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Kujikawa

[CS2] Platinum vs. Rachel

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Before the ball begins to roll, please give a great big hug (or just thank) to Chazmobile for his obsession with Rachel. He basically did all my job for me in this thread.. kudos to him :toot:

Anyways....

According to pro JP player/s:

Platinum vs Rachel = 4.5 :vbang:

So, let's try and prove them wrong!

Punishes:

Pretty much the basic stuff, when shes out of wind, etc. Will expand on this since testing will be done today if I manage to play some Rachel mains in Player.

Anti-airing:

6A, 2C and J.A are all good for pulling Rachel out of the air. 6A being the fastest, and it pretty much beats all (Yet to be confirmed and tested) her air normals with the exception of J.2C - 2C seems to beat it though.

Zoning:

Of course, Rachel is indeed a zoner, unlike Platinum. To play this match full-screen is pretty suicidal... SO DON'T DO IT!

Instead, take advantage of Rachel's poor normals and range. You can pretty much 'zone' her out with your long ranged and high prioritized normals, 5B and J.C are prime examples. Also, using items such as: Cat Mallet, Bombs and Missiles can give you easy, free pressure; but more on that in the 'Item Strategy' section.

Strategy:

It is quite important that you start to digging into Rachel straight from the beginning of the match. Since most Rachel seem to start the match by immediately setting off into a winded A lobelia, which - on CH - can lead to good Rachel pressure, set-ups, etc. Instead, you'll need to be able to get used to the timing of the lobelia for a clean IB > Dash > Safe normal > Begin pressure. Play it safe during pressure, use bubbles, overheads, items, 6C>Sallow Moons, command grabs, tick throws, pogo stick, Mami Circular>RCs and delayed normals. Rachel's defense pretty much sucks, all apart from counter assaults and 2C which is totally unsafe, but still make sure you are very wary of it since it can lead to good Rachel oki and 4k+ damage with 50 heat. Try to keep the pressure to the ground unless your sure it won't be predicted. Rachel's 6A kicks ass unlike in CS2, so please don't do silly, random jump ins since you'll most likely eat one and maybe even 4k+ and epic oki with 50 heat.

If Rachel gets into you begins to apply epic pressure and oki, just try to stay calm and just wait for that opening, if you don't have a burst or a bat, it's ok, its not over. Just be wary of her new Gatling's: 5B>2B and J.2C>Land>X. Unless you plan IBs, try to keep blocking low (Her 4B overhead should be piss easy to see, and if you do, block high then immediately block low again) and keep a good eye out for her J.A shenanigans. However, this cannot always be preformed. Rachel requires wind to be able to use J.X moves in her pressure strings, so always keep an eye out for her gauge (In fact you should always keep an eye on it in general). 5B is usually when Rachel jump cancels into winded J.A which is a 12 frame overhead, so just stick to blocking high even when IBing. Ok, make sure, like I said before, you keep an eye out for Rachel's new 5B>2B Gatling's. In other words don't always block high after 5B connects, if 2B gets a hit in, it can lead to good oki (And the pressure starts all over again) or high damage corner combos. Another jump cancel-able move to keep in mind is 6B, try to block high after you see this connect, it's what most Rachel's do.

If you do find yourself across the screen with rods, George and pumpkin out, keep your cool and methodically make your way to wards her, the best time for you to get in is if she misses you with sword iris, but watch the hell out for pumpkin; it gives ridiculous frame advantage now and she can combo off of it relatively easily on CH. Also keep in mind Tempest Dahlia is really quite good now and the higher level not only resets her zoning, but also give her invisible mix-up if you block it. Now, onto the most important part of the match, the corner. If Rachel manages to get you into the corner, you're in a bad way, her corner lock down is very reminiscent of the CT days apart from getting guard crushed every now and then. Despite this, your gonna have a hard time getting out without a counter assault or bat, every hit that she gets on you in the corner leads back to good meter gain, damage and knockdown + oki. Now that she actually does damage, Baden Baden Lily is scary as fuck and if she starts off 5B, welcome to 5k, everything else is 3.7k-4.5k + oki.

On the plus side, once you get her in the corner, things begin to change around. Plat's pressure is ace and Rachel can't do f**k all about it. It's probably best to mix-up your combos/pressure with grabs/command grabs for extra damage/item restock. It's all about scoring high damage in the corner (I mentioned good pressure tools earlier). Once your in, try to go for the more high damaging combos and even resets, but only if your confident on hitting them - don't want to miss out on good damage, do you? Of course after all that hard work, Rachel may want to burst (Bitch...). From my experience people seem to burst after a connected Mami Circular or mash it after bubble, try to bait it if you possibly can.

Mystique Momo is largely helpful, bombs/missiles are great for getting in as always, and once you're in, don't fall for cat chair. Keep the pressure up, TK Swallow Moon > Barrier Guard when you think a cat chair is coming.

Item Strategy:

I've decided to split this up in sections:

Cat Mallet: A great tool against Rachel. Cuts through all of Rachel's zoning attempts and slices easily through her spacing tools. This can lead to free pressure and can be used in block strings/mix-ups. Upgraded version is even better at the above.

Bombs: Used to give an easy pressure string on block. Not really worth the heat to upgrade.

Missiles: Also used to give pressure strings on block. It also can be used to pile drive through Rachel's attempts to rush you down. Upgraded version is a bundle of fun!

Hammer: Brilliant for getting rid of those guard primers, even if Rachel hasn't burst in the current round, this is still a key tool because of her lack of primers (4). Of course its also used for EPIC HIGH DAMAGE COMBO, a.k.a the Hammer Loop. Oh, and it is also a free panty shot on block :cool: Upgraded version is not usually worth the heat.

Pan: Good for Mid-screen->Corner combos, and is used mostly in block strings/mix-ups. Haven't really found a use for upgraded version, and I'm not sure if there is one.

Bat: ... F**K OFF RACHEL PRESSURE! Great reversal and brilliant for getting out of Rachel's J.A shenanigans. Upgraded version is pretty much the same, not to sure if its really worth the heat unless Rachel is going to begin her stupidly amazing corner pressure.

Character Specific Details:

Combo-wise, I know nothing. Not really much to say yet since CS2 is still in its early days, but we all know that Rachel has a big hit-box, so we might find something.

Other Details:

It might be best to have visual guides as well. Take a look in the Platinum Video Thread or browse jourdal's or pktazn1213's Youtube channels for Japanese Platinum (PA) versus Rachel (RA) videos.

Lastly, you might want to spy on the vs. Platinumthread in the Rachel forums, it could give you an insight on what Rachel's ultimate goal is against you.

Once again thank Chaz for pretty much everything! Feel free to post ideas, thoughts, opinions, problems and my pathetic grammar (Yet to proof read, cba lol), etc.

Good luck and may the best loli win!..

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Mystic Momo is pretty damn good in this match-up, according to what Bohemian Polka told me. Just constantly throw shit at Rachel to keep her from air summoning, bait 2C, use Swallow Moon shenanigans, and LOCK HER DOWN IN THE CORNER. Don't give her any room to breathe!

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let's keep it to matchup discussion, guys.

Personally speaking, this matchup is more than likely 5.5 in Rachel's favor. Like Polka said, Mystique Momo is largely helpful, bombs/missiles are great for getting in as always, and once you're in, don't fall for cat chair. Keep the pressure up, TK Swallow Moon > Barrier Guard when you think a cat chair is coming.

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let's keep it to matchup discussion, guys.

Personally speaking, this matchup is more than likely 5.5 in Rachel's favor. Like Polka said, Mystique Momo is largely helpful, bombs/missiles are great for getting in as always, and once you're in, don't fall for cat chair. Keep the pressure up, TK Swallow Moon > Barrier Guard when you think a cat chair is coming.

Updated.

(Yee, sorry.

Tbh, it's pretty much who gets who in the corner and it depends on what items you get, etc, etc.

Added what you said about Mystique Momo.

Btw, do you think the write up is getting too long? I'm thinking of shortening it.)

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let's keep it to matchup discussion, guys.

Personally speaking, this matchup is more than likely 5.5 in Rachel's favor. Like Polka said, Mystique Momo is largely helpful, bombs/missiles are great for getting in as always, and once you're in, don't fall for cat chair. Keep the pressure up, TK Swallow Moon > Barrier Guard when you think a cat chair is coming.

Personally ... i hate the bombs here ... feels like she was never on the right range to get hit by the bombs, unless u knock her down first, Cat Flail is more useful to punish reckless summon and keep the game at neutral

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lol sorry cirno. i was just fooling around.

well anyway, i don't really know where to start with hime-sama(mina tepes)

madam rachel. for now, i'm going to write what i know because i'm focusing on ragna more than anything.

because of her wind, it makes things pretty unstable for me. all i know is, our goal is to get her in the corner so we can have fun which is easier said than done. i don't quite remember but Bat beats trades with her 2c. she's airborne often so don't be afraid to stick out the 6a. try not to tech forward or backward too much if she has those staff traps set. again, do not be so reckless, 2c is a great move with amazing priority. in terms on approaching, i'd say don't go airborne all of the time because of her wind drive will screw things up for you.

that's all i have for now, i'm going to come back to this topic and make a full insight once i fight more rachels. every rachel i've played is just a big fat what the hell do i do? >_<

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Missiles from full-screen make this match easier too. If the Rachel is a heavy zoner, use a missile to cover your approach for lobelias, It'll render them useless, and use 16T Hammer to stop her from full-screen if she's just standing there spamming. eventually,she'll jump and that's when you'll get a chance to Mystique Momo her out of the air and continue your assault.

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This matchup feels so dependent on what item I start with...When cornered by Rachel with a useless item, at what point in her string do I give up and start mashing, and what move should I be mashing? As of now I just try to IB safely and Counter Assault when I get enough meter.

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Don't mash and just be patient. I see most Rachels do 5B >2B>5B>2B , 3C or 5B > (winded instant overhead) j.A > etc. All of her blockstrings are relatively easy to block, her 4B is really slow and goes nowhere without wind and her instant overheads assisted by wind. If you really are having a hard time dealing with her pressure, use Counter Assault and regain your momentum. If you don't like the current item you start out with, just Mystic Momo it, It's really good against Rachel no lie, you use it right and you can condition Rachel to be scared of Air Summoning which limits her rushdown potential by quite a lot.

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^To add to that, if Rachel is jump 2Ding in pressure and you don't see any attack, instantly switch to blocking low (and react to 4B if she tries that after jump 2D.)

During Rachel's 5CC frog oki, Rachel can run up throw you (before frog actually starts up) while you're distracted waiting for the mixup. In addition, CA's are not recommended during frog block stun as they are extremely easy to bait.

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^To add to that, if Rachel is jump 2Ding in pressure and you don't see any attack, instantly switch to blocking low (and react to 4B if she tries that after jump 2D.)

During Rachel's 5CC frog oki, Rachel can run up throw you (before frog actually starts up) while you're distracted waiting for the mixup. In addition, CA's are not recommended during frog block stun as they are extremely easy to bait.

1. If you see rachel jump 2ding and it's empty you can actually jump out, you don't have to wait and block on a jump, 2C also works on occasion as well since its a clutch anti air and can go under quite a few attacks, but alas 2C is not safe on block and your best routes are even more unsafe.

2. If you see Rachel using any type of mix up while your blocking frog then CA since its more than likely hit her before she can recover.

just want to chime in since I fought a lot of Rachel with Plat.

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1. If you see rachel jump 2ding and it's empty you can actually jump out, you don't have to wait and block on a jump, 2C also works on occasion as well since its a clutch anti air and can go under quite a few attacks, but alas 2C is not safe on block and your best routes are even more unsafe.

2. If you see Rachel using any type of mix up while your blocking frog then CA since its more than likely hit her before she can recover.

just want to chime in since I fought a lot of Rachel with Plat.

@2: Rachel's can bait this by using 5B or 2B>5B and jump cancelling into block. Just something worth noting. If she's doing something she can't jump cancel, then yes, CA by all means, but don't do it to 5B or the typical a-move spam.

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Hmm I just wait for 2B/5B start up when I CA when blocking the frog so I was never successfully punished for CA'ing in that situation.

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1. If you see rachel jump 2ding and it's empty you can actually jump out, you don't have to wait and block on a jump, 2C also works on occasion as well since its a clutch anti air and can go under quite a few attacks, but alas 2C is not safe on block and your best routes are even more unsafe.

Yes I realize this, but what I said might still be applicable if you're blocking the frog. (The jump 2D mixup thing.)

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Yes I realize this, but what I said might still be applicable if you're blocking the frog. (The jump 2D mixup thing.)

That will always be applicable.

Frog is annoying I normally spend my time trying to find ways to make it go to waste.

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Hmm I just wait for 2B/5B start up when I CA when blocking the frog so I was never successfully punished for CA'ing in that situation.

Oh, true. Rachel can't do anything if you CA the startup, haha.

Also, I'll check later, but Rachel can probably do an aerial throw whiff during an empty 2D jump to catch you jumping out/chicken blocking. Of course you can break the throw, though.

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be careful of her 4B, it's an overhead and can be cancelled into 2B(true mixup) even if you IB her 4B you can't punish her even with bat so it's best that you wait it out.

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be careful of her 4B, it's an overhead and can be cancelled into 2B(true mixup) even if you IB her 4B you can't punish her even with bat so it's best that you wait it out.

Unless she has pumpkin out or you're blocking frog, you can just poke her out of 4b startup with 5a or something.

edit:

Okay, tested the empty 2D air throw. It doesn't work for Rachel. The best she gets is a purple throw :v:.

So it's basically safe to hold up-back if you see Rachel go for a jump mixup. The worst that happens (unless you don't barrier in the air) is she keeps you locked down with aerial moves. Otherwise you'll jump out and block whatever, or you get purple grabbed.

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be careful of her 4B, it's an overhead and can be cancelled into 2B(true mixup) even if you IB her 4B you can't punish her even with bat so it's best that you wait it out.

Being careful of her overhead isn't that necessary since its really slow and you should be blocking those anyways.

The threat are winded overheads and the fact she can do 4B>2B 2 times in the same string.

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