[CSE-CP] Tsubaki Yayoi Simple Questions and Answers thread! Version 3!

[BatousaiJ]

Knowing the uses of her various normals first of all and when you should use them.

Learning her BnB that gives you positional/free charge advantage.

Tight, tricky block strings with kara throws and unblockable set ups.

Having a feel to when you've got time to get some free charge.

Finally her match up against other characters in the roster.

Not in that order but you get the idea.

[pktazn]

What Batousai said.

But definitely know her moves, what they do, and what they can connect to first since it will help when approaching your opponent and learning/doing/making her combos. Also make note that most of her moves are close-ranged.

[Raektis]

I'm having some issues with a specific challenge in Tsubakis challenge mode. I swear I'm doing the combo right, it's the 214D->Air combo with 236D->214D -> pick up in the corner. Everytime I manage to pull out the final D in the air, game won't give me credit from doing the combo. Instead, it switches out to a totally different combo. Is this a common bug or is my game somehow messed up?

Playing EU Xbox 360 version, patched naturally to latest version.

[Edge Reaper]

Yeah the close ranged nature of her attacks is really throwing me off considering I used to play Haku and Valk before...But I'm getting the hang of it. Thanks for the advice.

[Balmafula]

How exactly do you pull off a kara-throw? I've seen other Tsubakis pull grabs out of their combos, and I'm not sure if those are just normal throws or kara-throws. I'm guessing the latter, because whenever I try to just throw normally during a combo, I'm not quite close enough. The only way it works is if I dash in and then rapid cancel, but I'm pretty sure that's not the best way.

I've gone this long without really getting how to do this, so I figure I should take the time to finally learn.

[Airk]

The way you kara throw (I sortof wrote some of this up in my 'mixup' post for the tutorial video) as Tsubaki is this:

You begin to perform a 6C and then cancel it into a throw. This causes Tsubaki to 'lean' forwards as if starting a 6C, but then cancel it into a throw, essentially moving herself forwards very quickly before throwing. The actual method for doing this is to press 6CB i.e. push 6C and then VERY quickly thereafter also push B. There's not much visual indication to tell you that you got it right, except that your grab will have more range.

[Zeromus_X]

For an audio cue, you can tell if you did the kara throw right if you hear Tsubaki's 6C sound clip when you perform the throw.

[Byuusan]

is ti faster to get charge spamming 5D or 2D?

[Dusk Thanatos]

2D is fastest if you have a lot of time, because it starts slow and then gets /very/ fast after the first few moments. For short amounts of time, 5D is better.

With 5D, note that just holding down the button isn't optimal. With 5D, the install guage will increase fast for a bit, then slow down, and then you'll stop charging automatically; what you want to do is stop about when the gain begins to slow down, and hit 5D again.

[NemesisZeru]

Well...I haven't been keeping up with the CS2 stuff much...is Tsubaki still as bad as she was in CS1? I remember hearing she was in the bottom 3 back then. ;_;

[Dusk Thanatos]

Tsubaki's hella legit now.

Recent tier lists have her in A. She does decent to good damage and has good corner carry, and her pressure is no longer a joke.

She also gets charge a /lot/ easier.

[Airk]

How dangerous Tsubaki is now is directly tied to how hard her opponent works to keep her from getting charge. If she can get lots of charge, she has some crazy stuff. If she has to get by on little bits nabbed here and there, she's merely solid.

[Tri Edge]

When is the best time to use the C version of 236/214/22 series?

I've watched some play videos but still can't really get it.

[NTF_Madara]

For using the series in order in one combo (If I understand you correctly), you do this when you hit a ground combo on a crouching opponent. You will most likely get this combo with her overhead which forces players to crouch if it hits so you would do 6A>5CC>6BB>236C>214C>22C. Sorry if my notation is a little off, not used to doing it.

[KingMashimaro]

I just started playing Blazblue, would doing all the challenges for Tsubaki be a good start in understanding her or would just straight practicing the dustloop combos here be better? Since challenge mode offers some sort of visual instruction on how to perform the combos I wasn't too sure.

And how much time should I spend practicing combos versus playing against players?

-Much appreciated!

[Airk]

The challenge mode combos aren't half bad. At the very least, they seem to teach some the general precepts, so if you can do them, it should be a little easier to move on to others.

As for "practice vs playing against people" well, it depends on how good your execution is, really. Practice is only good for tightening up execution/improving combos, so if you are comfortable with your execution and never find yourself going "#$%$#^! I dropped that combo again?!" or "$%^$%^!!! That was supposed to be a DP!" or "^%&^%^$&%@@!! Where was my super?!" then you don't really need to use training mode at all. For everyone else, well, your practice should be based on how much of your trouble you gauge lies in your execution vs how much lies in your game plan/strategy/matchup knowledge etc.

This may be roughly even, or it may tend heavily towards playing real people, or, if you're like me, you may start to think you should never be allowed outside of training mode. It's also worth noting that, while it's not a great idea for some things, playing against the CPU can be very beneficial in certain areas - it provides sortof a bridge between training mode and real opponents, because now your 'training dummy' isn't standing there saying "C'mon, hit me!" but you actually have to confirm your combos under semi-real circumstances, so you'll learn if, like me, for example, you NEVER remember to jump cancel your 5B when you hit an airborne target with it, and then you can work on that elsewhere.

.

So really, whatever works for you, but probably some of each.

[diospyros]

When doing IAD combos, how late is late for the second part of jcc to land? Sometimes I either get it and move to 5b or I don't.

-thanks in advance

[DanTheTimid]

As some one both relatively new to BB and to Tsubaki, I'm finding myself unclear on when to actually use specials outside of combos. I tend to spend most of the match blocking, charging, doing 5B if their grounded, or doing 2C if their airborne. If I land a 5B or 2C I go into a combo which usually involves specials in it some where, if a 5B is blocked I move into a mix up block string, and if I eventually score a hit again move into a combo with specials in it. But outside of that, I'm not really sure when to use specials. 236x seems to get stuffed by quite a lot of stuff, and except at the ideal distances or via giving up a full super meter to Rapid Cancel, is often punishable on block. 214x seems about the same as 236x, except maybe worse vs ground, a little better vs air, and the b version is better at going through projectiles... however even if I go through the projectile at most distances where my opponent is using projectiles I don't move far enough torward them to actually hit them with the attack portion and thus get punished during recovery instead (usually worse then if I'd just been hit by the projectile). I have absolutely no clue what scenario to use 22x outside of combos since at any range where I could use it 5B seems the better choice. 623x seems like an inferior anti-air to 2c, the B and C versions seem pretty much useless, the A version some times trades if I mash it out and they drop a combo, but some times it gets stuff too so the only real version of 623 I find worth the trouble is the D version do to its invincibility, and even then, trying to mash it out can get you punished if they just stop and block, or worse yet, 236236D comes out instead, gets stuffed, and I'm down a full super meter, so overall I've found it not worth the trouble either. Like 22x, I have no clue how to use j.236x outside of combos. Finally j.214x seems like it could be useful, yet not really sure when to use this. When I approach a grounded opponent from the air I generally find air dashing into j.CC to be superior, but I also try to stay out of the air if I can at all help it and prefer to approach from the ground.

TL:DR

Which specials, if any, should I be using outside of combos, and in what situations should I be using them?

Bonus Question:

Should I ever be comboing into my attacking super? I notice that none of the beginner combos you guys have listed seem to end in Tsubaki's 236236 super, so I tend to only use the C version as a Get The Heck Off Me move, and I don't really know when to use the D version.

-Thanks in advance!

[BatousaiJ]

Tsubaki's 623A/D is a good way to get people out of your face if they don't respect your DP option.

236C/D also have their uses as 236D is + on block, crosses over even in the corner and goes into a meaty combo off hit/CH. 236C you can combo off of on hit with 5A/2A starter and 5B if it's a CH and if you make sure you hit them at the end of its active frame, it's relatively safe.

214D has a great deal of invinc frames and on hit/CH it goes into a very damaging combo, with or without other charges to expand.

It'll get beaten out by low pokes but it's one of those high risk, high award kind of move that's great to have as an option especially against zoning characters.

Make sure you use 22C to break primers and get that + frames if they're too far away for you to continue your block string normally and mix in that sexy 22D unblockable in unpredicatable fashion to keep them on their toes as a naked 22D hit can often lead to massive damage.

As for her 236236C/D, it's nice to be able to add a bit of damage at the end of a combo if you so choose but it's generally a better idea to save for RC unless it's a kill combo. 236236C also works as a good reversal but getting baited can often spell doom.

[SolxBaiken]

Tsubaki had the WORST Distortion Drives (supers) in the entire game.

236236+C has ZERO range, you have to be butt touching close for it to hit. If your opponent is rather aggressive and chases after you on a knock down you can use it on wake up, but high level players can block/prevent it from connecting and punish you. The other weakness of this move is the lack of combo potential, there are combos that can end into it, but most aren't that great a bit situational.

236236+D suffers from the SAME problems the C version does with the EXCEPTION of it having a bit of a good hitbox (which is a alot more out there than C's) however the D ver does meh to the same damage as the C ver unless you have 3 or more charge (it does some nice damage at a full 5 meter) but again it lacks great combo potential and if you whiff it you just blew all your charges, which you could've been put to better use.

214214+D is arguably her most impractical super as to use it at optimum efficiency you NEED 5 charges, honestly doing it outside of having 5 is kind of pointless unless you have a real solid lock on your opponent and you can assure to keep it that way. There are 2 big problems with this super; one is makes you a bit more predictable as you're clearly going to be using mostly/all D ver moves now because two even with 5 charges you don't have much time. Honestly I've caught myself using this super simply for the invincibility so I can block, heh. Challenge 10 teaches you a pretty good albeit slightly impractical Install combo.

In the end your meter should be used for other things like Rapids, Counter Assaults, and hell I'd even say going for her Astral is better then trying for her DDs.

But this is coming from a newb = w=

[pktazn]

Basically what Batousai said. Also don't try to mash moves out, more often than not you'll get something you didn't want and get punished for it. If you're trying to get people out of the air, just use Tsu's anti-airs like 2C.

623A can also be used as a DP though its probably more reliable to just use counter assault if you have 50 meter.

Just wanted to add for 236C/D (even if this seems like common sense) that you should be aware of your distance since you can stop in front of them if you're too far away.

I know you can combo into her 236236C super from 6CC, usually in the corner, and the D version isn't recommended considering I've never seen it used in the videos Jourdal and I upload. You need charge to get more damage when you do the D version which can be a waste since that same charge could be used for other situations (should something terrible happen) and it doesn't have the invincibility that the C version has. But as Batousai said, it's usually used in a kill combo though if you feel the need it can be used as a reversal in CS2 now.

[Airk]

236x seems to get stuffed by quite a lot of stuff, and except at the ideal distances or via giving up a full super meter to Rapid Cancel, is often punishable on block.

I'm confused by this. At least, in the current version (1.03 aka "The BBCS2 patch"), the WORST you can be at with any of the 236X moves is -5... which is unpunishable without IB except by a small subset of moves... and that -5 pretty much NEVER happens unless you are right next to your opponent when you do the move. More often than not, you're going to be at enough ADVANTAGE to stuff your opponents attempts at a counterattack if you do a jab. It's important to use the right version for your distance though - you can't just throw out the C version willy nilly.

214x seems about the same as 236x, except maybe worse vs ground, a little better vs air, and the b version is better at going through projectiles...

More and more, I feel like you are talking about pre-balance patch Tsubaki, since, well, 214B doesn't even necessarily go through projectiles anymore.

I have absolutely no clue what scenario to use 22x outside of combos since at any range where I could use it 5B seems the better choice.

22X has longer range than 5B, and sets you up for a decent combo on CH. 22C chips off guard primers and is 100% safe on block (leaves you at +1 now). 22D obviously has the unblockable trick going for it.

623x seems like an inferior anti-air to 2c, the B and C versions seem pretty much useless,

B version is a very strong anti air if you need/want to anti-air early (i.e. you're worried about timing, or to beat out air attacks that you have trouble catching with 2C) because it is invulnerable once it leaves the ground. C version is indeed mostly combo fodder.

the A version some times trades if I mash it out and they drop a combo, but some times it gets stuff too so the only real version of 623 I find worth the trouble is the D version do to its invincibility,

D version only has _1_ more invulnerability frame than the A version. Any real advantage here is mostly in your mind.

and even then, trying to mash it out can get you punished if they just stop and block, or worse yet, 236236D comes out instead, gets stuffed, and I'm down a full super meter, so overall I've found it not worth the trouble either.

.... don't mash?

Like 22x, I have no clue how to use j.236x outside of combos.

j.236 is tricky. it can be used for weird crossup shenanigans, but is mostly a combo tool.

Should I ever be comboing into my attacking super? I notice that none of the beginner combos you guys have listed seem to end in Tsubaki's 236236 super, so I tend to only use the C version as a Get The Heck Off Me move, and I don't really know when to use the D version.

It's noted in a footnote somewhere that most corner combos that end in a 22X knockdown can be finished with a 6C>236236C. The D version works similarly, but should really only be used if you need that extra bit of damage for the kill (and even then, only if you have more than 2 charges.) You should definitely feel free to end with 236236C when it's convenient, because it'll tack on another 800 damage. About the only thing I've found the D version to be good for outside of like, a Mugen finisher, is if you've got a midscreen combo going on (5BB>2BB>5CC) and you need just a bit more damage to get the kill, 236236D is much easier to connect from there - I think they reduced the range on 236236C, because I USED to be able to connect it off of 5CC easily, but now it seems to whiff a lot.

236236C has very nice invulnerability frames now, so makes a good reversal super if you're willing to take the risk, as hitting will also buy you time to charge. 236236D is...mostly just odd, though it does have the advantage of hitting ZERO frames after super freeze, so if your opponent isn't blocking when that flash happens, they're hit.

[DanTheTimid]

First off, thank you very much everyone for your thoughts, they are all much appreciated!

214D has a great deal of invinc frames and on hit/CH it goes into a very damaging combo, with or without other charges to expand.

It'll get beaten out by low pokes but it's one of those high risk, high award kind of move that's great to have as an option especially against zoning characters.

Very interesting. Does it have better projectile invincibility then the B version? Should I be using this move as my way of getting in on projectile spam happy zoner character? In any case thank you very much for all that advice.

214214+D is arguably her most impractical super as to use it at optimum efficiency you NEED 5 charges, honestly doing it outside of having 5 is kind of pointless unless you have a real solid lock on your opponent and you can assure to keep it that way. There are 2 big problems with this super; one is makes you a bit more predictable as you're clearly going to be using mostly/all D ver moves now because two even with 5 charges you don't have much time. Honestly I've caught myself using this super simply for the invincibility so I can block, heh. Challenge 10 teaches you a pretty good albeit slightly impractical Install combo.

So would it be fair to say as a beginner I should just ignore this move all together? Also, in scenarios where you use it for the invincibility, wouldn't it be better to use the 236236C super, or is this assuming they're at a range where that won't connect? In any case thank you very much for your thoughts on the supers.

214A can also be used as a DP though its probably more reliable to just use counter assault if you have 50 meter.

Does it have more invincible frames, more damage, or leave me in a better state on trade then her actual DP, 623A? I'm assuming you mean using it as a get off me move since you mention the better choice being a Counter Assualt if I have the meter but would you suggest it as an anti-air, or 2C still superior? Or compared to 623B?

I'm confused by this. At least, in the current version (1.03 aka "The BBCS2 patch"), the WORST you can be at with any of the 236X moves is -5... which is unpunishable without IB except by a small subset of moves... and that -5 pretty much NEVER happens unless you are right next to your opponent when you do the move. More often than not, you're going to be at enough ADVANTAGE to stuff your opponents attempts at a counterattack if you do a jab. It's important to use the right version for your distance though - you can't just throw out the C version willy nilly.

Interesting, as mentioned, I'm pretty new to BB as well as tsubaki, so I don't have much experience for or against the 236x moves, but the only one I really found to be relatively safe to throw out randomly was the D version. I don't have distances down yet, and the fact the moves pushes you right up next to them does seem to usually put you in your opponents jab range, and many jabs lead to much longer, much larger damage combos, thus after a few of those I've just sort of stopped using 236x moves outside of the rare D version on the assumption that until I played more and got a better feel the right distances in practice mode that these were moves I should just stay away from, but if they truly are as safe as you say its possible I just go got trying to jab on block when I should have just been blocking, and as such I'm definitely going to have to put them back into my footsie/spacing game again.

More and more, I feel like you are talking about pre-balance patch Tsubaki, since, well, 214B doesn't even necessarily go through projectiles anymore.

Certainly not easily, I didn't play BB competitively in any version prior to 1.3 (I purchased both BB:CT and BB:CS on release, but only really played story mode as the game felt too complicated to play against real people) so I can't speak on what sort of projectile invulnerability it used to have, but this has been the move I've been using when dealing with projectile characters because, in my limited practice with all of her moves, it was the only one that seemed to have any potential at all for helping punish or at least close the gap on people zoning me with projectiles. If she's got a better move for getting in on or punishing projectile zoning I'm all for hearing it (214D perhaps), and if she has none at all that are worth using and I just need to try to walk forward toward them and block or whatever, so be it too, better to know then to continue to handicap myself trying to make a move work for a purpose its not capable of working for.

22X has longer range than 5B, and sets you up for a decent combo on CH. 22C chips off guard primers and is 100% safe on block (leaves you at +1 now). 22D obviously has the unblockable trick going for it.

Interesting, was not aware these moves had better range, is there any reason to ever use anything besides 22C or 22D?

B version is a very strong anti air if you need/want to anti-air early (i.e. you're worried about timing, or to beat out air attacks that you have trouble catching with 2C) because it is invulnerable once it leaves the ground. C version is indeed mostly combo fodder.

Very interesting, good to know, thank you.

D version only has _1_ more invulnerability frame than the A version. Any real advantage here is mostly in your mind.

Wow, also VERY interesting and good to know. Though I'd kind of given up on using 623x as a get off me move anyway, its good to know that the D version is basically a waste and if I do feel inclined to try to use it I should stick with the A version.

.... don't mash?

That's actually what I've been doing now, gave up on using it as a get off me move, now when I'm getting combo'd I just hold back and A+B (mash it if I'm in the air to try to tech as soon as possible) to get up a barrier guard in the event they drop their combo. Good to know I've made the right choice though as I have a friend whose been a long time BB player (kind of the one who got me to finally try to play it competitively recently) who seemed to advocate mashing out of combos, but who has never mained Tsubaki.

j.236 is tricky. it can be used for weird crossup shenanigans, but is mostly a combo tool.

Okay, good to know.

It's noted in a footnote somewhere that most corner combos that end in a 22X knockdown can be finished with a 6C>236236C. The D version works similarly, but should really only be used if you need that extra bit of damage for the kill (and even then, only if you have more than 2 charges.) You should definitely feel free to end with 236236C when it's convenient, because it'll tack on another 800 damage. About the only thing I've found the D version to be good for outside of like, a Mugen finisher, is if you've got a midscreen combo going on (5BB>2BB>5CC) and you need just a bit more damage to get the kill, 236236D is much easier to connect from there - I think they reduced the range on 236236C, because I USED to be able to connect it off of 5CC easily, but now it seems to whiff a lot.

236236C has very nice invulnerability frames now, so makes a good reversal super if you're willing to take the risk, as hitting will also buy you time to charge. 236236D is...mostly just odd, though it does have the advantage of hitting ZERO frames after super freeze, so if your opponent isn't blocking when that flash happens, they're hit.

Okay, so C super off 6C in the corner, gotcha, other wise only use it like I've been using it, as a get off me tool against aggressive close range fighters, and pretty much never use the D version. All good tips to know. Thank you very much again!

[pktazn]

Does it have more invincible frames, more damage, or leave me in a better state on trade then her actual DP, 623A? I'm assuming you mean using it as a get off me move since you mention the better choice being a Counter Assualt if I have the meter but would you suggest it as an anti-air, or 2C still superior? Or compared to 623B?

I derped, I ment 623A haha. That was my bad I say 2C is the superior anti-air for anything though I could be biased because I like that move lol.

[Dusk Thanatos]

You'd better damn like 2C

Shit is like the best AA in the game