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[LastStarSaviour]

Fighting games aren't chess, they're poker.

[Klein]

This is why I'm so confused over high level competition in fighters. . . Yomi is this intangible, prevalent force and sometimes I'm unsure if it's even legit or not. I mean, it is legit when you see it in action. But how the hell do you cultivate a skill that seems to be born from instinct? Unless you believe in the more intangible, spiritual aspect of life and meditate to improve latent empathic abilities, (which I am looking into, as crazy as that might sound. I can't recommend meditation enough. Regardless of one's personal beliefs, it does have tangible effects.) it seems the capacity to develop yomi is something you have to be born with.

I believe yomi is something you can learn. Play against someone, or a group of people long enough, and you WILL learn their habits, even if you don't realize it. Example: using Hakumen's counters when not reacting to an overhead. Any time you do that, it's yomi, and over time you'll notice when people want to swing in a situation, and use it. That's yomi that you will learn.

Also, after a long walk, I've reached understanding on Star's position. He's really Fem!Star, and her OTP is RagnaxNoel, which she wants to ship in every game. (If anyone doesn't get this, I apologize and hope it's funny to those who do.)

[mAc Chaos]

Yomi is just being able to predict the opponent's move. You can do that in plenty of games.

[Klein]

Yomi is just being able to predict the opponent's move. You can do that in plenty of games.

^

I developed mine in Magic: The Gathering, and Warcraft 3 lol.

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

I think you guys are misunderstanding and simplifying my point. There's a difference between what I consider yomi (the ability to read people intuitively, especially in an abrupt, 2/3 tournament setting) and reading people based on getting to know them through playing them. The first is an instinctive skill where, as Zomb said, you just know what's going to happen. The second is pattern recognition, a basic cognitive function deeply ingrained in our subconscious.

I'm not saying people are incapable of developing their yomi. I'm just saying that I believe that unless there's something to the concept of empathic intuition, it's impossible to specifically train your yomi past your innate potential. To people who look at fighters from a purely intellectual standpoint, this makes competition seem more like gambling than an actual contest of skill.

Because of this, I can kinda see where Star is coming from. If one of the primary skills necessary for high level play isn't something you can train beyond your basic potential, what do you do with that competitive drive? Putting in lab work won't make you any better, and practicing with people will only let you notice their particular flaws and habits. It won't help you intuitively understand how people are going to react.

[LastStarSaviour]

I think you guys are misunderstanding and simplifying my point. There's a difference between what I consider yomi (the ability to read people intuitively, especially in an abrupt, 2/3 tournament setting) and reading people based on getting to know them through playing them. The first is an instinctive skill where, as Zomb said, you just know what's going to happen. The second is pattern recognition, a basic cognitive function deeply ingrained in our subconscious.

I'm not saying people are incapable of developing their yomi. I'm just saying that I believe that unless there's something to the concept of empathic intuition, it's impossible to specifically train your yomi past your innate potential. To people who look at fighters from a purely intellectual standpoint, this makes competition seem more like gambling than an actual contest of skill. Because of this, I can kinda see where Star is coming from. If one of the primary skills necessary for high level play isn't something you can train beyond your basic potential, what do you do with that competitive drive? Sitting in the lab won't make you any better, and practicing with people will only let you notice their particular flaws. It won't help you intuitively understand how people are going to react.

^This

Finally someone gets it.

[Seiki]

If you want to be technical (and sometimes, there are things you just don't want to be technical about), yomi is just a read. A read is just a guess. Now this guess becomes better the more information you put into it (ie. picking up on opponent's habits, putting them in situations where the options are limited, reacting to certain audio/visual cues), but there is some probability that you guess WRONG. I honestly don't think anybody is incapable of yomi, just some people pick up on the factors that increase their chances faster than others.

I agree with this.

@Volpe: Playing against other people doesn't only help you identify their particular flaws. When you are trying to read the opponent the more you do it the more you are refining the ability to pick up on people's patterns in general. It's not case-specific to each individual since there is a general mechanic in play mentally that gives you the ability to recognize patterns. It's this general mechanic that is constantly being honed and refined when it is being put to use and thus increases your chances at identifying any type of person's patterns.

It's just silly to call it a gamble when you have people consistently placing top 4 in tournaments and consistently beating other people. Daygo (not his fraudulent twin brother Daigo) is a great example of this. He has practiced and displayed the ability to condition and read the opponent so well it's apparent visually in his matches. So often you will see he starts off losing and then all of a sudden becomes heavily dominant. He does this in a 2/3 setting and with American players he never plays against. The reason why he is able to be consistent in this environment is because he has trained his mind to be able to condition and find the opponent's patterns in the given amount of time.

There is no "basic potential" to being able to read an opponent. Since there is no absolute certainty of making the right or wrong read you can't measure it and set a true limit.

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

@Volpe: Playing against other people doesn't only help you identify their particular flaws. When you are trying to read the opponent the more you do it the more you are refining the ability to pick up on people's patterns in general. It's not case-specific to each individual since there is a general mechanic in play mentally that gives you the ability to recognize patterns. It's this general mechanic that is constantly being honed and refined when it is being put to use and thus increases your chances at identifying any type of person's patterns.

This doesn't preclude the idea of potential. You can develop your yomi through playing matches, but only to the limit of your capabilities. In essence I agree with this to an extent, I just should have worded my post better.

It's just silly to call it a gamble when you have people consistently placing top 4 in tournaments and consistently beating other people. Daygo (not his fraudulent twing brother Daigo) is a great example of this. He has practiced and displayed the ability to condition and read the opponent so well it's apparent visually in his matches. So often you will see he starts off losing and then all of a sudden becomes heavily dominant. He does this in a 2/3 setting and with American players he never plays against. The reason why he is able to be consistent in this environment is because he has trained his mind to be able to condition and find the opponent's patterns in the given amount of time.

I'm not saying it actually is gambling; only that it seems like gambling when you look at a game on paper. The example you provided could still be applicable to my theory that everyone has a certain potential when it comes to developing their yomi. It can be argued that the players who place consistently have the most room for growth in their ability to read their opponents.

There is no "basic potential" to being able to read an opponent. Since there is no absolute certainty of making the right or wrong read you can't measure it and set a true limit.

If this were true, then people would be able to reach high level play simply by playing as much as possible. Star would've been bodying everybody back in BB simply because of how much he played the game. The supposed lack of certainty also implies that you can't consistently read people, which would only help prove that fighting is akin to gambling. This argument is countered by your earlier statement; people skilled in yomi can consistently read their opponents with certainty to an extent.

edit: redundance

[ZomB]

Honestly? Some people have a talent for it. But it is a learned skill as well. I've been playing fighting games for about 10 years off and on to varying degrees(very casually at first) and I only really started "getting it" a few years ago...

[mAc Chaos]

I think you guys are misunderstanding and simplifying my point. There's a difference between what I consider yomi (the ability to read people intuitively, especially in an abrupt, 2/3 tournament setting) and reading people based on getting to know them through playing them. The first is an instinctive skill where, as Zomb said, you just know what's going to happen. The second is pattern recognition, a basic cognitive function deeply ingrained in our subconscious.

I'm not saying people are incapable of developing their yomi. I'm just saying that I believe that unless there's something to the concept of empathic intuition, it's impossible to specifically train your yomi past your innate potential. To people who look at fighters from a purely intellectual standpoint, this makes competition seem more like gambling than an actual contest of skill.

Because of this, I can kinda see where Star is coming from. If one of the primary skills necessary for high level play isn't something you can train beyond your basic potential, what do you do with that competitive drive? Putting in lab work won't make you any better, and practicing with people will only let you notice their particular flaws and habits. It won't help you intuitively understand how people are going to react.

You could say this about literally any competitive field though. There's always going to be someone who has a gift that other people don't.

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

You could say this about literally any competitive field though. There's always going to be someone who has a gift that other people don't.

In other games experience can more easily compete with talent, since success is determined more on trainable skills.

Honestly? Some people have a talent for it. But it is a learned skill as well. I've been playing fighting games for about 10 years off and on to varying degrees(very casually at first) and I only really started "getting it" a few years ago...

This is why I'm not certain. I know I talk like it's an ironclad fact that you can't train yomi, but it's more something that I tentatively believe. It's something I've been trying to work around for awhile, because I feel like my decision making skills are rather weak. I've noticed that I'm able to read people, but I'm more of the gambling variant. I don't want to guess anymore, I want to know.

[Seiki]

This doesn't preclude the idea of potential. You can develop your yomi to an extent through playing matches, but only to the limit of your capabilities. In essence I agree with this to an extent, I just should have worded my post better.

I'm not saying it actually is gambling; only that it seems like gambling when you look at a game on paper. The example you provided could still be applicable to my theory that everyone has a certain potential when it comes to developing their yomi. It can be argued that the players who place consistently have the most room for growth in their ability to read their opponents.

If this were true, then people would be able to reach high level play simply by playing as much as possible. Star would've been bodying everybody back in BB simply because of how much he played the game. The supposed lack of certainty also implies that you can't consistently read people, which would only help prove that fighting is akin to gambling. This argument is countered by your earlier statement; people skilled in yomi can consistently read their opponents with certainty to an extent.

Idk how to separate quotes so I'll just respond to them like this:

your first counter point:

Why even make a distinction that it "doesn't preclude the idea of potential"? That wasn't my intention with that part of the statement. It was a response to the point you made earlier where you said, "practicing with people will only let you notice their particular flaws. It won't help you intuitively understand how people are going to react." I even made it clear in my post where I specifically said "When you are trying to read the opponent the more you do it the more you are refining the ability to pick up on people's patterns in general. It's not case-specific to each individual" directly addressing said point you made.

your second counter point:

You said in your earlier post "from a purely intellectual standpoint, this makes competition seem more like gambling than an actual contest of skill." How do you rationalize that if you look at competition from an intellectual standpoint that means "on paper"? If you wanted to say you were talking about competition in the context of being "on paper" then just say it. "intellectual standpoint" just sounds like a bunch of fluffed up words that hold no weight when you used it like that. And again the part of my post that you are trying to counter here isn't talking about potential. It's supporting the statement you responded to in your first counter point.

Even if you looked at competition on paper, you would have to take into account tournament results as significant data to be studied. Judging by consistent placement of top players how can you even call it a gamble when you see the same names make top 4 in tournaments with different players, different number of entrants, different times of the year, etc.

Your Third counter point:

"If this were true, then people would be able to reach high level play simply by playing as much as possible. Star would've been bodying everybody back in BB simply because of how much he played the game."

How did you get this out of what I said? All I was saying is that even if a person has an 80% chance of being right over another in a situation the other person has a 20% chance of also being right. The person who has an 80% chance of being right can be consistent simply because he has 4x the chance of making the right decision in every situation relative to the other person. I assure you if a die had 5 sides labeled 1 and the 6th side was labeled 2 you would get more 1's in a row than 2. But it's not certain because there is that 1 in 6 chance of the die being a 2 instead of 1. So you can be consistent without being certain.

To say that being able to read has a set potential means that is limited which means that it is finite. Finite numbers are certain. 1 is 1, 2 will always be 2, etc. We agree that we can never be certain in our reads in any situation and if we aren't certain then how can we say we have a limit? Isn't stating that having a limit means we are certain about our ability to read? so how do you justify your position?

[LastStarSaviour]

So fighting games are indeed gambling? Time to play poker everyone!

[Seiki]

It's gambling in the sense that it's not certain, but it's not gambling in the sense that you can't be consistent...

[mAc Chaos]

So fighting games are indeed gambling? Time to play poker everyone!

It's not really gambling so much as there not being any one answer 100% of the time. Otherwise there wouldn't really be a game. Everything comes down to probability. There is no such thing as a safe option, just what is most likely to be safe in a given situation. You want to identify and commit to those options, but sometimes you might want to go out on a limb and take a bigger risk if you have a feeling it will work. The best players can juggle all of those situations and pick the right one at the right time in the heat of a match, while pressuring the opponent to pick wrong.

So ultimately it comes down to judgement, which is why you see the same players placing high consistently. And of course, developing the skills to make sure you can execute that judgement.

[ZomB]

Fighting games are about playing weighted odds(when a matchup is known), reading your opponent's pattern, and reacting to various events on the screen -- all in real time.

[ZomB]

The most important skill that a lot of mid-level players lack is what I call "deliberation" -- with a good player, practically everything is done for a reason. Most movements, attacks, blockstrings etc. Even if that intention is just to see how your opponent might react.

There's a very different sort of feeling between getting hit by a move that was well spaced, and getting hit by a move because the opponent very intentionally put it where you would be jumping. In a sense, that is yomi. Simply pushing your opponent to play the game you want to play. If your opponent isn't aware of this, sometimes it can look like perfect reads, but really they're just being bullied.

[Milln]

Sometimes you just ~know~

I agree with this. It's said well.

Honestly? Some people have a talent for it. But it is a learned skill as well. I've been playing fighting games for about 10 years off and on to varying degrees(very casually at first) and I only really started "getting it" a few years ago...

Ditto. I've always been terrible at fighting games, playing them for... heck, now that I actually think about it, maybe the same amount of time, a couple years less. It's taken me that long to actually understand "Oh, so this is how it really is..." and get to where I am today. Still not amazing, but striving.

[Alphakami]

I think you missed the part where Millia was in that sentence tad...

I didn't, I just took it out so it could be my new sig. If that's not kosher, I'll change it. It really made me laugh before I thought about whether I agreed or stood against. I just laughed at anything in GG being called brain-dead or auto-pilot. If you repeat any pattern in that game, I can find a way to bust it and punish you, at least with Ky. Most all of it can can punish with Instant Block and 2P.

The clearest example I can give is Millia doing sweep>roll>throw disk>Do what I want

It's a guessing game at that point. Your opponent wakes up, and has to guess between whether i'm going to do an overhead, instant-overhead, or a low. All which are very hard to react to to the point where you're guessing. There is no conditioning. You're telling your opponent four things: They're going to wake up and block (this is fine), they're going to guess (problem), if you don't guess correctly, you're getting hit into damage with more mix-up on the way (problem), and there's little consequence to me doing these mix-ups (problem)

Yes, I know this is just basic Millia, but it's still very, VERY strong basic Millia.

Edit: Also with 5) I should have worded it better. It shouldn't be overly-advantageous.

It's not overly-advantageous. The first example (Sweep>Roll>Throw Disk) is already easily stopped by IB 5P and that just hits her out of the roll. Assuming you stay in pressure, unless it's a Force Break Disk, then I'm going get free Counter Hit most anything if that string is used in even a slightly flagrantly.

There are also some advanced guarding tricks that nullifies a large portion of her low, instant overhead, overhead on wake-up shit. It totally stops basic wakeup if FB Blue Disk isn't on you, and covers most all else even when it is. Long story short, unless meter is involved, she get's nothing in terms of continued mix-up that is safe. The best stuff is close to safe, but most of the 'basic' shit is easily beatable.

If the game isn't for you, that's fine, but to relegate it to brain dead is ignorant. There is nothing in that game that there isn't a way to beat. Even the unblockables and have to be timed to a single frame to make them be single frame unblocks, and most players miss it by a least a frame or two, which opens up multiple and much more possible ways to escape.

The most important skill that a lot of mid-level players lack is what I call "deliberation" -- with a good player, practically everything is done for a reason. Most movements, attacks, blockstrings etc. Even if that intention is just to see how your opponent might react.

There's a very different sort of feeling between getting hit by a move that was well spaced, and getting hit by a move because the opponent very intentionally put it where you would be jumping. In a sense, that is yomi. Simply pushing your opponent to play the game you want to play. If your opponent isn't aware of this, sometimes it can look like perfect reads, but really they're just being bullied.

<3 the fuck out of this.

[Kyle]

When did GG become braindead?

fuckin lol

[Astaroth136]

Being successful in fighting games is much like being successful in real life - it hinges on location, background, determination, education/training, and a bit of luck. None of us are particularly successful (in the sense that we're winning majors) in fighters because we don't have the resources for it. We live in a state where we are all scattered, making it harder for fight nights. Even when one is planned, life, school, and/or jobs kick us in the nads.

Sitting in training mode for hours gets you nowhere, and I'll never understand why people thinks it will. You need to constantly play good opponents to train reactions and learn opponent's mixups. Out of all of those Marvel, SC5, or BB tournaments I've won, I spent maybe 15% of my time in training mode. I feel like it's much better to learn matchups and hone my ability to adapt on the fly, rather than learn a ton of resets I'll never remember mid-match.

Yomi is just a part of everything. Yomi's in business. Yomi's in fighters. Yomi's in sports. I don't think it's something you can purposefully train to improve, but instead, it's something that automatically improves as you get better at whatever you're doing. And yes, some people are just better at it than others.

But yeah, that's my two cents on success in games.

[mAc Chaos]

> in fighters because we don't have the resources for it.

I do. I'm just too lazy. :P Or rather, I don't see the point. I am fine with being a netplay warlord. I mean, it's just a game in the end.

[Astaroth136]

"We" as in "us TN players." lol

[mAc Chaos]

Well, if you mean you can't truly reach the very top of the game without traveling to tournaments and stuff, I'd agree. But otherwise you can get pretty good anyway.

[Papstr]

Yomi is just a part of everything. Yomi's in business. Yomi's in fighters. Yomi's in sports. I don't think it's something you can purposefully train to improve, but instead, it's something that automatically improves as you get better at whatever you're doing. And yes, some people are just better at it than others.

But yeah, that's my two cents on success in games.

I once Yomi'd that someone would Flash when I was playing League. They totally did. But they got away anyway because Flash.