[VS] Lilith: Succubus

[Mr. Kimura]

Lilith

Beginners Guide

0 - Introduction

1 - Character Evaluation

2- Legend

3 - Input

4 - Pros

5 - Cons

6 - Styles

Zoning

Pit bull

Turtle

7 – Basics

Punish

Anti- Air

Pokes

Air-Game

8 - Normals

9 - Specials

10 - Supers

11- Mix-ups

12 - Combo's

13 - Frame traps & Tick throws

14 - Conclusion

Lilith Beginner Guide

- 0 - Introduction

Since we have to go-ahead to make character specific threads for characters, I decided to take the opportunity to gather information on the character. This will server as the starter, combo, and mix-up thread. For the most part I'm just gathering info from various sources, and putting them into one place.

Get GGPO, get it setup so you can play (unless you have an offline scene).

New to Vampire Savior? Learn the general mechanics of the game here.

Another beginner tutorial has been reposted on Dustoop recently here.

Then, move on to the Lilith specific page here. Though, eventually most of the info there will be in this post.

- 1 - Character Evaluation

Lilith is weak character, and an obvious Morrigan clone. She has a projectile and a Dragon Punch, but unlike Morrigan, she has a standard ground dash, and no airdash. She has no ground overhead and weak mixups, and her anti air game is weak. She also has a lacking defense. However her strength lies in her frame advantage normals and her Luminous Illusion (her Raging Demon attack).

- 2 - Legend

The standard layout for an arcade stick is the Street Fighter setup, as follows:

LP MP HP

LK MK HK

Terms may also be found as follows:

Jab- LP

Strong - MP

Fierce - HP

Short - LP

Forward - MP

Roundhouse - HK

Also, note that c. before the annotation means crouching, and d. before annotation means dashing.

- 3 - Input

LI: There are several ways to do so.You will see many combos that involve comboing into it. Here's an easy example:

c.LP, c.LK, LI

Knowing the input for LI (LP, LP, forward, LK, HP), you must buffer the input during c.LP, c.LK. How do you ask? Its a little tricky, but nothing you can't handle. If you do c.LP fast enough to where the first one hits and the next one doesn't come out, immediately move from down to down-forward and hit LK, then HP. This should work for you, if not, practice.

LI = lp, lp, direction Lilith is facing, lk, hp.

- It is NOT lp, lp, towards, lk, hp. If you just jump/dash over the opponents y-axis. You will actually input lp, lp away, lk, hp. This means the directional input is dependant on the direction Morrigan's sprite is facing.

- It is NOT lp, lp direction Lilith is facing + lk, hp.

- You have 9frames leniency between every button input, NOT DIRECTIONS.

- You cannot combine inputs.

- You can add extra inputs.

- Button priority is weak to fierce. This coupled with the rules of Magic series (increasing hits only), limits simultaneous button presses to buffer DI. Example: You magic chain lp, lk, cr.mk, press hp&lp at the same time = NOTHING COMES OUT. Button priority says you tried to chain cr.mk, lp. This doesn't comply with the rules of Magic series. This sucks b/c it would have been an easy way to combo into cr.hp and already buffer the first lp of LI. =/

- Lastly, you can't do easy mode lp+lk, lp+lk, direction Lilith is facing, lp+lk, hp. This activates Dark force. =(

- You can stagger inputs and add extra for comfort. A few corner only examples to combo into DI are (cr.lk, cr.mp, cr.mk, cr.hp~lp, lp, direction Lilith is facing~lk~hp) or (cr.lk, cr.mp, cr.mk, cr.hp~lp, cr.hp~lp, direction Morrigan is facing~lk~hp)

TIPS FOR COMBOING INTO DARKNESS ILLUSION by Buktooth

----------------------------------------

Kinda like a preface to the DI combo section, if you can't do DI combos, you

really shouldn't be using Morrigan. She's exponentially less threatening

without the ability of overhead/cross up into DI.

-Normal moves (and chains!) can be canceled into DI-type command moves at ANY

TIME. Even before and after the normal buffering window of the move. If the DI

isn't coming out at all in your combo, that just means you didn't input the

DI command correctly.

-If you access to the home version (and I'm pretty sure 99.9% of people reading

this guide do) turn on the key display in training mode. The most common errors

in the DI input occur at the point between the jabs and the short; the part

where you hit towards on the stick. People usually hit short BEFORE they hit

towards on the stick, or they hit towards and short at the same time. That

doesn't work. You have to hit towards on the stick (after the jab jab) THEN hit

the short button.

-If you find yourself creeping back to the bad habit of hitting towards on the

stick at the wrong time, try hitting towards a lot harder than you normally

would. It sounds kinda dumb, but it does work for a lot of people.

-The second most common error is that people don't press jab twice like they

should. It doesn't sound like a likely error to make, but people trying to get

the DI out as fast as they can sometimes don't let the button go up completely

before pressing the second jab. The result is they press jab again when the

button is still down, giving you one jab instead of two. If you're doing this

(check the key display!) try hitting the individual jabs harder. Heh. Force

solves everything.

-If you're STILL having problems getting the DI to come out at all during a

combo, you might be trying to do it too fast. Try slowing it down a bit (or

even a lot) and see if you have any success.

-If you are successfully getting the DI to come out, but can't consistently do

it fast enough to be a combo you should definitely stick to 2 hit chains. 2 hit

chains give you a lot more time to input the motion and leave your opponent

closer to you so that the DI reaches them faster.

How do 2 hit chains give you more time to buffer? You can input a 2 hit chain

as fast as you can and the second hit will always come out, giving you a good

amount of time to free up your hand for the DI command.

-Hit jabs with your index finger, short with your thumb, and fierce with your

ring finger. People who try to do the whole thing with their index finger

almost never get it fast enough.

-Cliched as it might sound, practice! It took me a few training mode sessions

to iron out all my bad habits and get a success rate of better than 9/10. The

good thing is, once you can do it consistently you generally don't forget how.

I haven't really had to maintain my combo ability with further training

sessions that much.

Kara-Fireball: 236hk~any punch. Also applicable in the air. Great for meter building.

- 4 - Pros

Plus frame normals, Luminous Illusion.

- 5 - Cons

Bad anti air, defense, and mixup game.

- 6 - Styles

Zoning - good spacing with s.MP or s.MK, s.HP is a pretty good normal from far away despite not being cancelable. 236P is your projectile, use it.

Pit Bull -

This is what you should be doing. Use your dash to get in, abuse your + frame normals and tick throws, and combo to Luminous Illusion.

Turtle -

- Be sure to whore out TK J.lp projectile. 2369lp. This is GODLIKE. allows pursuit on aerial hit, allows link on grounded hit. Great Anti air too.

- 7 - Basics

Punish

If you are committing yourself to Lilith you can start with learning the proper ways to punish into their super. (lp, lp, Direction your character is facing, lk, hp) Raging Demon basically. Morrigan's is called Dimensional Illusion, DI. Lilith's is luminous Illusion LI. You have 9 frames to input between each button EXCLUDING DIRECTIONS,

Punish examples include:

-cr.lk, ©hk, Super : A great punish with a huge window to input the Super

-cr.lk, cr.mp, cr.mk, cr.hp, Super :Corner only combo, very damaging

Anti- Air

Without Meter:

Chicken Block, J.hp

lp -risky n situational. Like grounded UB's.

cr.mp- spacing specific

j.mk

623lp

2369lp

With Meter:

7+lp, air block, LI

37+lp, air block, LI

This is amazing. Her best AA. You use the jump startup frames to hide the first input of lp. Nothings Comes out! You have to block and begin inputting the remainder of the LI within 9frames. That's why this only works when you chicken block extremely low to the ground. (Unless you superjump+lp). There's barely enough hit stop to buffer the rest of the LI. But there is enough, LI is active in 4frames. Also, b/c you air blocked you had no block stun to accommodate for. =) This is much more damaging than a conventional AA b/c it fully connects & gurantees Pursuit + ground chasing.

Pokes

Air-Game

- 8 - Normals

From the Wiki:

LP - [ Startup: 5 | Hit:+6 | Block:+5 (normal)] [ Startup: 4 | Hit:+7 | Block:+6 (dashing)]

Ear poke. Can whiff on crouchers. Gains a renda bonus. Primarily used for dash cancelling or guard breaking rather than as an actual threat.

n.LP - [ Startup: 5 | Hit:+6 | Block:+5 | Renda: H:+9 B:+8 (normal) ] [ Startup: 4 | Hit:+7 | Block:+6 (dashing)]

Light Chop. Similar to far LP despite a different appearance.

MP - [ Startup: 8 | Hit:+4 | Block:+3 (normal) ] [ Startup: 7 | Hit:+5 | Block:+4 (dashing)]

Side Chop. Good long hitbox, cancelable, and excellent frame advantage on hit/block make this rather ideal for dash pressure and general midrange poking. Your basic go-to move when at a distance.

n.MP - [ Startup: 6 | Hit:-5 | Block:-6 (normal) ] [ Startup: 5 | Hit:-4 | Block:-5 (dashing)]

Drill. Nearly worthless, try to avoid using this. Whiffs on crouchers, bad anti air. No frame advantage. It is cancelable, but during a dash its not unless you fully intend to LI cancel it.

HP - [ Startup: 9 | Hit:-1 | Block:-2 (normal) ] [ Startup: 8 | Hit:-0 | Block:-1 (dashing)]

Needles. Pretty good hitbox, lots of active frames and a good meaty. Good to buffer LI with. Can also slide with it during a dash.

n.HP - [ Startup: 9 | Hit:+3 | Block:+2 (normal) ] [ Startup: 8 | Hit:+4 | Block:+3 (dashing)]

Upper Spikes. If you whiff a throw and get this, no big deal. Has good frame advantage. Not cancelable, but moves her forward to make counter pokes whiff, and verical reach can catch jump outs.

LK - [ Startup: 6 | Hit:+5 | Block:+4 | Renda: H:+8 B:+7 (normal) ] [ Startup: 5 | Hit:+6 | Block:+5 (dashing)]

Shin kick. Lower hitbox than LP which makes it more commonly used as a dash attack than LP. In general, a pretty good light attack, best if spaced to max range or chained/linked into itself. Looks the same as the close version, which isn't as good.

n.LK - [ Startup: 6 | Hit:+3 | Block:+2 | Renda: H:+6 B:+5 (normal) ] [ Startup: 5 | Hit:+4 | Block:+3 (dashing)]

Identical in appearance to LK, except that the frame advantage on the close version is only about half as good as the far version or LP. Be that as it may, it basically has the same uses.

MK - [ Startup: 6 | Hit:+2 | Block:+1 (normal) ] [ Startup: 5 | Hit:+3 | Block:+2 (dashing) ]

Boot. Good hitbox. Not cancelable, and the frame advantage off it is not quite as good as far MP. The dash version makes a pretty good tick throw setup when alternated with staggers. Better to use it sometimes due to close MP not being very good.

HK - [ Startup: 20 | Hit:-5 | Block:-6 (normal) ] [ Startup: 19 | Hit:-4 | Block:-5 (dashing)]

Scythe. Despite it's very slow startup and appearance this move is not an overhead. Which basically makes it pretty worthless. You can sometimes use it as an anti-air, or to set up a frametrap LI-cancel gimmick, but in general you won't be using this move much (if at all).

n.HK - [ Startup: 8 | Hit:-5 | Block:-6 (normal) ] [ Startup: 7 | Hit:-4 | Block:-5 (dashing)]

Spinner. Multi-hit, it makes for a good hit-confirm into LI, since you have plenty of time to both buffer the input and confirm the hit. Uncancellable and disadvantageous on hit/block, so ideally you would cancel to LI regardless.

c.LP [ Startup: 4 | Hit:+8 | Block:+7 | Renda: H:+11 B:+10 ]

Jab. High blockable. Despite being high blockable this is one of Lilith's essential moves due to it having the highest frame advantage and renda bonus out of her moveset. It's also one of the ways she can confirm into LI, as chaining or linking crouching jabs into themselves begins the LI input. Generally a good way to reset/start dash pressure due to it having extremely good frame advantage.

c.MP - [ Startup: 6 | Hit:+2 | Block:+1 ]

Wing Blades. Kind of a relatively crappy move. Her c.MK has better range, faster startup, and much better advantage. Fortunately it's not disadvantageous and it's cancelable, but for the most part she has other moves that do everything it does but better.

c.HP - [ Startup: 9 | Hit:-2 | Block: -3 ]

Wing Whip. One of Lilith's essential moves for comboing LI. Typically chained into and then cmd-super canceled into LI. It's unfortunately not frame advantageous and not cancelable, but it's also not particularly punishable. It's only mildly useful as a poke though, typically players only use it during chains.

c.LK - [ Startup: 4 | Hit:+6 | Block:+5 | Renda: H:+9 B:+8 ]

Low Short. Hits low, cancelable, good frame advantage. A typical low short. Not as advantageous as c.LP, but still pretty good and also gains a renda bonus.

c.MK - [ Startup: 4 | Hit:-2 | Block:-3 ]

Low Forward. Hits low, cancelable, decent frame advantage. It's a nice poke, and is useful during dash rushdown for cancelling into Soul Flash pressure or simply to combo into Soul Flash or Merry Turn. The best part about this move though is the disturbingly fast startup, as it shares the same startup speed as c.LP and c.LK at four frames. Definitely the move of choice for special cancels.

c.HK - [ Startup: 14 | Hit: Knockdown | Block:-20 ]

Scythe Slide. Hits low, sweeps. This move is pretty horrible. Only use it when you're able to hitconfirm it off a normal chain. About the only other time you'd want to use this is if you were going to try a gimmicky blocked c.HK into LI frametrap.

j.LP - [ Startup: 5 ]

Needle. Typical jumping jab. Her fastest startup for a jumping attack. Sometimes used together with j.LK to confirm into LI.

j.MP - [ Startup: 6 ]

Blades. Decent j.MP. The hitbox extends downwards somewhat which is good for startup a jumpin airchain, such as j.MP j.MK.

j.HP - [ Startup: 7 ]

Spinning Rims. Deceptive hitbox. The sprite looks like it hits all around her, but it does not. Usable as a crossup against wide characters, though not as much crossup potential as j.MK. A general purpose air-to-air or air-to-ground move. Possibly her best jumping attack, though j.LP and j.MK are her go-to moves in the air.

j.LK - [ Startup: 6 ]

Knee. Typical jumping short. Useful in air battles or after chicken blocking. Also useful to stuff some anti-airs.

j.MK - [ Startup: 6 ]

Leg Thrust. Has crossup potential. May be better as a crossup than j.HP in some regards. Also useful in air-to-air battles since it extends quite a ways forwards. Pretty good after airblocking as well since the startup is quite fast and the reach is good.

j.HK - [ Startup: 9 ]

Scythe Swing. Great range. Typically used at max range when everything else would miss. This is pretty good for beating anti-airs when spaced properly since the hitbox is so good at max range. Not very good in air-to-air battles though since the startup is slow. Vertical jumping HK makes a pretty good poke or zoning tool simply because of the range and hitbox. Still, it's not something that is used frequently, but rather just when the situation calls for it.

- 9 - Specials

Super Jump (sj) - 2 7/8/9:

A high jump. This will cause Lilith to jump very high and very far. In addition, if she crosses over the opponent she will automatically turn around in the air allowing you to attack towards the opponent, unlike a normal jump

Soul Flash (fireball) – 236P (air):

Lilith's most useful special move by far. A little bat ball projectile that floats a short distance before disappearing. The interesting thing about this move is that it causes a special hit-reel which makes it significantly better on hit than on block. Additionally, the attack strength used causes a drastic change in the speed in which the projectile moves. The Jab version is particularly useful for zoning and rushdown pressure, while the HP version is highly comboable due to it's speed. Because it's also possible to perform in the air it's rather handy for midrange, since being in the air means you're less prone to being comboed during the recovery than if you were on the ground. Because of this, 2369LP is a rather staple Lilith poke.

* (LP Version): The strength of this move is the fact that it moves slow. It's very good mid range as it provides a bit of a shield which Lilith can use to discourage jump-ins and also to set up a wall that she can move forward behind, allowing her to push her way towards the opponent by force. Additionally, although the frame advantage is +2/-8 on hit/block, the projectile moves slow and that advantage assumes you are point blank, so for every frame that it takes to reach the opponent a frame is added to the advantage of the move. Because the active frames for the LP is 35F that makes the advantage range anywhere between +2/-8 to +37/+27

* (MP Version): Moves faster, 13 active frames. Range becomes +2/-8 to +15/+5. Pretty good if spaced perfectly or timed perfectly on a meaty.

* (HP Version): Moves extremely fast, 6 active frames. Range becomes +2/-8 to +8/-2. Mostly useful to combo from max range.

* (ES Version): Moves at medium speed and travels further, 60 active frames, also hits three times. This might have been her most useful version if it didn't hit three times, making it easymode tech/GC bait. Though, since it's autonomous of her it can still be used to pressure/mixup the opponent if they have a terrible GC and/or suck at teching. With 60 active frames and a longer travel distance it's certainly the most useful for midrange zoning.

Shining Blade (DP) – 623P (GC):

An uppercut. Unfortunately for Lilith, the startup on all of her normal versions is 7F while the invulnerability duration is 7F, which makes it prone to losing or trading with very meaty or late attacks. It's also air blockable as soon as she leaves the ground. Thus, it's not horrifically bad as an uppercut but it's also not particularly good. Perhaps the worst aspect to it though is that the hitbox is relatively high for a DP, which also makes it prone to whiffing very small crouching characters like Q-Bee. The landing recovery once touching the ground is 4F, making it possible to punish with a ground combo.

* (LP Version): Short uppercut.

* (MP Version): Medium uppercut.

* (HP Version): Far/high uppercut.

* (ES Version): This version hits three times and has much better invulnerability duration compared to the startup. The startup is faster than the normal versions at 5F (instead of 7) and the invulnerability duration is longer at 10F (instead of 7) so unlike the normal versions this one can actually be used as a reversal and is much less prone to losing/trading. The downside to this is that Lilith will only hit once then teleport back to the ground to hit again, until all three hits are executed, which sometimes makes it prone to whiffing opponents on the second or third hit in certain situations. Also because the whole animation is very long and telegraphed, it's ridiculously easy to punish or block/whiff.

* (GC Version): Identical to her normal/ES versions. Pretty good as a GC, as most DP-Type GC's are, though it still suffers from the same issues as the non-GC versions. Use sparingly.

Merry Turn – 214K:

Lilith's hurricane kick wanna-be. A single hit spin move that takes her into the air. Unfortunately the recovery on this makes it not very useful unless you can hit confirm it. The only reason to use it is for a knockdown.

* (LK Version): Short range, fastest startup, best recovery, though still very easily punishable on block/whiff.

* (MK Version): Medium range, slower startup, worse recovery.

* (HK Version): Far range, slowest startup, worst recovery.

* (ES Version): This version hits four times and has the same startup speed as the HK version. Despite it also having a good distance the recovery is actually better than the MK and HK versions, but still just as bad as the LK version (highly punishable on block).

Mystic Arrow (throw) - 624P:

This is very atypical of a normal command throw in the sense that Lilith will hop towards the opponent before attempting the grab, which drastically limits it's use. Button strength determines the distance she hops. Because of the startup this move is extremely rarely used. If she grabs she will shoot the opponent across the screen behind her.

* (LP Version): Short hop. Best version to cancel into at point blank.

* (MP Version): Medium hop. Can be used off far cancelable normals at max range.

* (HP Version): Long hop. Not particularly useful.

* (ES Version): Very long hop. This version will also wallslam the opponent which will allow for a followup juggle of some kind.

- 10 - Supers

Splendor Love (bats) - 623KK:

This has no invulnerability frames despite the motion and appearance. As far as supers go this one's not very useful. The long recovery and poor startup make it basically worthless outside of combos, especially due to the complete lack of invincibility. The only reason to use it outside of a combo is just to see Lilith naked. However, the damage is pretty decent inside combos (a tiny bit more damage than LI) and it's hit confirmable off a link into c.MK. Still, most Lilith players rather attempt a LI instead of S.Love so it's very rarely used.

Luminous Illusion (raging demon) - LP, LP, 6, LK, HP (air):

Lilith's most useful super, assuming you can execute it well. Because it's a cmd super it's comboability is high. The damage is also good and it's recovery on whiff is basically non-existent (actually 1F). Even though there is some punishable recovery on block it's not especially easy to punish it. Generally speaking this is the move you want to practice doing, because it's one of Lilith's strongest assets as a use any-time any-where kind of move. The 4F startup on this move makes it an excellent point-blank punish as well.

Gloomy Puppet Show (dance) - 426KK:

One of the few supers in the game that costs two stocks. Damage is dependent on how well the Lilith player inputs the attack inputs shown during the dance. Pretty worthless as a super, especially due to how much it costs and it's ridiculously slow startup. If the damage was actually worth it it might be something to use occasionally, but since it's not worth it this move hardly gets any use. One esoteric gimmick is to first use Lilith's Mimic Doll Dark Force then do the Puppet Show, since the doll will mimic the hat toss it can catch people unaware.

[Mr. Kimura]

Lilith Beginner Guide Continued

- 11 - Combos

Apart from the wiki, here's some on SRK (though these focus on DI, which you should practice and try hard to land):

c.LP>c.LK>LI

c.LK>c.MP>c.MK>c.HP>LI

c.LK>s.MK>LI

c.LK>c.MP>c.MK>c.HK - Meterless combo.

d.HP>LI

j.HP>LI

d. close LP>c.LP>c.LK>LI

d.close LP>c.LK>c.MP>c.MK>c.HP>LI - Near corner.

Jump in strings: empty; LP MK; HP HK (on tall characters); HP; MK HP

Basic chains>DI variations-

-s/c.LK>s/c.MK>LI

a) -s/c.K>s/c.MK>c.SP>LII

b).- s/c.LK>s/c.MP>s/c.MK>LI

c)- s/c.LK>s/c.MP s/c.MK>c.SP>LI

d) - s.MP>c.SP>LI

-d.LP>close LP>groundchain>LI

-d.LK>close LK>close MK>Soul Flash/Merry Turn/LI

-d.MP>close MK>Soul Flash/Merry Turn

- ES Mystic Arrow>Gloomy Puppet Show/LI

*They bounce off the wall, then get hit by the hat.

-DF-ES Soulflash, /\, j.hp, [groundcombo->DI]/[ES Shining Blade, Splendor Love]

A solid LI confirm and why its good from Kyle: with frame data

cr.lk, +cr.lp, cr.lk, LI.

This is great for MANY reasons.

Frame Data;

cr.lp

Startup= 4

Hit Advantage = +8

Guard Advantage = +7

Renda Bonus = (+11)

cr.lk

Startup= 4

Hit Advantage = +6

Guard Advantage = +5

Renda Bonus = (+9)

Let's break down the combo:

cr.lk, +cr.lp, cr.lk, LI.

cr.lk link cr.lp is a 2frame link. If it's blocked Lilith is left at (+6). This set's up for a frametrap/throw

cr.lp chains to cr.lk.

cr.lk command cancels into LI. If it's blocked Lilith is left at (+5). This set's up for a frametrap/throw

Advantages are the inputs & LI confirm.

cr.lk, cr.lp~lp, downforward, cr.lk, XX CONFIRM LI W/ HP.

The combo does most of the LI super for you. lp, lp, towards, short, CONFIRM.

Note: This also works exactly the same off of dashing.lk. The frame data is identical to cr.lk

An alternative is this combo:

cr.lk, +cr.lp, +cr.lk, LI.

cr.lk link cr.lp is a 2frame link. If it's blocked Lilith is left at (+6). This set's up for a frametrap/throw

cr.lp link to cr.lk is a 4frame link. W/ a Renda Bonus of (+9) If it's blocked Lilith is left at (+5). This set's up for a frametrap/throw

cr.lk command cancels into LI. You also have a (+2) renda bonus to cancel into LI later (slower). If it's blocked Lilith is left at (+5). This set's up for a frametrap/throw

Advantages are the inputs & LI confirm.

- cr.lk, +cr.lp~lp, downforward, +cr.lk, XX CONFIRM LI W/ HP.

- The combo does most of the LI super for you. lp, lp, towards, short, CONFIRM.

- No Chains = Harder for opponent to tech-hit & Guard Cancel.

A great frametrap which beats tech hits & progresses Lilith towards is cr.lp, dashing.lk. She can link off of the dashing.lk into the setup mentioned above.

Lastly, Lilith OWNS Anakaris. because of her string:

(cr.lp, dashing.lp) xn

by pressuring this, a few thins to note:

- Anakaris cannot Tech hit

- Anak's Guard Cancel cost 1-meter.

- This blocksun is overlapped w/ a slight stagger = Hard as hell to guard cancel against

- lp link cr.lp is a 1frame link. This 1frame keeps Anak in blockstun, By staggering up to 4 frames, Anak will always get counter-hit b/c his quickest moves is 5 frames.

- cr.lp frame trap dashing.lp is a xframe link, BUT Anak's fastest move is 5frames. If done right, he will always get counter-hit.

- When Anak get's counter-hit, dashing.lp leaves Lilith@(+6). This means Lilith can link cr.lp or cr.lk w/ a 2frame link. These can link/confirm into LI. read above.

Morrigan cannot do this stuff.

her dash startup is longer

her cr.lp is two hits. window is too long to 9frame buffer DI inputs.

- 12 - Mixups

Correct Ground Chasing

-Which way cr.lk: Walk back and forth between their sprite as they wake up. You can force either side. This chain/combos into anything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=22m27s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=26m00s

- If you guess their ground chase correctly Lilith can 8jump and descend with j.lk. This hella advantagous, and has a hitbox on both sides. Very very ambiguous crossups which the Lilith player can be on any side they choose. This is best when opponent is in the corner. You can space this just right to where, the j.lk hits either side IF THEY ROLL OUT OF THE CORNER. If they didn't roll out of the corner, You can do a j.hk to reach them in the corner and maintain frame advantage. Enough to keep a mix-up going.

corner knockdown: walk to sweet spot, j.lp (whiff), recovery, * Which way did they ground roll?

Out of corner = j.lk. Huge frame advantage, which-way scenario, combo or tick throw

in corner= j.hk. be sure to land durign the first few active frames* Did it hit?

Yes = dashing mk, LI.

No = Dashing lk or dashing mk or tk ES fireball or ES command throw.

Perfect Jump-ins

- Every character has a 50/50 mix-up on jump in scenarios. The idea is you throw the first air normal at the opponent shoulders, such that: if they were crouching, they will get hit by the last active frames of the attack. If they were standing: You are still high enough in the air to have the option to chain into another air normal or land and go low or land and throw. Lilith's J.hp is soo good she can set this up more often than other characters,. So, jump-in with J.hp and time it just right so you can still chain to j.hk or whatever mixup route you chosse.

Late pursuit mixups

Every character (except victor) has this, but some are more useful than others. This is bevause people like Lilith and Anak can still maintain ground chases after they hit with a pursuit. But, this is still an option. After a move which has knockdown properties (fireball vs aerial opponent, LI, DP, Command throw, cr.hk etc.) you can pursuit late such that it whiffs and acts more like a "which-way" teleport. You should always have enough frames to throw out a meaty cr.lk regardless of which side you land on. The disadvantage to this is the timeing. a few things to note:

- Every character has different wakeup/ground chasing times. When you "Late pursuit" is dependant on which character you're fighting and which ground roll they are committing to.

- Some character has smaller windows between their options. Meaning you have less of a guessing game. EXample: Victor wakesup within 2frames of any roll. You can always get a good late pursuit setup in Victor regardless of which ground roll b/c he always gets up about the same time. Other character you hav eto commit to a timing which COULD be the wrong one.

-Pursuit input is pressing 8hk or 8hp or 8mp or 8mk. (I believe Anakaris wil have to use 7+attack or 9+attack)

-Best practical input is to piano 8hk~hp~mp. This gives you (3) chances of getting the input correctly.

- 13 - Tick Throws/ Frame Traps

-Lilith throws LOTS. It's the pinnacle to her "mix-ups" which are mostly throws w/ hp or frame trap confirms into LI. The reason this is effective is because she still get's to ground chase after her pursuit which allways hits. Her walk speed is good enough to facilitate numerous throws.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=53m16s

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=53m24s

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=53m30s

-Those who can not duck under her s.LP are: Demitri, Victo,r Anak, Bishamon, and Jedah. Your s.LP is where all your plus frames are, so its good to know this. Use it for stuff like st.lp, LINK cr.lp, dashing lp etc.

- 14 - Conclusion

Shoutouts to Kyle, and all the people who contributed to the info in the guide, as it is quite a patchjob of various sources. Remember Lilith is low tier, but you can still win. Learn to love her.

[Kyle]

Lilith Advanced Guide

0 - Introduction

Let's kick this up a notch. Some advanced tactics/scenarios.

1- LI Cancels

Hit confirming and buffering LI's during frame traps. Frame traps are VERY VERY important to Lilith's games. This is because her mix-ups are minimal.. She is lower tier b/c of this. You will basically be throwing your opponent to death until they finally attempt to counter-poke or jump out of your frame advantage. You need to turn that scenario into a confirmable LI! when played properly, this character has to condition her opponents to attack. She does this by frame trapping with mk & lk. These move are + frames on block. You can do ~4 in a row as a frame trap, if your opponent doesn't block or perfectly apply additional defensive techniques, they will get hit. You should be able to turn this poke into a super. Here's the input.

mk~lp~lp~towards* Did it hit?

Yes: lk~hp = Super

No: Repeat.

A little busier, but I prefer it better:

mk~lp~mk~lp~towards* Did it hit?

Yes: lk~hp = Super

No: Repeat.

The next confirmable LI which we need to master is the "did I punish propperly: LI?"

The idea is to use your punish combo as cr.lk, mk, LI. I preached earlier about cr.lk, ©hk, LI. But, the ©hk doesn't leave you in frame advantage to let you keep an offense IF the normals were blocked. Alternatively, cr.lk, mk, LI: can be confirmed after the mk and still left in an advantageous situation.

Input = cr.lk, mk~lp, lp~direction Morrigan is facing* Did it hit?

Yes: lk~hp = Super

No: Frame trap/throw/ possibly a mixup scenario.

2- Unique Succubus!

- Lilith has a property on her SuperJump, if she uses a move after crossing the opponents y-axis. the sprite will autocorrect. This makes great half screen crossups. Get 1/2 screen, do a superjump lp~lp (whiffs and causes proximity block), cross opponents y-axis, direction lilith is facing~lk~hp. This will make j.lk crossup and combo into LI. This entire mixups works bext once they eatten a few of your j.hp's and learn to respect you in the air.

- Lilith has (3) UB's. The first is detailed out when beating chicken blocking. Here's the second and third scenario.

Opponent in corner gets knocked down, Lilith does a TK ES Fireball, Opponent wakes up into the fireball blocking high. They are stuck in a standing block state for the duration of the fireball. Lilith gets UB low hit. Whatever combo you want. Ideally it's cr.mk, cr.hp, LI.

Lilith is zoning midscreen, she uses a TK ES fireball to control the space in front of her. Opponent jump in and air block the ES fireball. Lilith has enough time to do a dashing mp UB against the aerial opponent stuck in block stun. Be sure to turn this reset into an OKI situation with a good mixup/frametrap.

- She begs for Sj.lp mixups in the corner. Loads of options off of it.

j.lp whiffs (causes proximity block), recovers, j.lk: Can choose. still chain to j.mk, or can land to a cr.lk.

J.lp hits- she gets ambiguous corner crossups by walking into the corner. Can fake it for advanced players

J.lp is blocked, full chains to j.lk, j.mp, j.mk, j.hp, j/hk, land, lp which is unblockable. This set's up the same ambiguous corner crossups scenario.

3- Gimmicks and Tricks

- Use ES Command throw, LI against other's using Mid screen lows. Example: Jeda's command grab super, Bishamon poking with his low super etc..

- Once your opponent is familiar with your poke range, you can LI cancel a blocked mp or mk to get in their face. From here cr.lk or throw.

- A setup but the player Kaji: Jump at an opponent, whiff an air normal (preferable j.mp or j.hp), recover, attack with J.hk such that the first couple of active frames have been out before you land. As soon as you land Lilith does Dashing.mk.

A few notes about this string:

- This beats tech hits and allows Lilith to keep frame advantage

- This combo's on hit

- This can be canceled to LI. Tough, but Kaji does it.

- If you time this on someone's wake-up. You can cover (2) roll options. EXAMPLE: neutral N back or Forward n neutral. Just depends on where you start Lilith at.

Example @1:18

- Lilith can get great corner OKI from a pursuit hitting an opponent in the corner.

Throw, cr.HK, LI, all special moves hitting opponent out of the air, DP, Tatsu, any hit after her command throw. (Example, ES Command throw, dashing.hp)

The idea is to let the pursuit hit. Lilith is one of the few characters in the game who can get a good mix-up after a pursuit hits. It's best in the corner pursuit scenario. The pursuit forces Lilith to be in the corner with a knocked down opponent right beside her. some good options are:

1. Walk through opponents corpse and cross up with a meaty dashing.mk. (This links into cr.lk, sets up for a throw etc.)

2.Walk through opponent corpse and do a meaty cr.lk (This links into cr.lk, sets up for a throw etc.)

3. Walk through opponents corpse, then walk back to the first side with a meaty cr.lk. (Be sure to confirm anything into LI, b/c this options doesn't reset into itself unlike the others)

4.Immediately do a TigerKnee ES fireball. IF opponent rolls forward or neutral, Lilith will have them in a meaty scenario while Lilith is out of recovery. IF AND ALSO IF they did not roll back & they blocked standing: Lilith gets an unblockable cr.mk, hp, LI. IF they did not roll backwards & they blocked low, Lilith should bait the Guard cancel/tech hit and stagger a dashing.mk. into the usual options. If you go for the throw at this point, be sure to throw them back into the corner and land a pursuit to reset the situation.*

- One good thing to know is to reversal with MP+MK Dark Force only. Why? When you run away, Lilith can do TK fireball to make the deactivation safer. Check this.

- Against tall & some mid sized standing opponents (Demi, Bee, Anak, Bish, Zabel, jedah, Victor, LeiLei) after a reset/groundchase, Kaji goes from a triple air overhead chain into d.mk, LI. This is effective at fighting TechHIts and opening up people blocking wrong.

Reset > J.lp, J.mp, J.mk, Land, d.mk, LI.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=26m08s

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=52m40s

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=1h3m23s

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=1h6m52s

- As an Anti-air, Lilith uses chicken block, LI.

7+lp, block+lp, 6~lk~hp.

- Poking w/ D.hp, LI. This stuff late jumps, combo's on ground hit, fights techHits, punishes quick 8-jumps & sets up a mixup on air hit. Best abused against Felicia, Gallon, Bee & Jedah.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=14m31s

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=27m33s

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=33m51s

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=45m30s

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=51m00s

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=1h5m29s

- Using es-flash to trade hits and get big corner damage.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9_7hpPxDVo#t=4m8s

- Mixup from a blocked air chain is to land into an unblockable normal. IF the opponent had time to successfully chicken block and Lilith's UB normal will trade or get beaten (too slow), Lilith should land than DP. When the UB hits, always walk-thru the opponent for a nasty left/right 50/50.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=17m24s

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=27m52s

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=28m49s

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=1h20m49s

- When approaching w/ J.mk~hp to cause Proximity block, IF the opponent air block the j.mk, J.hp follows, confirm this air chain into a J.hk, LI. The delays and gaps will punish chicken blocking when you're too high to land and work the UB/DP mixups.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=12m04s

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=13m20s

- Ideal midscreen bread and butter is: Jumpin attack, land, cr.lk, cr.mp, st.mk, LI.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=21m13s

- After a throw, Lilith is at -2f. most opponents know this and use it as a chance to hit buttons and punish Lilith attempting to mount more offense. Lilith should use this time to DP or LI as soon as they tech the corner throw. It's a RISK, yes. but it's important conditioning.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=54m02s

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=1h2m1s

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=1h24m13s

- Wakeup w/ a reversal LI. 4f startup, low invulnerable and throw invulnerable. This is likely to work, once.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=21m09s

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=29m48s

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=1h5m6s

- As Lilith recovers from the opponents throw-tech, reversal LI. 4f startup, low invulnerable and throw invulnerable. This is likely to work, once.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=43m34s

- Throwing w/ HP and inputting LI. This Option selects the throw attempt and causes a mixup on the jumpout. If the throw doesn't connect, hp, LI will combo anyways.

- Against LeiLei, Gallon, Zabel & Bishamon, Lilith will abuse j.mk crossup to fight techHits.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9_7hpPxDVo#t=1m5s

- Poking w/ a slow move and canceling the recover into LI.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=51m16s

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokSGs2H4PA#t=51m33s

- Empty-air-chain w/ this string against tall opponents. (jedah, Bish, Anak, Vic) should not do it on Bee & Demitri

8j.lp. j.lk(whiff), j.mk

4- Vids of Successful Lilith

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDu3223aujU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cK1daGmBoY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_jOxoTNsBk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NShLjz5c3nY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuJojcZHn8A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH8VGa-B_a0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWPrxgyaeH4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pl6lGjZ7tk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i9ia88OdPw

[Mr. Kimura]

Ok, I'll get on it when I can.

[Kyle]

Updating the guide*

[Mr. Kimura]

OK, I will start pulling a little bit now, but definitely more tomorrow. Thanks Kyle.

[Kyle]

Completed the Advanced Guide*

Good start on the Beginner Guide*

It's all you now Mr. Kimura

[Mr. Kimura]

Thanks Kyle, I'll be sure to try and finish when I get off work.

[Mr. Kimura]

The guide should be pretty much done, but unfortunately I am running out of space.

To do: Work on air game, pit bull, zoning, conclusion and a few other things, maybe take the colors out for space purposes.

Also much thanks to Kyle who did most of the work, and to those who provided the information first who I will try and credit, like Buktooth and gbursine.

[Kyle]

Take some info from post#1 and copy/paste in to post#2.

[gbursine]

A few things/opinions/observations I want to throw in on everything.

I think you're undercutting her uppercut(shining blade). while it doesnt have great invincibility, among the other dp related special moves in the game, hers ranks top among them imo. unlike morrigan's dp, hers hit boxes start slightly higher, and covers an effective area . As a guard cancel(GC), due to its' horizontal range, I think it ranks among one of the most useful/effective GC's.

As a character, lilith/morrigan both do burst damage due to their di/li supers. picking either of these characters up, means learning to buffer DI/LI off of every single chain you do. ground/aerial/dashing attacks/sweep.

advancing s.(far)mp's and s.mk's are great at catching jumping opponents.(though its already stated they're great as it is, this is an added benefit)

by which, i think i find hardest to do[keeping jumpy opponents grounded], if anyone has input on how i could better keep people grounded >.>

we need to compile a list of char's that her s.lp hits while they crouch(i.e. NOT Q-bee -___-)

a sample block string frame trap, showing variations, & # of frames of the holes within it.

df clarification, & ways of utilizing them(she has two!)

I've been in light discussion of her df with Kajoq. he likes her hp+hk one, which is akin to morrigan's mirror image DF.

For me her lp+lk/mp+mk df, akin to yang's sei-enbu super, seems more advantageous from the added pressure it provides

[Kyle]

Command supers auto-correct direction changes. I noticed this is most applicable to Lilith.

I had my opponet comfortable with my dashing mk spacing. I was attempting to suprise them with a dashing HP, LI. My prediction wasn't exactly as planned. I did dashing hp, LI but my opopnent had 8-jumped for whatever reason. The dashing hp slid right under Felicia. The LI auto corrected and hit her in the back as she descended.

8-jump punished.

[Kyle]

Here are the patterns of correct Showtime.

http://temptation.tk/vampire/SAVIOR/lilith/page1.htm

[Kajoq]

I need to get a better picture of this page in my Mook... Showtime related

http://images52.fotki.com/v641/photos/7/77755/7043646/VampireSavior010-vi.jpg

[Kyle]

http://clientes.netvisao.pt/anpedror/lilith.htm

A Sweet-Ass LI confirm I have been playing with is:

cr.lk, +cr.lp, cr.lk, LI.

This is great for MANY reasons.

Frame Data;

cr.lp

Startup= 4

Hit Advantage = +8

Guard Advantage = +7

Renda Bonus = (+11)

cr.lk

Startup= 4

Hit Advantage = +6

Guard Advantage = +5

Renda Bonus = (+9)

Let's break down the combo:

cr.lk, +cr.lp, cr.lk, LI.

cr.lk link cr.lp is a 2frame link. If it's blocked Lilith is left at (+6). This set's up for a frametrap/throw

cr.lp chains to cr.lk.

cr.lk command cancels into LI. If it's blocked Lilith is left at (+5). This set's up for a frametrap/throw

Advantages are the inputs & LI confirm.

cr.lk, cr.lp~lp, downforward, cr.lk, XX CONFIRM LI W/ HP.

The combo does most of the LI super for you. lp, lp, towards, short, CONFIRM.

Note: This also works exactly the same off of dashing.lk. The frame data is identical to cr.lk

An alternative is this combo:

cr.lk, +cr.lp, +cr.lk, LI.

cr.lk link cr.lp is a 2frame link. If it's blocked Lilith is left at (+6). This set's up for a frametrap/throw

cr.lp link to cr.lk is a 4frame link. W/ a Renda Bonus of (+9) If it's blocked Lilith is left at (+5). This set's up for a frametrap/throw

cr.lk command cancels into LI. You also have a (+2) renda bonus to cancel into LI later (slower). If it's blocked Lilith is left at (+5). This set's up for a frametrap/throw

Advantages are the inputs & LI confirm.

- cr.lk, +cr.lp~lp, downforward, +cr.lk, XX CONFIRM LI W/ HP.

- The combo does most of the LI super for you. lp, lp, towards, short, CONFIRM.

- No Chains = Harder for opponent to tech-hit & Guard Cancel.

A great frametrap which beats tech hits & progresses Lilith towards is cr.lp, dashing.lk. She can link off of the dashing.lk into the setup mentioned above.

Lastly, Lilith OWNS Anakaris. because of her string:

(cr.lp, dashing.lp) xn

by pressuring this, a few thins to note:

- Anakaris cannot Tech hit

- Anak's Guard Cancel cost 1-meter.

- This blocksun is overlapped w/ a slight stagger = Hard as hell to guard cancel against

- lp link cr.lp is a 1frame link. This 1frame keeps Anak in blockstun, By staggering up to 4 frames, Anak will always get counter-hit b/c his quickest moves is 5 frames.

- cr.lp frame trap dashing.lp is a xframe link, BUT Anak's fastest move is 5frames. If done right, he will always get counter-hit.

- When Anak get's counter-hit, dashing.lp leaves Lilith@(+6). This means Lilith can link cr.lp or cr.lk w/ a 2frame link. These can link/confirm into LI. read above.

Morrigan cannot do this stuff.

her dash startup is longer

her cr.lp is two hits. window is too long to 9frame buffer DI inputs.

[Kyle]

Just noticed another Lilith Setup Kaji is doing. I have started to touch on this with her corner options of late j.hk. But this is the next step to the equation. jump at an opponent, whiff an air normal (preferable j.mp or j.hp), recover, attack with J.hk such that the first couple of active frames have been out before you land. As soon as you land Lilith does Dashing.mk.

A few notes about this string:

- This beats tech hits and allows Lilith to keep frame advantage

- This combo's on hit

- This can be canceled to LI. Tough, but Kaji does it.

- If you time this on someone's wake-up. You can cover (2) roll options. EXAMPLE: neutral N back or Forward n neutral. Just depends on where you start Lilith at.

Example @1:18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjvUANx4j5E&feature=autoplay&list=PL1F76869116CA9F34&lf=autoplay&playnext=25

[Kyle]

Lilith get's great corner OKI from a pursuit hitting an opponent in the corner.

Moves that cause corner knock down are:

Throw

cr.hk

Li

All special move hitting opponent out of the air

DP

Tatsumakei (sucks)

Any hit after her command throw. (Example, ES Command throw, dashing.hp)

The idea is to let the pursuit hit. Lilith is one of the few characters in the game who can get a good mix-up after a pursuit hits. It's best in the corner pursuit scenario. The pursuit forces Lilith to be in the corner with a knocked down opponent right beside her. some good options are:

- Walk through opponents corpse and cross up with a meaty dashing.mk. (This links into cr.lk, sets up for a throw etc.)

- Walk through opponent corpse and do a meaty cr.lk (This links into cr.lk, sets up for a throw etc.)

- Walk through opponents corpse, then walk back to the first side with a meaty cr.lk. (Be sure to confirm anything into LI, b/c this options doesn't reset into itself unlike the others)

-Immediately do a TigerKnee ES fireball. IF opponent rolls forward or neutral, Lilith will have them in a meaty scenario while Lilith is out of recovery. IF AND ALSO IF they did not roll back & they blocked standing: Lilith gets an unblockable cr.mk, hp, LI. IF they did not roll backwards & they blocked low, Lilith should bait the Guard cancel/tech hit and stagger a dashing.mk. into the usual options. If you go for the throw at this point, be sure to throw them back into the corner and land a pursuit to reset the situation.

I believe street fighter IV players call this a vortex.

[Kyle]

Something else I noticed with Morrigan & Lilith.

When going for a throw, use HP & input your command super.

If you throw them, no big deal b/c the super will not come out. If you get hp to connect, the super combos. If you get HP to his them in their jumping frames, you get a neat-o cross-up w/ the whiffed demons.

[Kyle]

Had some extensive/effective Lilith play @Vampire Arcadia this week.

Stream archive is at www.twitch.tv/arcadelegacy

Dec.23rd.

[jedpossum]

The tatsu is only good if the opponent is close (throw range) so I would only use it if I was trapped in the corner then again a guard cancel would work better and change the flow of the match to were you were on the offense.

Neat thing about the grounded ES fireball there is a small window of timing to land the command grab even on hit mid-screen.

[Kyle]

did some testing w/ Lilith close st.lp.

There are the characters which can not crouch under it.

Demitri

Victor

Anak

Bishamon

Jedah

This is Lilith's most + frames. YOu should use it fro pressure. Stuff like st.lp, LINK cr.lp, dashing lp etc.

[Kyle]

Just noticed that Lilith should reversal Dark Force w/ MP+MK instead of HP+HK. When you run away, Lilith can do TK fireball to make the deactivation safer. o.0

See 1:44:10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qydPsWFbu0&list=PLCA51491BF0644B13&index=9&feature=plpp_video

Lastly, Lilith j.lp can hit instant ovrhead against Bish & possibly a few other characters. Combine this with a ES fireball for a nasty setup, Overhead, Fireball hits, Recover from air hit, Do another air attack, land, combo in LI.

XD

[Ciccio]

today i started learning lilit'hs Luminescence illusion combos and after a lot of practice (4 hours) i'm finally able to do those combos....but only in lilith is in the left side of the screen

if i do that combo when she is on the right the LI won't start at all and that's just weird, i don't know if is the stick but i can do the LI whenever i like, just not when i try to combo it

did anyone have my same problem?

[Skankin Garbage]

It's probably just a physical hiccup. It's gonna feel different when you do it on the right side compared to the left side. When you learn combos, you have to internalize what it feels like to do it from both ends of the field.

But, to try and troubleshoot, the single most common problem that messes up DI/LI combos is simultaneous input. If the game registers any of the inputs at the same time, neither of them count, and you'll have to start over.

[Ciccio]

you right now with a little practice i can do the combo in both directions, but only in training mode at the moment