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Milln

Middle Tennessee Needs Gaming! Monthly Versus Tourneys - Antioch, TN

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I once Yomi'd that someone would DP when I was playing *insert anime fighting game here*. They totally did. But they got away anyway because Rapid Cancel equivalent.

Fix'd

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Idk how to separate quotes so I'll just respond to them like this:

I just go OCD and copy/paste the quote codes to break it up into segments.

your first counter point:

Why even make a distinction that it "doesn't preclude the idea of potential"? That wasn't my intention with that part of the statement. It was a response to the point you made earlier where you said, "practicing with people will only let you notice their particular flaws. It won't help you intuitively understand how people are going to react." I even made it clear in my post where I specifically said "When you are trying to read the opponent the more you do it the more you are refining the ability to pick up on people's patterns in general. It's not case-specific to each individual" directly addressing said point you made.

Because I figured you were stating that it was a purely trainable trait, regardless of potential. I shouldn't have been arguing based on an opinionated point, but I guess I was trying to push the discussion forward. I'll simply reiterate that I agree that you can develop yomi through practicing against players. I concede that I was wrong in saying that you can ONLY pick up peoples bad habits when sparring, but I believe that what you can train in terms of intuition only extends as far as your latent proficiency in picking up mind games.

your second counter point:

You said in your earlier post "from a purely intellectual standpoint, this makes competition seem more like gambling than an actual contest of skill." How do you rationalize that if you look at competition from an intellectual standpoint that means "on paper"? If you wanted to say you were talking about competition in the context of being "on paper" then just say it. "intellectual standpoint" just sounds like a bunch of fluffed up words that hold no weight when you used it like that. And again the part of my post that you are trying to counter here isn't talking about potential. It's supporting the statement you responded to in your first counter point.

This was just a poor choice of words in an attempt to rephrase a statement I'd already made before, so I'm not sure why you decided to deconstruct it instead of the actual point. I figured my intent was clarified when I changed it to "on paper", or when I originally made the statement as "from a technical standpoint".

Even if you looked at competition on paper, you would have to take into account tournament results as significant data to be studied. Judging by consistent placement of top players how can you even call it a gamble when you see the same names make top 4 in tournaments with different players, different number of entrants, different times of the year, etc.

You're still missing the point, but that's my fault. I said on paper/from a technical/intellectual standpoint, that it (and by 'it' I meant 50/50 mix up situations, not competition in general) seems like a gamble. I say this because I view yomi as a concept/skill somewhat separate from logical thought, so when you're looking at something from a perspective of technical skill, you don't really include intuition as a factor. My entire point was that I believe it's not possible to train yomi beyond your innate aptitude for learning it. You've been arguing against an opinion, which, again, I probably should've made clearer.

Your Third counter point:

"If this were true, then people would be able to reach high level play simply by playing as much as possible. Star would've been bodying everybody back in BB simply because of how much he played the game."

How did you get this out of what I said? All I was saying is that even if a person has an 80% chance of being right over another in a situation the other person has a 20% chance of also being right. The person who has an 80% chance of being right can be consistent simply because he has 4x the chance of making the right decision in every situation relative to the other person. I assure you if a die had 5 sides labeled 1 and the 6th side was labeled 2 you would get more 1's in a row than 2. But it's not certain because there is that 1 in 6 chance of the die being a 2 instead of 1. So you can be consistent without being certain.

I get that because of the "no basic potential" part. If everybody's yomi developed solely as a natural result of experience without talent being a factor, training for excellent reads would be a simple matter of grinding your way to the top.

To say that being able to read has a set potential means that is limited which means that it is finite. Finite numbers are certain. 1 is 1, 2 will always be 2, etc. We agree that we can never be certain in our reads in any situation and if we aren't certain then how can we say we have a limit? Isn't stating that having a limit means we are certain about our ability to read? so how do you justify your position?

You're drawing too many mathematical comparisons. I am saying it's finite, but to assume you can quantify skill because it's limited is folly. The fact that we aren't certain in our reads IS our limit. There are people who can be certain in their reads and they're rewarded for this - these are the players who I figure have the potential to actually train their yomi to a high level. I assume by "certain" you mean having a 100% success rate, but that's just ludicrous when you're trying to measure player skill. Nothing is 100% certain, so trying to use that to prove a point is useless. The mid level players like us are the ones stuck guessing in total uncertainty, which is my entire point - no matter how much we get better at guessing, unless we discover some method for legitimately grinding a vague skill like yomi, at best we're still going to be guessing.

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double postan

Sitting in training mode for hours gets you nowhere, and I'll never understand why people thinks it will.

You can maximize your execution, develop frame traps, tech traps, discover holes in your blockstrings, and optimize your combos. I don't see how this gets you nowhere if you can actually apply what you learn in a match.

The most important skill that a lot of mid-level players lack is what I call "deliberation" -- with a good player, practically everything is done for a reason. Most movements, attacks, blockstrings etc. Even if that intention is just to see how your opponent might react.

There's a very different sort of feeling between getting hit by a move that was well spaced, and getting hit by a move because the opponent very intentionally put it where you would be jumping. In a sense, that is yomi. Simply pushing your opponent to play the game you want to play. If your opponent isn't aware of this, sometimes it can look like perfect reads, but really they're just being bullied.

I actually just discovered "deliberation" today, coincidentally. Not that I can do it myself, but fighting Spacebace I noticed that most everything he did had a purpose because he understood what I was capable of/how I reacted to certain situations, and because of this I could actually condition him (if I had the presence of mind to, which I didn't.) It's gonna take awhile to get used to, but I feel like I leveled up today.

As for expanding on yomi, I definitely agree with that. When I used the 50/50 example in discussing my perception of yomi, I only meant that it was one of the more obvious facets of it. I consider it a really vague skill for that reason, because so many different little tricks and instincts fit under that word.

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The mid level players like us are the ones stuck guessing in total uncertainty, which is my entire point - no matter how much we get better at guessing, unless we discover some method for legitimately grinding a vague skill like yomi, at best we're still going to be guessing.

I strongly disagree with this. I believe any level of player can learn any fundamental by thinking about it, so next time you're fighting anyone in any setting, don't think about how you're gonna win. First think about what they're doing, and then about how you can pre-reaction punish them for it. This could mean anything like cr. Roundhouse spammers in SF, or someone DPing on wakeup in the corner. Just THINK about it as you play, don't go all offense, or try to shut them down with a bunch of oki n' shit. Just play some casuals to learn yomi, and just yomi, and report your findings.

You can maximize your execution, develop frame traps, tech traps, discover holes in your blockstrings, and optimize your combos. I don't see how this gets you nowhere if you can actually apply what you learn in a match.

Is another thing I disagree with, to a degree. Training mode is really nice for playing around with a setup, or a combo, but actual matches are the way to win if you can get them. Frame, tech traps, and holes can be found through a quick glance at frame data without a ton of time in training mode, and holes can often be found by simply playing the game. Just my two cents.

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When did GG become braindead?

fuckin lol

I don't recall ever saying the entire game was brain-dead. I do think it's imbalanced as fuck and that a lot of retarded bull shit happens in that game that just shouldn't happen period, but I don't necesarily think that it needs to be bashed every time I notice it. I do dislike however, when I bring up the topic of something I feel is wrong with the game and I get responses like "lol, you gave me brain cancer" like dick-riding fanboys. I'm all for defending your game, but you don't have to discredit a player for feeling a certain way. Whoops, better get off this track before someone tries to say i'm seeking "victimization" or some other stupid crap, lol. I simply felt that Millia's mix-up or rather high/low, cross-up, and other types of mix-ups that force your opponent to guess in general were brain-dead forms of opening up your opponent and I think this was honestly missed throughout the entire discussion as this seems to typically happen with any conversation brought up to this thread, but whatever.

As for why I feel the way I do about the mix-ups, this is coming from someone who likes to force their opponent to block until they eventually feel that they need to press a button, get baited and punished for their troubles. Which is essentially why I call certain situations in Gear what I do. I'm well aware the particular amount of skill involved in learning the actual mix-up and its execution. I just hate the fact that there are some characters who heavily rely on it to open someone up. It's fun every once in a while, but over time, just making your opponent guess constantly gets repetitive for me.

In the matches I played against Volpe and a few others, there were plenty of times I could've just killed them with Mitsuru's Instant overhead j.B rapid j.B and combo them for the kill. However, i'd rather just frame trap them until they fuck up and die. That's more entertaining to me no matter what.

@Tad: Thank you for an actual response. Out of all of the "lol, you're retarded" stuff i've heard today that was the only thing I could walk away with from a Gear player and actually feel like I didn't waste my time posting. Kudos to people actually giving me content. Also, i'm not calling gear brain-dead, though I am calling it imbalanced and bull shit as fuck. But like you said, for every legit thing in Gear, there's something you can find just as retarded beside it. Simply put, if i'd rather spend my time not dealing with the bs then i'm better off not playing the game like you said. There are plenty of other fighters out there that don't force the kind of situations that Gear does and they're all fun. I'm just coming to terms with the fact that i'm not going to be fully supporting as many anime fighters as I would like due to a lot of things clashing with my ideals and views of fundamentals.

Also, I have no problems with sigs, they remind me of funny shit. I need to quote that "Fighting games aren't chess, they're poker" thing.

Holy fuck, so much other random shit/walls of text. As for the training and honing yourself discussion, I don't feel there's any concrete form of training that will make you a better player. You do whatever works for you as long as it's a system you're comfortable with. For me, I learned basic BnBs with Mitsuru and then I hit netplay and played over like 4-5k matches. That outside of watching vids on different players and analyzing those players and lab-work has gotten me to where I feel is a decent place. I don't think i'm where I should be at by now, but there's so many match-ups i'm not exposed to regularly. Ultimately, do everything! don't just watch vids, don't just fight people, and don't just sit in training mode.

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Netplay is a good enough resource to become a strong player.

Very dependent on the game, but yes, it is a great resource. It was pretty much my only resource for SC5. Netplay in GG, KoF, or Marvel? Nah, it just doesn't work there.

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There's both the technical aspect to fighting games, and the yomi/matchup aspect. No matter how much time I put into playing Carl in BB, I'm not going to win with him until I develop mechanics and combos in training mode. Training mode won't win you games, but it'll give you the resources necessary to.

Once you have the resources you need to win, then you just need the know-how to play off your opponent. You don't need to spend all of your time in training mode sure, but optimizing your combos or practicing control for your character certainly won't hurt; and there is always -something- you can work on. Likewise, there are matchups in any game that working on will improve your success rate, as well as playstyles you have yet to experience to their fullest. Playing against as many people as possible (does not necessarily mean netplay, though considering how distant people are compared to the asian countries, it certainly is an important one) is in a sense, it's own form of training. It's a balance, and understanding your own personal balance is important for success.

In hindsight of writing this, I suppose it's a pretty obvious element, but I felt like it needed to be said.

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Very dependent on the game, but yes, it is a great resource. It was pretty much my only resource for SC5. Netplay in GG, KoF, or Marvel? Nah, it just doesn't work there.

This is true. I more meant for development as a player in general, rather than any specific game. It's of course important to approach your matches with a learning mindset as well and understand the difference between a "netplay tactic" and a real mixup, etc. Practice mode is a pretty useful tool for confirming some of this stuff.

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Star, I treat your opinion with little respect because you throw around strong terms like "unbalanced" and "braindead" without even understanding the core mechanics of the game, or thinking before you yell "BROKEN". Guilty Gear is NOT an especially imbalanced game, it's just hard. A fuckton of Millia's mixups are escapable as Tad said, or reactable as I said.

Not to mention, pressure without mixups is NOT a good mixup, it's just so boring and annoying, and a reason I really dislike dealing with Blazblue pressure.

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Someone pls bring Melty to the mtng tournament I love Melty

I would, but desktops are a bitch to lug out to tournaments :U

Also, to Star, if you get off on frame traps so much, why not just play HOS? That's what he is.

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Someone pls bring Melty to the mtng tournament I love Melty

SOMEONE COME PICK ME UP AND I'LL BRING MINE. I'm 30-40 minutes on the other side of Nasvhille, though, so that's kinda unreasonable. Especially since I'm lacking in the gas, grass, or ass department. Still, can't blame a nigga for asking. I just wanna play gamez. I feel like if I make it to this one, I'll finally be able to play Persona at my best.

I strongly disagree with this. I believe any level of player can learn any fundamental by thinking about it, so next time you're fighting anyone in any setting, don't think about how you're gonna win. First think about what they're doing, and then about how you can pre-reaction punish them for it. This could mean anything like cr. Roundhouse spammers in SF, or someone DPing on wakeup in the corner. Just THINK about it as you play, don't go all offense, or try to shut them down with a bunch of oki n' shit. Just play some casuals to learn yomi, and just yomi, and report your findings.

This is how I play my games already, and it's why I feel like I can't just learn it outright. Some days I've got my opponent's brain on lock, most of the time I don't.

Training mode is really nice for playing around with a setup, or a combo, but actual matches are the way to win if you can get them. Frame, tech traps, and holes can be found through a quick glance at frame data without a ton of time in training mode, and holes can often be found by simply playing the game. Just my two cents.

I've never used frame data. I tend to find gaps in other people's offense through trial and error during player matches, but I find that often people will respect things that have holes in them simply because they're unaware of those holes. I'd rather find out my pressure has holes in it in training mode the day before a tournament than in the middle of a match when my opponent blows me up. If I'd sat down in training mode to test out my moves before the first Persona tournament I wouldn't have discovered Liz's defensive options were balls by getting bodied by Jackie. I could've spent more effort avoiding less favorable situations from the start, and it just might have altered the outcome of the match. I think it's a matter of personal preference, but training mode is just more efficient for discovering specific things because it's in a controlled setting.

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If you want to talk about this in person Volpe I'd rather do it like that. Too much is being misunderstood or misrepresented in writing. We are just going round and round in circles.

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Star, I treat your opinion with little respect because you throw around strong terms like "unbalanced" and "braindead" without even understanding the core mechanics of the game, or thinking before you yell "BROKEN". Guilty Gear is NOT an especially imbalanced game, it's just hard. A fuckton of Millia's mixups are escapable as Tad said, or reactable as I said.

Not to mention, pressure without mixups is NOT a good mixup, it's just so boring and annoying, and a reason I really dislike dealing with Blazblue pressure.

You mean like how you guys treat UNiB or Melty or any other game I happen to like? Yeeeaaahhhh.....karma, it does exist

Also, Again, every time I see Millia do a mix-up, I see people respect it and get punished for trying to respect. Very few times have I seen people escape it. Knowing that there are ways to escape it doesn't change much in the fact that it's obnoxious the way the process works.

I can understand why you would find pressure without mix-ups annoying and i'm fine with that, but I prefer that over 50/50's. At least at the end of the day, I can walk away saying I beat someone because they didn't respect my shit and mashed rather than, they had to respect my shit and got killed.

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If you got knocked down you deserve that 50:50. Star I dunno how much Melty you've played but well executed sandoori is some serious business.

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If you got knocked down you deserve that 50:50. Star I dunno how much Melty you've played but well executed sandoori is some serious business.

Yeah, there are some seriously fucked up situations in Melty. I just respect it a lot due to the fact that most of the mix-up for the most part is pretty reactable and most of your pressure is frame trapping and using reverse beats to fuck with your opponent and it's not even that good to restart pressure.

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I don't really know enough GG to comment on Millia exactly, but I don't think GG mixups are any more or less bullshit than Melty/Persona/Marvel mixups. When performed well they aren't reactable, the main difference would be the frequency and risk/reward involved.

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Anime fighters in general, plus Marvel have pretty much paved the way for screwed up mix-ups honestly. There's not really anything in the anime fighting game market from what i've played that has mix-ups that are more fair and/or balanced than another. As i'm starting to play them more and more, i'm realizing that these situations are becoming practiced by developers more and more and these games are being designed to become less honest. So yeah, i'm going to have to deal, or just simply not playing anime fighters (but i'm too weaboo for that so yeah)

For me, it's not the risk/reward, costs, or frequency, ect....it's the principle of it all.

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You mean like how you guys treat UNiB or Melty or any other game I happen to like? Yeeeaaahhhh.....karma, it does exist

:| I don't think anyone other than Milln has had a serious problem with Melty, and I'm still gonna try UNiB because of Volpe. So lose the bullshit please.

I can understand why you would find pressure without mix-ups annoying and i'm fine with that, but I prefer that over 50/50's. At least at the end of the day, I can walk away saying I beat someone because they didn't respect my shit and mashed rather than, they had to respect my shit and got killed.

I really don't see why you want a mixup system without mixups. Without an unreactable aspect to make someone want to push a button, there's no reason to even go in and waste your time. At an above scrub level, it'd make the game nothing but neutral and blockstrings for meter. Which I'm sure sounds great for Mitsuru, but it sounds pretty crappy to me. Speaking as someone who lost to Snipe's Bang back in CS1 because of unreactable mixups and loving it.

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The only reason frame traps work is because your opponent is scared of a mixup(or bad/impatient), they're definitely necessary. I don't like to feel like a pressure string serves no purpose. A bunch of +f mids is great, but really without highs or lows, people shouldn't ever technically be getting hit :(

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I never said having high/low mix-ups and stuff were something I didn't want. I said, guessing games, as mix-up is not something I want. It seems the point was missed yet again. *Sigh*

Also, it's not just you Klein, every time I mention UNiB to any of you guys I get this "the game's garbage" response. So yeah, i'll drop the bull the moment you all do.

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