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Shoto

Axl v. Jam

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Instead of a placeholder:

:eng101: taken from the General Information thread:

Jam

Shoto: 5,0

Jam has to say goodbye to some of her toys in this matchup. Her Puffball FB is not only worthless in most situations but a real danger. If done at the right time / distance 63214S will go over it and you can counter them on reaction. If you keep out of the distance in which a normal fake Puffbal into throw will be efficient there is not even mixup you have to fear. All other puffball variation can be stopped through 2P or even 2H. Her instant Air dash is low enough for 5P to connect, and since it is fast and has lots of forward momentum chances are good that you can go right on with a combo. Her Uppercut whiffs if you do a 2K as reversal; as you can start nearly all of your pressure / mixup options this move is lost to her as a reversal. Apart from that even that she is quite fast thanks to her really bad range she has to get real close, what gives Axl a lot of time to react to her, and especially in anti air situations you are in reach for anti air attack way before she can connect an jump in and all of her delaying and crossup stuff often just gives you more time to aim; not to mention that your catches have no problem dealing with corssups. If she has grounded you her 6H is so damn slow that depending on how she times it you can even reversal her out of it on reaction.

The only thing that makes this matchup close to even for Jam is that she has incredibly good damage from random hits and you have to make unpleasant decision once your on the receiving end, as you have no chance to poke her out and she has good tick throw opportunities.

DW:4.5

While a lot of what Shoto says is true, I'd still say that this matchup is slightly in Jam's favor. Axl may have a lot of options against her IAD, but most of them are made risky by IAD Gekirin or TK Ryuujin. FB puffball loses its usefulness as a stand-alone move, but given the low stance of the slide and the invincibility of the move itself, it's still a decent way to punish a lot of Axl's mistakes from most ranges. IAD j.H will go over and counterhit 2H, 2P, Rensen, and, given a SJIAD, oftentimes 5P as well, which means that some AA has to be pre-emptive.

2H is definitely a good option if you see a slide coming, and 3P is a great way to prevent run-ins. This match is the only one where I'd use 5H a defensive poke, as it'll beat out a lot of slide variations, IADs, and TK Ryuujin when timed properly. On the offensive, Rashousen becomes much more risky, but by no means does that mean that it's not viable. Besides airthrowing (which is always a danger), Jam doesn't have a lot of answers for Raeisageki (S) with running momentum from across the screen. Also: While not many Jams use this, a 236S dash into Choujin (FRC) is very weird for Axl to deal with, particularly if he tried to beat the dash with 2H

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Millia is and always has been Axl's worst match pretty much. Jam is pretty bad too. Hum, I don't see Baiken as a bad matchup though I've never had problems with her before. SHE has to be careful playing Axl because throwing out careless counters will wind up with HER being countered. There's also the fact that Axl's improved long range makes her need to be a lot more cautious when jumping from far away. You can pretty easily harrass her at long range and then just be ready to counter the superman. And again, for 25% tension Axl does TONS of damage to her and knocks down. The main reason Axl is bad against Jam is that she is excellent at getting past his long range game and she ruins his shit straight out once she's on him. Millia is Axl's worst nightmare because like Josh said, the pin kills everything Axl has. It comes out amazingly fast and stuffs like all of his long range. Just to shorten things, sorry if it's vague but: Millia kills Axl at long range Millia DESTROYS THE SHIT out of Axl up close, no contest Once Millia gets her mixups rolling it's next to impossible for Axl to really escape. Most all of her pressure is reversal safe and she can screw you for jumping or backdashing, all while mixing you up. Millia can FB Disc out of a LOT of Axl's pressure, and even if you wind up CHing her out of it she will probably wind up comboing you into knockdown. At the very best you block her FB disc and get forced into her pressure. I'm unsure if the projectile counter wins against the Disc since it hits twice, I doubt it. Millia does good damage vs. Axl and knocks back down off of all of her random mixups. The only real advantage for Axl in the matchup is that he does tons of damage to her for 25% tension, and will prolly knock her down. Then if he manages to mix her up again, then he wins the round. Still a horrid horrid match. The match is better in some ways in AC than it was in Slash or #R(Axl is a better character in AC), but it's worse in some ways also(Millia is better defensively making Axl's hope of actually starting an offense on her much harder whereas if he actually got lucky and knocked her down in #R/Slash he could get something going pretty easy and since Rensen added Guard Balance he could get her to flashing guage VERY fast.)

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Yeah. I'm gradually learning to crack baiken with weird tickthrows and Rashousen setups, but it's hard shit. Probably one of Axl's worst matchups (up there with Venom and Jam, but for different reasons), and definitely the weirdest.

I absolutely disagree on that on and I guess all the Jam players I have met do too. Explain yourself^^.

Jam has to say goodbye to some of her most loved toys in this matchup. Her Puffball FB is not only worthless but a real danger as 63214S will go over it and as you can counter them on reaction. If you keep out of the distance in which a normal fake Puffbal, throw will be efficient there is not even mixup you have to fear. All other puffball variation can be stopped through 2P or even 2H. Her instant Air dash is low enough for 5P to connect, and since it is fast and has lots of forward momentum chances are good that you can go right on with a combo. Her Uppercut whiffs if you do a 2K as reversal; as you can start nearly all of your pressure / mixup options from this move is lost to her as a reversal. Apart from that even that she is quite fast thanks to her really bad range she has to get real close, what gives Axl a lot of time to react to her, and especially in anti air situations you are in reach for anti air attack way before she can connect a jump in and all of her delaying / crossup air movement stuff just gives you more time to aim. If she simply goes for tight instant air dash

If she has a KD her 6H is so damn slow that depending on how she times it you can even reversal her out of it on reaction , not to mention that after that move she has to do a high move to have a real frame trap with combo option.

The only thing that makes this matchup close to even for Jam is that she has incredibly good damage from random hits and you have to make unpleasant decision once your on the receiving end, as you have no chance to poke her out and she has good tick throw opportunities (the real high low stuff of her mixup can be blocked on reaction, the only thing that gives me some problems is her Dust put therefore that only has few setups and can be anticipated and ends her advantage if you block it).

btw.: I finally started a short overview with a paragraph on each matchup I feel expert enough to rate. Exspect one for every matchup I rated and feel free to discuss about it. You can find that as usual in the first post^^ (I plan finshing it this weekend).

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I absolutely disagree on that on and I guess all the Jam players I have met do too. Explain yourself^^.

Jam has to say goodbye to some of her most loved toys in this matchup. Her Puffball FB is not only worthless but a real danger as 63214S will go over it and as you can counter them on reaction. If you keep out of the distance in which a normal fake Puffbal, throw will be efficient there is not even mixup you have to fear. All other puffball variation can be stopped through 2P or even 2H. Her instant Air dash is low enough for 5P to connect, and since it is fast and has lots of forward momentum chances are good that you can go right on with a combo. Her Uppercut whiffs if you do a 2K as reversal; as you can start nearly all of your pressure / mixup options from this move is lost to her as a reversal. Apart from that even that she is quite fast thanks to her really bad range she has to get real close, what gives Axl a lot of time to react to her, and especially in anti air situations you are in reach for anti air attack way before she can connect a jump in and all of her delaying / crossup air movement stuff just gives you more time to aim. If she simply goes for tight instant air dash

If she has a KD her 6H is so damn slow that depending on how she times it you can even reversal her out of it on reaction , not to mention that after that move she has to do a high move to have a real frame trap with combo option.

The only thing that makes this matchup close to even for Jam is that she has incredibly good damage from random hits and you have to make unpleasant decision once your on the receiving end, as you have no chance to poke her out and she has good tick throw opportunities (the real high low stuff of her mixup can be blocked on reaction, the only thing that gives me some problems is her Dust put therefore that only has few setups and can be anticipated and ends her advantage if you block it).

btw.: I finally started a short overview with a paragraph on each matchup I feel expert enough to rate. Exspect one for every matchup I rated and feel free to discuss about it. You can find that as usual in the first post^^ (I plan finshing it this weekend).

I disagree somewhat, as you're neglecting to mention a lot of the tools Jam has at her disposal. With a SJ IAD, Jam gets past 5P with some ease, and with the huge hitboxes of TK Ryuujin and IAD Gekirin, she can beat out most pokes and AA options Axl has, especially up close (although I've found that 5H makes a decent AA in this matchup, surprisingly). Also having fast as hell moves like her amazing 6P, 2S and even j.P/j.S/j.H make her more likely to beat out whatever Axl is trying to keep her out, and if she knows what she's doing, she can almost always get a knockdown or huge combo off of these. She can also run under 5P, thus making it safe to run in, wait for or predict a low poke, and IAD into Axl's face during the recovery. In the meantime, FB puffball, as well as, to a lesser extent, the slidepast and the splits kick, still makes a great way to just break through Axl's zoning tools with invulnerability and possibly more combo potential. Add that to the fact that she has a decent DP that knocks down (which translates to a tool for trying to stuff long range pokes), and is hard as fuck to get off you once she's on, which for Axl means nearly impossible. (Same reason Eddie is hard, but I'd call that matchup more even for Axl, since it's kind of a one-mistake-loss situation for both players) All in all, she's DEFINITELY harder for Axl to deal with than Millia.

Also: Mind if I put some notes on matchups in the first post as well?

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Jam v Axl sucks for Axl. Anyone who can run fast, attack fast, and airdash fast is gonna give him probs. Harder than Milla? Hell no, that bitch is the hardest outside chipp IMO

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@ DW ..again on the Jam Matchup: She can't even tech back in after a single air hit or combo as with that she is right in reach for all of your anti air option. Furthermore it is correct that she has lots of great priority moves, but as you want and can attach her before she gets in range. She can try to anticipate an attack but that will only give her a clash or in some cases a trade; but that is seldom enough for her to establish her offensive game and since your defence modifier is better a trade is in usually in her favour. I don't agree that her Puffball / Evades stuff is that much of a great answer to Axls long range poke game in general. First the forward momentum of these moves may be good, but in no way high enough to actually shift from Axls best range for his long range game to her preferred distance (especially her evade move has even a lower range). and keep in mind that except the FB Puffball non of her variations of that move have full body inv. Most of them you just can hit out by 2P or even 5P (the seem to be inv. in the middle, quite strange).. and I already mentioned that her FB is not her tool of choice to get in. If she tries bait a low poke to go over don't do her the favour. On longe range you always should have the time to at least block or even catch her with 2S, especially if you use 2P or 5P (which have quite a good recovery / overall execution time) there should be nothing she could do to get in directely after you whiffed one of them (exept she already is too near :P). Furthermore should she get that near trough running under a 5P just jump back and either use j.S or j6P to keep her away (especially a j.S together with air movement may be something to add to your reportoi as it allows you to repostion yourself while attacking, still nothing you can spam in this matchup). btw.: even when she gets in she hasn't dealt damage yet, while Axls does in many instances while trying to keep her out (and actually he will himself from there find ways to put some pressure on Jam himself). Once she's in the offence it gets quite dangerous, but you still have methods to escape or at least to get hit in a way while trying which doesn't allow her to ground you or to land a full damage combo (as she has no range and uses lots of frame traps backdashes work quite nice; don't forget to make good use of FD if you can get her out of range to connect her next move in the frame trap your freed and may even be able to punish the whiff). It's not easy but there's still a chance and even in her offence she may not resort to corssup or jump in / IAD stuff as that makes her vulnerable to 2S or your catches. Just play this matchup with caution and don't try fancy stuff when you should simply block.

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@ DW

..again on the Jam Matchup:

She can't even tech back in after a single air hit or combo as with that she is right in reach for all of your anti air option.

Oftentimes after the pullback of a poke, Jam can jump over you with a tech. This makes her hard to AA, and if she faultlesses, your pokes may end up letting her get in. Therefore, it's best to keep maximum range when trying to zone.

Furthermore it is correct that she has lots of great priority moves, but as you want and can attach her before she gets in range. She can try to anticipate an attack but that will only give her a clash or in some cases a trade; but that is seldom enough for her to establish her offensive game and since your defence modifier is better a trade is in usually in her favour.

This is true in the case of her DP, but IAD j.H is a very strong option for her. It goes over 5P, 2H, 2P, and Rensen at max or near max range for all of them, and scores a CH on Axl before he can recover. Throwing out a 6K or 2S predictively (IE instead of the other pokes) can beat it, but also opens you up to things like run forward+6P, or FB puffball, and there's always the chance that the j.H or a last-second Gekirin will still beat the chain (Non-IAD property), as I've seen happen many times.

I don't agree that her Puffball / Evades stuff is that much of a great answer to Axls long range poke game in general. First the forward momentum of these moves may be good, but in no way high enough to actually shift from Axls best range for his long range game to her preferred distance (especially her evade move has even a lower range). and keep in mind that except the FB Puffball non of her variations of that move have full body inv. Most of them you just can hit out by 2P or even 5P (the seem to be inv. in the middle, quite strange).. and I already mentioned that her FB is not her tool of choice to get in.

If she can get the FB puffball (IE the FB flash) started up, your only options are Housoubako or block. SBing may be a good answer here, however, since it's a move that with practice, one can SB pretty consistently. Still, that doesn't help you if you have a move out (Even Gaps made by the Jam IBing are dangerous for this sometimes). The only real way to pre-empt this is to cut off the slide early with 2H, 2P, or rensen. Very risky, however, as once she has the invincibility, these moves being out will get you CH'd.

If she tries bait a low poke to go over don't do her the favour. On longe range you always should have the time to at least block or even catch her with 2S, especially if you use 2P or 5P (which have quite a good recovery / overall execution time) there should be nothing she could do to get in directely after you whiffed one of them (exept she already is too near :P). Furthermore should she get that near trough running under a 5P just jump back and either use j.S or j6P to keep her away (especially a j.S together with air movement may be something to add to your reportoi as it allows you to repostion yourself while attacking, still nothing you can spam in this matchup).

Again, IAD j.H will go over most things without giving Axl a chance to recover. And even if you did have time to block, blocking up close against Jam is a very bad situation for Axl, as her Oki is good, and her options for combo or knockdown are great off of high, low, OR throw. In the meantime, Jam is great for building guard bar, so getting hit by a single combo means a great deal of your life, and most likely another positive situation for Jam.

Once she's in the offence it gets quite dangerous, but you still have methods to escape or at least to get hit in a way while trying which doesn't allow her to ground you or to land a full damage combo (as she has no range and uses lots of frame traps backdashes work quite nice; don't forget to make good use of FD if you can get her out of range to connect her next move in the frame trap your freed and may even be able to punish the whiff). It's not easy but there's still a chance and even in her offence she may not resort to corssup or jump in / IAD stuff as that makes her vulnerable to 2S or your catches.

I agree with this part.

Just play this matchup with caution and don't try fancy stuff when you should simply block.

Agreed, however, I'd still say that this matchup is probably one of Axl's worst. That by no means makes it unwinnable, though. Like Shoto says, patience and ability to block are key. I'd probably call it at 6-4 for Jam, which is by no means bad, but worse than, say, Eddie or Millia for sure.

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I don't have much experience with human players, except on #reload's VSNET, however I found something interesting against Jam which are Air throws. Especially that she tends to IAD and do a HS cross-up over my (too often ?) crouching body, or double jump over my head (can't reach with 2+S...) So when she IAD, I jump and catch, and before she finishes her 2bl jump, I super jump to catch her. I won't say that it makes me win the match or anything (and again, that's on #reload, not AC), but because I found it useful, I thought about posting it here... Anyway, is it a good idea (as I never got any penality from it) ? Or is it best to defend/escape ?

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If you can get an airthrow off, by all means, do it. Especially in the double-jump situation, that sounds like a great thing to do. I wouldn't rely too much on being able to catch an IAD with it... but maybe that's just me sucking at airthrows.

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I found out that the best way to start this match is to do a simple backdash as it's safe and allows you to watch her actions. It's effective if : - She puffballs -> Enough time to whether catch or block. Better than the Instant backdash as it's an AA and you won't have any tension to FD it. - She air dashes -> Enough time to whether catch (if she spams j.HS) or AA her with 2+S (the distance created by the backdash is more than enough for this) - She does 214+K or 236+K -> You just make it whiff. You can also catch it afterward... - She steps back -> Well, you're at your distance now ^^ - She attacks randomly with any normal -> It whiffs. Just punish it. - Misc -> Can't see anything else ^^ Well I think it's the best match starter. What do you think ?

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Well, backdashing doesn't really allow you any momentum, and I'm skeptical that it'll prevent her from getting in, since Axl's backdash isn't very invulnerable and rather slow, and I'd rather avoid having to sit and block against Jam for as far into the match as possible. I'm pretty sure that Jam can get you before the backdash is over simply by running forward at match start, and I'm actually a little skeptical that you can beat any IAD attempt that way. Not saying it's a bad idea all the time, but there are a lot of reasons not to.

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Well it's true she can run and hit before you finish it. She can even run and catch. But actually will she really do that ? Considering that your f.S hits far and staggers, she won't just run in in hope to hit you ! That's what Sol players do ! lol Still some Jam players are not really smart (some only ?^^), but what can you do ? They are reckless, so the match won't be too difficult... The next round just do a f.S at the beginning to cool her down... And I'm sure about the IAD. You can catch 214+P on reaction (well if you are prepared of course) and AA if she does a ISJAD (same as before with even 6+P this time). Of course I agree backdashing isn't safe because Axl's the worst of the game, but it doesn't change anything here. "Lots of bad reasons" ? Don't see anymore than one. And I may have said "it's the best" but it doesn't mean "it's the best of the game against Jam". If you can know what your opponent usually does at the beginning, then just act accordingly. It's just a basic start against an unknown Jam player if you want to play it safe by knowing well your matchup (But actually you should always know a bit of your opponent...) BTW : That's what I noticed after playing on #Reload's GGXXNetplay. So it MAY not be relevant for AC, and it MAY not correspond for high-skilled players (but then again why are you reading this, you should know that already !^^)

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Still some Jam players are not really smart (some only ?^^), but what can you do ? They are reckless, so the match won't be too difficult... The next round just do a f.S at the beginning to cool her down...

Prejudice.

Don't judge.

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Hey ! I judge if I want, Sir ! No just kidding ^^ I think I had enough 70% combo following a random hit made out of nowhere from her to say that ! lol Then again I'm kidding... She does 80% from them... What a low trick character !

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