tiny recovery.

Yeah, but the recovery doesn't matter.. for Baiken all that matters is how much block stun it causes.. and TK Bomber causes a lot.. but I promise I will try to cancel into 623P on reaction again next time I causally fight a Baiken if you guys are all that confident that it works ^^.

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Yeah, but the recovery doesn't matter.. for Baiken all that matters is how much block stun it causes.. and TK Bomber causes a lot.. but I promise I will try to cancel into 623P on reaction again next time I causally fight a Baiken if you guys are all that confident that it works ^^.

Hey, Shoto's right. It turns out I was only getting this to work because the baiken wasn't acting fast enough, this isn't a safe option at all. :gonk:

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From my many encounters with Baiken's I have found a few ways to play against them, which varies on how said Baiken player fights. I would usually play the first round pretty slow and see how the Baiken plays (I have actually run into a few who play differently.) Prior to facing many Baiken's I found myself getting caught by the superman counter almost every time I through out a resen, and eat damage because of it. Nowadays I try to keep myself at maximum range and poke them to see if I can bait a superman counter, since it will whiff if you are far enough. When I am poking at midrange, where I would be able to eat a superman counter I would usually only throw a rensen if I knew it was going to hit, since I can cancel into a counter from my other pokes. I actually prefer to keep Baiken in the air, if not at long range. I am occasionally fearful when it comes to rushing a downed Baiken. When I am at close range resort to short blockstrings (3 hits maybe). I do throw out a long one soemtimes because they likely wouldn't expect it, but without ending it with rensen. And I promise, after atleast one or two reaction catches with your 214P (hell I even get em with the 214K on occasion.) most Baiken players will be a little hesitant to throw out their counters or use certain strings. In the end, this is a battle best played slowly and carefully for me atleast.

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Watch out with the trying to bait counters into tenhou, since that move sucks ass and it's a great way to get run-countered and thrown. If you must do that sort of thing, go for housou, but it's safer to just cancel into raei or better yet, do JCable blockstrings only, and be ready to jump immediately. Staying in the corner is the only place it's really that safe to zone too heavily, as Ouren won't hit, and trying to bait it into counters is fairly risky. I agree that ground-to-air is a preferable position to be in, but you have to get the Baiken jumping for that, which is not smart to do. A lot of anti-baiken should be reactionary, and throw setups are one way to approach more safely. Playing against a baiken expecting to scare her out of doing things is a good way to get raped against a good one who has some Axl experience.

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The only normal Axl has that has some use in rushes and is JCable is his S© (or am I missing something?). So how can you rush her down with JConly moves?

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The only normal Axl has that has some use in rushes and is JCable is his S© (or am I missing something?). So how can you rush her down with JConly moves?

Exactly. Run up, c.S, or maybe 6P-->c.S.

I'm not a big believer in real blockstrings against Baiken.

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I've got problems with Baiken's okizeme. Most of them because she uses a meaty air tatami and then... pressures very badly ! Anyway I wanted to know if instant blocking the tatami on wake-up is useful ? Does it give you any momentum that could actually be of any help (for a 623+S or a random overdrive for example) ? Or should I just wait for a better opportunity ?

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If anything, housou the tatami, but I'd recommend just IBing and waiting. Baiken isn't that hard to block, the worst thing she has is TK Youzansen and tick throws, both of which are risky for her to try. Random overdrive = never a good idea.

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Housou a tatmi on wake-up... that's quite impossible ! A TK Youzansen can't be comboed if not RC right ? Even on counter hit ? Should I poke out from tick throws with 2+K ? Knowing she can 63214+K for a catch... ?

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Housou a tatmi on wake-up... that's quite impossible !

Right, that's why I say "if anything." Basically, trying housou is assuming the baiken will fuck up their meaty by one frame or more. But DPing is even less likely to work.

A TK Youzansen can't be comboed if not RC right ? Even on counter hit ?

I dunno about counterhit, but she can't combo from it if not RC'd from a normal hit. Meanwhile, if you IB it, you get a free punish if she doesn't RC.

Should I poke out from tick throws with 2+K ? Knowing she can 63214+K for a catch... ?

Eh, it's worth a try. But for real tick throws it'll just be too fast. But if she tries for command run, go for either that or 3P (Depending on how much stun you're in.)

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Does a 3+P grant me a counter hit on command run ? Well I'm most likely not going to use that for 2 reasons : 1) Command run is too fast for me to change from guard (4) to attack (6) 2) If I miss I get a really nice 75% life combo for free, if it's not a SLASH... So I think I'll keep on doing what I used to do : 1 frame jump escape whenever it's possible ^^

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Does a 3+P grant me a counter hit on command run ?

Well I'm most likely not going to use that for 2 reasons :

1) Command run is too fast for me to change from guard (4) to attack (6)

2) If I miss I get a really nice 75% life combo for free, if it's not a SLASH...

So I think I'll keep on doing what I used to do : 1 frame jump escape whenever it's possible ^^

Eh, being in the air isn't always the smartest thing, especially if you don't have the meter for it. Are you seriously afraid of letting go of block?

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Definitively yes ! I can't stand pressure at all ! Especially Baiken's. I don't know how to block correctly, as I always end up taking a dust or a throw. Can't find the timing to counter correctly neither. Honestly when pressured, I lose about 50% of common sense and easiness. Any idea on how I should improve in that field ?

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Well, it's basically just experience, but you've got to go into it with the right mindset. Learn some strings with other characters, even just by watching, get a sense of what's SCable, JCable, gatlings they have, and know what you may have to block at any given moment. Also probably good to figure out some tick throw setups as well. Then start working on FDing and IBing and chicken blocking. I can give character specifics from what I know, but there's no substitute for experience. Basically, you want to FD when you think you can force enough pushback that the added stun won't be able to compensate for how long the other character has to spend getting in. IBing is more for if you think you can throw something out if you get a few frames less stun in any given string (Since Axl's reversals tend to suck, this is usually going to be a throw, a jump, or maybe a 5/2K or a housou, but not always). 1FJ is a good thing to use, but you have to know when it's applicable, as it's not just a magical solution for everything. I'd say use it when a situation is too ambiguous, or would be unblockable on the ground, and then ONLY if you have the meter to at least FD your way to the ground. Last thing to figure out is when you can just plain beat shit. This is especially possible if the opponent tries to get in from the air or from far away. Axl's best pokes are either far-reaching lows (3P, 2P, 2H) or anti-air, so learn to recognize situations where you can get momentum back. Usually, Baiken can only IAD safely on oki in this matchup, and while she can trip you up occasionally, you should usually be able to answer with a 5P or 2S. Smart baikens will try to airdash in different places to get a tatami mat in, but it's still to your advantage to try to stuff her dash. But even on the ground, if you can force Baiken to come to you, you've got a pretty clear set of ways to fuck her up, with SCable options that hit from far away and low (Mainly 2P). But what it sounds like your problem is is that you get nervous about defense and won't try anything risky to get out of pressure, which is basically an instant loss, since Axl doesn't exactly have risk-free defensive options besides blocking. Frankly, if you're afraid of Baiken's pressure, a good Eddie, I-No, Dizzy, Jam, Sol, Chipp, or especially Millia will DESTROY you.

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