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Axl v. Venom

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I have to disagree with some of this, theres a large middle area where axl > venom

as the venom:

i play against an axl a lot, and i'm very hesitant to summon pool balls within any range that can get hit by rensen. any area directly above that and venom can get hit by 5P/6K/2S

imo, venom wants to be as far away as possible (already mentioned) or right the fuck on top of axl, i'm all for rush-down axl, and i know he does indeed have mix-ups, but you can't say his mix-up is as good as most of the characters who are more prone to rush-down. I think both characters can control a large amount of the screen, and once one blocks he's got the advantage for a while. If anything puts this in venom's favor, it'd be that both characters play this match somewhat similarly, but once venom gets in, he's better at putting the match away than axl is.

Not to mention axl can do 40% to venom off a 5P with 25% bar...no corner necessary, venom NEEDS corner or at least some nice ball shenanigans to do that damage.

Long story short, this match up to me is, both characters have to stay on the ground unless they have some insurance (venom has balls out, axl is gonna frc/bomer/FB somethin), if the match can stay in that mid-range, axl can dominate, that mid range starts around the edge of axl's 3P/2D moves, ends at the end of 2P/rensen). If the match stays at full screen/close quarters, 9/10 times venom will take it.

I'm not really sure where you're coming from on this as it seems to me the edge of 3P/2D area is pretty good for Venom. You say laying balls is dangerous when rensen threatens you, that's true, but Venom has a lot of very nice pokes around that range, chiefly fS but also 2D and in some situations even 6H. If you can get Axl to block something, you can safely set a ball, and that makes things so much easier for you. Axl really wants this not to happen, and should try to use the threat of Rensen to let him advance to where Venom's pokes are more cumbersome. Running rensen is a good tool for corner pushes, and fS has the best hitbox among Axl's normals for dealing with Venom's pokes. 3P is often good but it will never beat Venom's fS; I say this as a player of both characters here.

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i'll give you all of that, but maybe if i reword this, and from experience a lot of this has become based on preference, and i ask you as someone who plays both characters, do you ever play axl vs venom? where do you feel most comfortable with venom? and at mid range, venom does have options, but doesn't axl twice as many? and I used to 6H more in this area, but local axl can sometimes counter on reaction. If i touch you with anything close range it doesn't go into ball, it goes into venom mix-up pressure which is way worse Whenever I'm midrange it just feels like a giant !!! comes up over my head, because it seems if we play the guessing game, the risk/reward/rock paper scissors tends to lead in axls favor. I'm not gonna get axl to jump at this range, but axl can get venom to jump, and axl definately has ways to deal with jumpers here as well as if i stayed on the ground. maybe if i added that most of the axl's i've played (i play one almost every day) seem comfortable with trading hits a lot of the time, you can see why i'd feel this way

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If you're seriously worried about getting countered, I don't think we're talking about the same situation. Venom wins the mid-range footsie war most of the time, even without balls. I mean, there's definitely a spacing where Axl has the advantage in that respect, but it's not some ginormic range that's most of the screen. Venom 2S and f.S are really fuckin' manly moves, and I'm pretty sure f.S in particular can stuff rensen pretty handily from a good distance, like Ky's. You can argue the damage thing gives Axl some kind of vague edge, but zoning ain't a game he's winning here, just flat out.

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but axl can get venom to jump, and axl definately has ways to deal with jumpers here as well as if i stayed on the ground.

Correction: Axl can deal with you MUCH BETTER if you jump.

Yeah, you can't just sit there against a good Axl and have free reign to dick around with whatever, but we're talking about high-level, you both have a strong command of the way your characters and the other characters zone, Venom is at an advantage. Advantage doesn't mean Axl can't dominate if he's smart enough to trick you or has the command of spacing to put himself in a good position when he can and defend well when he can't, because GG just isn't that kind of game.

EDIT: And yeah, don't poke with 6H at neutral except as AA. I have no trouble dealing with that move on the ground.

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A nice chat you have here. From my personal experience as a Venom versus Axl, my 5S or 2S range is the last place where I want to be in this matchup (neutral position, no balls around). In the best case scenario, I successfully poke and summon the ball... only to go to block and be pushed away from the ball. In worst case, I get a counter-hit and\or knockdown off Rensen ([4]6S). And risk\reward is not in Venom's favor here. Of course if I ever get a full screen distance, this is good. And getting close _with a ball summoned_ is good for Venom as well. But significiant part of the game is the midrange, and Venom cannot effectively get off midrange (jump is banned, poking is risky, dashing without balls is suicide) except by blocking =) Also, during attack Venom may have more mixups with balls out, but Axl does more damage. Period. And in close range, TK Bomber >>>> TK madstruggle =) So I cannot agree that this matchup favors Venom as much as 6-4. I'd rather say that it is pretty even, like 5-5 or something. It is just may feel heavier for Axl players because you have to alter game plan significantly, but it isn't easy for Venom as well - normally you aren't punished for summoning balls from the other side of screen ))

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A nice chat you have here.

From my personal experience as a Venom versus Axl, my 5S or 2S range is the last place where I want to be in this matchup (neutral position, no balls around). In the best case scenario, I successfully poke and summon the ball... only to go to block and be pushed away from the ball. In worst case, I get a counter-hit and\or knockdown off Rensen ([4]6S). And risk\reward is not in Venom's favor here.

Er, yeah you can get punished for summoning far away, but you can always get a knockdown and do sweep->Summon.

Of course if I ever get a full screen distance, this is good. And getting close _with a ball summoned_ is good for Venom as well. But significiant part of the game is the midrange, and Venom cannot effectively get off midrange (jump is banned, poking is risky, dashing without balls is suicide) except by blocking =)

From a neutral position, getting in on any character is a guessing game. Just in Axl's case, you have to wait for him to throw out something before you can IAD. Yes, trying to run away and keep Axl out from match start isn't prudent most of the time, but getting in is where you want to be and not super difficult, especially if you can get that knockdown, and frankly, f.S is going to beat most moves Axl tries at match start. A good venom isn't trying to get in just by running forward, so Axl's ground tools aren't going to be as effective as against someone who is. It's a guessing game, and winning it makes the match turn heavily in your favor.

Also, during attack Venom may have more mixups with balls out, but Axl does more damage. Period. And in close range, TK Bomber >>>> TK madstruggle =)

Facts:

-TK Bomber has a minimum height, increasing its startup. From the air, the two moves (S mad struggle) have about the same startup, and TKB is more visible.

-Axl cannot normally do TKB in a blockstring from the ground. He has to either airdash (This requires meter to rensen you first, and then you're expecting the overheads), or hit with an extremely close 6P (Which doesn't leave you in much blockstun, you still have most AAs as an option WITHOUT IBing) or c.S (You can still jab out if you have a jab.)

-TK Bomber has 18F recovery after landing, meaning if you whiff it, you get hurt. Many venoms use S Madstruggle to whiff intentionally and do more mixup, as it only has 6F recovery after landing.

-TK Bomber has a lot of blockstun. But with the high recovery, this only really allows you to continue your blockstring by linking 2K or 5K. You can do frametraps, but then, so can anyone off good SD. S Mad Struggle has a whole ton of mixup you can do with it, including whiff->Throw (Tough for Axl in particular to deal with), Hit->Low, Hit->Madstruggle again (High), Whiff->Low, etc. It's genuinely tough to block, as opposed to just forcing you to block.

-TK bomber nets you a combo near the corner, or knockdown all the way across the screen. TK mad struggle can net you knockdown anywhere and you get to stay on top of Axl and even summon balls.

So I cannot agree that this matchup favors Venom as much as 6-4. I'd rather say that it is pretty even, like 5-5 or something. It is just may feel heavier for Axl players because you have to alter game plan significantly, but it isn't easy for Venom as well - normally you aren't punished for summoning balls from the other side of screen ))

It not being Easy for the Venom player, like I've mentioned before, doesn't make it an even matchup. Yes, you still have to play some guessing games, and yes you can still lose the match for guessing wrong, but in terms of options in a given situation, and ability to shut the other character down once they get going, as well as turn the match around once it's started to go one way, Venom is at a significant advantage.

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-TK Bomber has a minimum height, increasing its startup. From the air, the two moves (S mad struggle) have about the same startup, and TKB is more visible.

TK Mad Struggle also de-facto has minimum height - it becomes 0-hit version if done too low. And 0-hit version usually sucks, it is totally punishable.

-Axl cannot normally do TKB in a blockstring from the ground.

Neither can Venom. TK Mad Struggle from blockstring is not safe unless balls are involved.

All in all, I see your points, but I'm kinda surprised that you omit the fact that bomber leads to damaging combos. Period. It is kinda wrong to ignore combos that do about 300-350dmg for 25-50% tension (or with some guard involved), right?

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Well yeah. Axl gets some nice damage if he can set it up right (More than 25% meter doesn't really help you get more damage, it just lets you combo from midscreen), but the setups for that kinda damage are the less solid combo setups. TKB in the corner or CH FB or Kokuu FRC in the corner will net you a nice 230-330 (Character matters a lot. Without guardbar, optimal combos only do 300-ish on Dizzy, Millia, that sort of people. Venom ones cap out around 278 (Kokuugeki combo, 272 for bomber) without guardbar. Keep in mind that this is ideal conditions, in the corner, starting from the top of the lifebar, etc.), but you're capping around 150-230 range from anything you're going to get a lot without guardbar (Rensen FRC, throw especially).

I'm not saying damage isn't a factor, but it's not a big enough problem for Venom that it makes the matchup even. Yes, Axl does better damage than Venom in a combovid/guardbar/YOU JUST GOT YOMI'D situation. But the fact of the matter is that TKB is a risky mixup (It simply will not work in a lot of situations, and ones where it will are sketchy as fuck, since you can poke out of it in any situation where it's not a meaty) and Mad Struggle is a viable overhead that Venoms use a lot in actual matches and can genuinely make blocking ambiguous. Aside from that, Venom's undeniable ability to beat Axl out at more ranges than not, and furthermore, his ability to keep Axl locked down and guessing for long strings that build guardbar make this match very difficult. It is considered to be Axl's worst matchup, clocking in at 6-4, because of these factors.

As a general rule, guilty gear isn't the kind of game where favorable matchups are just completely stacked, so obviously Axl has some tools and it's not always going to look one-sided. Having to block in certain situations doesn't automatically mean the matchup isn't in venom's favor, and it's just speaking to how well-balanced the game is that there are ways for Axl to get venom on the run. But by that logic, every matchup in the game would be even (Maybe not May-Anji), which is simply not true. The fact of the matter is that a very high-level Venom is more likely to win this match than a very high-level Axl. Venom's a harder character to learn, too. Your mileage may vary, etc.

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i can def agree that tk mad struggle > tk bomber, its like a 7 > 3 match-up, and bomber isn't even a bad move

but thats cuz that forcebreak is just tits

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I play against a Venom almost everyday and the midscreen battles we have are fierce. My favorite range is at the end of my chains. Axl's mixup options are neat, but in this matchup i prefer to conserve bar and wait for my opponent to take the first step forward. The feeling of catching someone with a 2S into a bomber loop for only 25% bar is awesome. Im usually always charging so if venom tries summoning a pool ball or shooting it without an FRC my rensen eats them and ends with knockdown. Venom doesn't really have a reversal on wake-up so I'm not too afraid of throwing something out to keep him blocking. Venom is a rare character in that he can hole himself up in a corner and attack you rather than you forcing him into a corner. I hate being outside of my chains range (like fullscreen) while venom shoots pool balls at me all day and have to work my way in.

That said I usually go for 2P into rensen at the farthest I can for oki. It keeps them blocking and ends with me back at that comfortable range. Once in awhile I'll go for 2P into unblockable if I run up closer on their knockdown, but the Venom I play is pretty wise to that gimmick by now and punishes it pretty hard. When venom gets in on you, usually just outside of f.S, that's when I think the tide of the game begins to turn. Axl rocks socks with his range, but I think Venom has MUCH better options up close. Venom's c.S is amazing and his TK forcebreak puts you in sooo much blockstun if you didn't eat it. At that point I go into super-concentration mode. Venom's blockstrings are ridiculous, his oki setups will keep you guessing with way to block, and IF you do manage to successfully block you guard bar has probably been cranked considerably. We've established Axl's anti-air is great, but when venom jumps right on top of you on your 2S misses its like fuuuccckkk.

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