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gbursine

[VS] Engine Stratagems "Everyone can do ... except Anak :-("

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From GBursine @SRK Post#3782

I believe it was the early fall of 2003, while in college, that I had first sat down, and played my first Vampire game. Prior to this, I had come from the Jersey Shore(yes, THAT one). Where no fighting game scene had existed, and it was only my brother and old memories of arcade crowds(far and few from where i am from) that had piqued my interests in fighting games/street fighter.

It was the start of my second year in college, and the penn state crew was at its largest and yet most infantile state. 2003 feels like not to long ago, but videos were scarce. Before torrents, there was really only direct downloading from sites, morpheus/kazaa, and the newly popular DCC(i forget what it stood for, but there were mad crackdowns on it by the end of Q1 2004 ). Anyway, I was initially a mvc2 player at that time. It was my 'gateway game.' morrigan/bb/felicia seemed like such interesting characters, you'd think that the game they came from would be just as charming. The first time playing Vampire Chronicles was overwhelmingly fun(despite what people say). At that time we didn't know what we were doing, but the way that each character did ANYTHING was just cute/amusing/entertaining.

Eventually, I found my way to kaillera & mame, where at the time there was a small scene of about 6-10 people. scattered of course (all over the world) mostly play Vampire Savior. Its interesting thinking about it now, but even with the little flow of information between the US and japan, Vampire Savior was the primary Vampire game being played. Vampire Hunter(Darkstalkers 2) and Vampire savior 2 got their runs every now and then, but Vampire Savior was always the home-base among Vampire Games. So, its also to these people whom I initially owe credit to for the first draft of the SRK Vampire Savior Wiki(the pseudonyms of which i can remember: SoldierZero, princesschibibobo, GeorgeWBush, cbyer, jmin, tetsu, dragonangel, assclown, d'nyce). There were alot of habits/skills that just developed from playing people all the time(i'm sure much in the same way the hotspot scenes develop) that you don't learn from just watching match videos.

And there's something you can tell, by just playing the game, that there was definitely more potential in it than to be just a cult following game (i.e. bloody roar). I had decided, this scene needs to develop. I can start it, despite my technical skills (because I knew i was no Justin Wong, I sadly have a ceiling to how well I can play at any fighting game). I could spearhead knowledge for the game, but inevitably geniuses would rise above, and I'd be a mediocre, knowledgeable player. I can live with that.

Contemplating what creates continuing interest in a scene, I had broken down a simple list:

-a game with depth/quality/substance

-a consistent place for players to play

-a centralized location of information on which new players could reference to, and veteran players could build upon.

-regular tournaments (in any interval of time) to maintain interest.

The game speaks for itself, and kailllera was/is a good jumping point for players to begin playing vampire, before introducing it to their local scene.

So obviously to start, Vampire Savior had no centralized location of information. Which seems very obvious, but in my opinion many persons see the way American interest in the Vampire Scene has grown, but don't recognize the roots of why. Others will look at game X, and say 'why is this beautiful game abandoned from play?' Sometimes the best approach to resolving a problem/question is to break down, isolating issues into smaller more manegable/traceable pieces. I knew giving just straight up strategies/methods right off the bat would actually shoo away certain new players. As a gateway, the first thing players look for when picking up a fighter are, "what combos/gimmicks can I do?"

So my first steps toward initiating a scene was to scour for information already out, and gauge whether it was legitimate, led to something legitimate, or a pro-tip(aka not useful & blatantly obvious). There were a sizeable amount of guides on Gamefaqs (though only a handful had gems of information). SRK had B-izm and Jchesnor/john choi(apologies, i am getting confused thinking about it on which one was pro VS, or if they're both the same person). There were a handful of threads actually explaining the mechanics of various VS characters.

Around this time, I had also found someone's giant cache of Vampire savior footage on Direct Connect(the bit-torrent at that time). This is the cache that had superplay/skillsmith videos, as well as a slew of japanese VS matches. For what was available, this was an information treasure trove, and subsequently became the base of the original VS thread.

Spring of 2004 came and went. During and after this time, I had elaborated on additional general strategies as well as a few character strategies. People took the time to look and I think there were definitely people dabbling with the game because of the thread. Kaillera had quite a few notable players come and go. From the start, I knew realistically, nothing happens instantly; and pushing for people to play only comes off as being desperate. If the thread died (and this may be conceited, but I believed that that thread was something of a lifeline for interest in VS) then so be it. I continued updating it from matches I played, japanese videos I saw. Spring of 2005, my scene held a tourney, Vampire Savior included. The NEC of 06' I ran what I think was their first Vampire Savior tourney with the Kaillera crew. Fall of 2005 actually, FMJaguar asked me, "you still want to keep writing about Darkstalkers? SRK is going to start its own wiki."

Spring of 2006 was also my 8th semester in college. I was nearing the end of my educational career, and most of the original crew at Penn state had graduated and moved on. Furthermore, the local arcade had closed, decreasing the chances of maintaining a pool of fighter' players. (Fmj moved to Vegas around this time ) I think on and off for that year I worked on the VS wiki. That NEC I had run Vampire again. & at the last two East Coast Championships I had run Vampire. Then I graduated.

Early 2007, ggpo came out. Vampire Savior was Ponder's Xmas gift that year, or the year after(or maybe even 2006 he added it, I forget). The Vampire thread was still kickin. I was aloof (sorry ^_^;;). For a short while, after VS was first released on GGPO I had run Vampire Ranking Battles(VamBats). And I've attended every other NEC. (And Evo East)

Honestly, I find having a professional job, a social life, a dedicated physical activity, and performing at some decent level in ONE [fighting] game difficult. I don't know if i'm slow or normal. But in my time aloof between the real world and the internet, the US Vampire scene has remained resilient. Different from when things had started, youtube and live streaming has become the king of internet media for this generation of fighting game persons(the japanese are so proactive!). The Japanese host regular tournaments(of both Vampire Savior & Vampire Hunter), and upload them. They even have a 'Cup' for Darkstalkers.

Right now, from what I've seen and hope fore in the States foremost are small scenes strewn across the nation(so.cal, north carolina, nyc, i think atlanta); the recent Focus Fire Tournament in Wisconsin, who's stream shortly gave Savior' some air time; the pro-active ggpo/VS community(ty guys!);mizuumi's improved wiki source; and Keits's up and coming UFG Tournament, which has given Vampire Savior quite a highlight among many new games.

I see other persons with confident (and legitimate!) knowledge advising new persons on the game. IMO my initial goal is done. People who have any interest in VS have a reliable place to pick up the game, or at the least, learn about the technical aspects of it. Interest itself seems to wax and wane, in much the same way the entire street fighter series did until street fighter 4 came out. Tournaments will definitely help, but I think Pushing for an arcade perfect VS as a Digital Download is the next big step.(investing in DS4 is just too big of a financial commitment from a business perspective) Ono has been pushing for Darkstalkers 4/Vampire3, and there are mixed reactions(though I think mostly negative). My honest predictions are that if something were to materialize, it would be in 2012(Capcom's project plate seems full). Whether or not it be Ono, I honestly don't care, so long as they maintain the integrity of the game(i'd add to their campaigning if i could find my user/pass on their site >.>).

And thats where I believe we are, and where i've come from. Thats most've what I have to say. I'll be on GGPO more often in hopes of being ready for the memorial weekend tournament. And two lasts gifts to the VS community (abeit a bit crappy, and hopefully I don't anger good people). And thats all(I have to xmas wrap @_@)! Thanks!

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From Feliniki @SRK Post#4315

The pre-jump animation (i.e., where you're still considered to be on the ground) is 3 frames, IIRC. There's probably some more time after that before you can actually perform an action, but I'm not sure how long it is.

__________

This means everyone has 3frames jump startup.

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I have another Anita pic now. With the correct palette too.

Edit:Looking at the character order it turns out that Sasquatch's Palette works really well on Anita.

Still doesn't mean there isn't more graphics to post.

post-23542-139515165949_thumb.jpg

Edited by jedpossum
adding pictures

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About those unused Anita portraits... I noticed that older Anita's color scheme as depicted in Dee's ending in the PS2 collection is pretty much the same as her young sprite that would appear with Donovan (clothes are lavender, etc.), so on a whim I applied that palette to those unused portraits and it fits perfectly.

vsanitascoreportrait.gif

vsanitaportrait.gif

Also it looks like earlier in development Huitzil was in character slot 0x0B, the one eventually occupied by Raptor's Dark Force form. If you hack the high score table to include an entry with character 0x0B, you'll get Huitzil's portrait.

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I'm sure you can get which slot is 0x0B on the character select screen.

The only actual hacking I'm doing recently is porting over the most of the stage palettes over from Vsav 2 to Vsav 1.

igWTx.png

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i wrote stuff in the 3rd post. I think most heavy blanketing topics have been covered now.

some editing may ensue

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I finally understand renda bonus in its entirety. I want to xplain to shed light to anyone not 100%sure. In vsav, there are 3 ways to combo gound norma.

1. Chains. Anything ascending in this order. Lp,lk,mp,mk,hp,hk. Standing or croutching does not matter. Bishamon has chainable normals with 6+attack. Chains buffer. You can input lp,lk very fast,such that lk is pressed before lp hits. The lk will still come out. Chains can not special cancel or super cancel. Only command super cancel.

2. Links. You completely recover from an attack, than attack again while opponent is still in hitstun. Only certain things link n setup links. Check your advantage frames vs move startup to confim. Because a link is not a chain, it can special cancel. As long as the linked normal is special cancelable.

3. Rapidfire attacks. Certain moves rapidfire into themselves or other moves. Only light attacks. These do not buffer and only cancel during your moves recovery. Be sure not to completely recover or else you will link and not rapidfire. Rapidfiring an attack causes extra hitstun. This is the renda bonus. Purposefully rapidfiring an attack for the extra plus frames is a very strong competative tactic. Check your frame to confirm values and moves which can rapidfire.

On these websites, the renda says chain or link. Truth is, linking or chaining will not give the bonus! Renda bonus is from rapidfire. Not all light attacks can rapidfire. Sorry anakaris.

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I have no idea how to do these but apparently there is a 7th win pose for certain characters.

Anak's 7th winpose is his coin gather win pose but no coins.

Here is Morrigan's

http://i.imgur.com/Fx9Iy.png

I believe it's one of her Random+Conditions ones. The PS2 collection has a dipswitch that makes it possible to enable these by holding buttons.

1-12: Morrigan's secret winposes require a random chance in addition to certain conditions being met. (If turned off, they can be selected with LP + LK, MP + MK, and HP + HK.)

Anak has a similar dipswitch with the coin minigame to get large coins, not sure about no coins.

-9

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I came across an interesting System mechanic discovery the other day. Demitri is wide & when we get's up, his vulnerable box can a stop you from corpse hoping. I was able to use this to force backdashed to go towards the opponent. This turned out to be suprising worthless. The characters have to have a quick walk speed and a slower backdash, such that they can walk thru demi & backdash just as he gets up. So people like Sas & Bulleta can't do it, their backdash is too fast. People like Anak & Vic can't do it b/c their walk speed is too slow. Here's the people who can. Lilith, Morrigan, Q-Bee, Aulbath, Felicia. Unfortunately, the only person who has hitboxes on the back side of their backdashing normals is Morrigan. Sounds cool, but in application, her minimum flight time makes the whole setup worthless. The real interesting part is w/ Aulbath tho. when you backdash you hold 4. Fishy triple hops. once he returns to neutral, the character flips his y-axis. Although you are still holding the same direction, what was 4 is now 6 and a horizontal charge move comes out instantly.

it seems the coding for charge times is based on the way characters are facing and not based on direction entirely. Kinda makes sense as command super are the same way.

The next step, i haven't tested this yet, but what about using air trajectories for charge time. Say Bulleta double jumps just over the opponent, if she doesn't press an air normal on the second jump, she doesn't flip the y-axis. I wonder if she can land and have 4 turn into 6 and the missle comes out.

Can an Aulbath buffer a 4 during a really high drill kick, such that when he lands on the other side of the opponent 4 turns into a 6 and he can counter sonicwave/gas with one direction?

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Can an Aulbath buffer a 4 during a really high drill kick, such that when he lands on the other side of the opponent 4 turns into a 6 and he can counter sonicwave/gas with one direction?

Seems so, for either drill or trick fish.

And if you cross an Aulbath up, there's a good chance you'll force him to get an unwanted charge move. Letting go or changing directions doesn't seem to stop this, but that could just be emulator/online delay. Same with BBHood, although the missile fire is very likely to hit them anyway since it's so fast.

I couldn't get a case of jump-charge (hold), crossover, land, charge fire to work. Didn't seem like there was enough charge time? Could just be me though.

In looking for weird wakeup crossover tricks, BB can step forward, oki s.HK mine (needs to be deep), 4MKx2 (crossover) hit punch will get you a missile.

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I do something similar when I go for empty jump/command throw. Sometimes when I set this up, I do it intentionally so that I'll jump behind the opponent, either to (hopefully) mess up their AA attempt or (hopefully) get them to think I'm setting up a crossup. As I'm jumping over them, I'll buffer the HCB motion, and even though "back" is "towards" by the time I land, the Command Throw still executes perfectly.

This is a pretty cool application of the concept, though.

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HUGE shoutouts to FleshyP for hypothesizing/testing a stupid scenario we kept coming across.

Often when punishing DarkForce deactivation, it's inconsistent if the opponent is standing or crouching, we had a belief it was character specific. That was wrong. Turns out the player who is in deactivation can force the crouch or stand during their opponents punish. How? Just hold 1 or 4. Stupid right? Now, Bulleta can't do dash links combos to punish DF deactivation. Silly times... yeah

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I want to shed some light on a air to air metagame which has evolved and really forces second guessing to chicken blocking!

When setting up air chains which lead to grounded unblockable attacks (ggpo peeps call this guard break) there are heights which are not advantagous. Meaning, even when doing the proper air string, the defendants chickenblock attack will hit before the attackers grounded attack becomes active.

The attacker has one final option to win, although the risk reward is now skewed. Using ground invincibility to beat the air normal. This turns into another guess and check and bait scenario which is the heart of good fighting games. Typically, if the attacker does this options and the chickenblocker continues to block, they can punish hard. Be sure to conditionand rotate options people.

Here's a list of ground invinc moves playes can use to beat chickenblocking at the wrong heights:

Zabel: teleport (57f invinc.) or dark force or GC

Sasquatch: ES GC

Qbee: Dark force OR GC

Gallon: Darkforce or GC

Felicia: GC

Bulleta: Wipe the floor?

Bishamon: dp (Invinc. not listed) or GC

Aulbath: dark force

Leilei: dark force

Demitri: dp (6f invinc.) or GC

Lilith: dp (7f invinc.) or GC

Morrigan: dp (7f invinc.) or gc

Victor: GC

Jedah: dark force or ES GC

Anakaris:

Be mindful, all these options can be risky!

Edited by Kyle

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Keep in mind, if you land but don't have enough time to Guard Break your airborne opponent, you can also GC their attack. It's not necessarily a GOOD idea, but this can be handy to remember for characters with invincible GCs.

Another thing to consider, too, is that you don't necessarily need an invincible attack. If you have a crouching anti-air, it can be used if the opponent is high enough to hit a standing opponent but too high to connect against a crouching opponent. Using Talbain as an example, the standard Guard Break attack is S.Lp, but C.Hp is effective when the opponent is within a certain distance from the ground.

Lastly, if we're assuming the attacker is landing on the ground before they get hit, you can supersede the entire mind game by just blocking, or adding an extra layer of 'meta' on it by AG'ing the airborne opponent's counter-attack, leaving you with better frame advantage and positioning than you would have had otherwise. This may allow you to punish THEM for trying to punish you - omgwtf

And, just a note; Talbain's Climb Razor is not invincible - not any version at all. However, I believe it does have the unique property of being one of the only AA's that can't be air-blocked if the opponent is too low to the ground. That property exists with the normal versions, as well as the ES. As to its effectiveness in this situation, I have no empirical data to report. The startup is slower than S.Lp, but it IS faster than C.Hp, and it can be done from the crouching position. But, any further speculation from me would be straight-up theory fighter.

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I really don't know how many Invicible Frames have Felicia's ES delta kick, to be honest: i didn't know that attack have invincible startup at all

how can we found those invincible frames?

i uploaded her page about her attack from the: "all about vampire savior" book, (good think i have that on my pc) there's a 13 but i don't know if those are the invincible frame because i can't read japanese, but if i look on the already know frames (like zabel teleport ) there's a blue 57 and if you look on morrigan soul fist page there's a 7, so I THINK those are the Invincible frames

2ewlk7m.jpg

For skankin about his cr.antiair solution: that solution can work most of the times for different characters, but not for Felicia because her Cr.HP is air blockable and her cr.mp miss air opponents most of the times (and have slow recovery so is very punishable)

Edited by Ciccio

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That scanned page shows two Delta Kicks. The first is for the Guard Cancel version, which does have invulnerability on startup (as virtually all GCs do). The second listing in the center of the page is for the normal version; note that all versions including the ES have six startup frames and no invulnerability.

Also, in the case of Felicia's C.Hp, it doesn't necessarily matter that it can be air-guarded, because this scenario assumes the opponent is going to counter-attack; if we were certain they weren't going to counter-attack, we would simply opt for the standard Guard Break.

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Thanks for the confirming data guys.

What about the few others.

Gallon ES Flashkick

Sasquatch ES Towers

Victor ES Knee

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All versions of Victor's Giga Burn (knee) have no invulnerable frames unless done as a Guard Cancel, in which case it has 11. His invulnerable (non-GC) attacks are: Dark Force, Mega Forehead, Mega Stake (the jumping, huge fist attack), and Thunder Break (Electric Earthquake super).

All versions of Talbain's Climb Razor (flash kick) have no invulnerable frames. Talbain's invulnerable (non-GC) attacks are: Dark Force, and Wild Circular (command throw).

No version of Sasquatch's Big Towers have invulnerable frames. The only invulnerable move Sasquatch has besides GC are his Dark Forces.

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Climb Razor is probably decent in those situations because the hitbox in the front is very, very good. Since both fighters would be roughly one character length away horizontally, it'll take a high-priority normal to knock it out...or, at least, an intelligently-timed normal whose active box extends under their vulnerable box. I think most if not all characters in the game have at least one air normal like this.

The reason Big Towers wins in this situation is obvious; Sas is going to be too low to the ground to get hit, and you can't hit - let alone trade against - the icicles. Hence, it's more like an evade-and-counter that is extremely unlikely to fail.

As for ES Giga Burn...I have no idea why you're seeing that win all the time. The startup is slow (9 frames; ES is 12 frames), and the active box is pretty small. The ES version is a lot bigger; but the box's increased size extends backward and downwards, which shouldn't be an improvement for an anti-air move. However, the active box does extend forward past the vulnerable box by a decent amount, so that might be part of the reason for its success in this scenario.

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It takes one frame to switch from a crouching to a standing block. So, if you attack with a high and a low within a certain time frame of each other, the second attack will be unblockable. B.B Hood's unblockable is the most popular example of this effect.

B.B Hood's J.Hk is a mid (can be blocked high or low) and is also a projectile. This is important, because the projectile doesn't disappear when she lands; this allows her to land and do a new attack while the J.Hk projectile is still out. If the opponent blocks it standing, which they usually will, she can land and attack with a low that will hit at the same time they are blocking her J.Hk projectile, which has them pinned in a standing position. Thus, B.B Hood gets an unblockable low (and technically, an unblockable high attack against tall characters, AND a high/low mixup off a jump, since the unblockable gives her opponents incentives to crouch-block a jumping attack, which is really, really weird).

Hsien-Ko can accomplish the same thing with her projectile if the opponent blocks high (she can attempt to trick opponents into standing with a dash feint). Lilith and Morrigan can do the same thing with their ES Fireballs, too, although it's rather impractical.

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...Oh. And, for the sake of completion, you missed Talbain's more common unblockable. ES BC can be made unblockable in certain situations because blocking certain parts of it appears to cause his opponents to drop their proximity blocking entirely. This is why sometimes, opponents will get "crossed up" by 6 9 2, and that's also why sometimes in the corner, opponents will magically fail to block 6 9 2 6 (or really, just 2 6/9). More experienced players tend to throw in jabs/DPs at these key points, or they know the holes in the block string where they can safely jump backwards and chicken guard.

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So our good friend Hampster from the Japanese community recently wrote us a text document detailing some defensive options and how the frames work on air resets (or just wakeup in general)

I decided to explain US players what's VS offense/defense like (system-wise),because I often see them doing technically ineffective offense/defenses.I'm glad some US people like this game as a fan of this game myself,and I hope this document helps them to have more fun with further understanding.

1.

I am going to pick up the situation where you are landing after air reset because it is easy to understand.It is also one of the best damage sources for most characters so it is very important to understand this situation.

A)What exactly happenes around the reversal frame?

frame -1 the last frame of air reset falldown

frame 0 the reversal frame.character can only do specials or take guard pose.this frame is invincible no matter what,but if character do a reversal special,it cancels throw-immunity.

frame 1 character's hitbox returns.becomes to be able to do anything.

frame 2-4 ~

frame 5 becomes to be able to be thrown.but this appears to be unstable and can be next frame.

B)Something you should know first

Character can't *start* anything at the exact frame an opponent's attack(excluding throws)lands to it.Can't do any specials including demon cradle and such,jump,DF or throw,anything.Can't even start to take guard pose.It can only guard or get hit.This depends on what it was doiing previous frame.If it was taking right(stand/crouch) guard pose it WILL block,if not it WILL get hit next frame.In short you have to take guard pose(or do invincible specials) 1frame before the opponent's attack lands.

By start I mean the very first frame of moves.Not meaning the frame where actual attacks comes out which is like 5~frame after the first frame.

C)Result

Because of B) if an opponent's attack is landing at frame1(i want to know what this is called in english by the way,in japanese it's "kasane")...

defender can't throw.if the attack was low(and normally it is),it will hit.if not,it will be blocked.Only reversal invincible command throw will be successful.

also,defender will guard an opponent's high attack(and overheads)even if it was trying to jump.

In result of these,attacking with high is just pointless in this situation.It will most likely be blocked,and defender has little risk to try to jump/throw.

Theoretically same thing can be said to wakeup reversal,but since the timing is not as obvious as air reset,high attacks can be effective to prevent jumps etc.But it doesn't change the fact that low attacks are superior.

2.

What is an effective defense?(besides SRK)

If you get reset in the air,you are in big trouble.You should try to avoid this situation in the first place but it will happen.

D)What's effective depends on what character you are fighting.

Let's say you are fighting wolf.He's likely to attack low or throw(to be simple).Both wins against your jump so it's basically a bad defense here.Same thing can be said to any character who has anti-jump throw.

Fastest light attack(linked into chains) works for both.If a low attack was there your light attack doesn't come out but at least you can guard,and if wolf was trying to throw your light attack stops it(it can still difficult).Fastest attack can be punished by delay attacks(zurashi in japanese),will explain later.

DF can work as well if it was good one(like fish,jedah).There is an input method of tech guard that intentionally excute an "accidental DF" so that you can tech low attack,and avoid throw at the same time.It's like lp+lk>mp>hp>hk>mk.This can be punished by delay attack as well.

If the opponent had fast overhead,it's technically 50/50.If it was say sasquatch,it's near impossible to see which is coming.What you should do here is to watch the distance.If it's far it means low will not do as much damage as overhead.Therefore your best bet is stand-guard(then tech).If it was too close it means sas can't hit with short dash so you can just crouch guard.But if it was corner and close...it's just 50/50 and both will do a lot of damage.At least tech if you successfully blocked.Same thing can be said to those who have fast overhead,but many of them you can see which is coming if you have good reaction time(at least offline,lag makes big difference here).

Bee's overhead can't hit 1st frame of air reset recovery(because homing dash messes up),so fuzzy guard(crouch guard--->stand guard) is effective here.Or,simply jumps tend to work against bee.

If the opponent doesn't have anti-jump throw and overhead,you think it's safe at first,but good players will use delay attack more so you need to know what they are doing.

Basically there is THE best defense against most of each attacks(besides zabel unblockable and fast overheads)...if there were not delay attacks.When ppl starts to use it,there is no longer the best defence and you just can't avoid their attacks 100% of the time.

3.

How to counter defenses above?

Jump,throw and such can obviously be countered by lows so not going to explain here.

E)If the opponent is mashing light attack or DF

They will still guard your attack that lands on recovery frame.And stops your throw...it can be frustrating to be stopped by mindless mashers.

Also the opponent's DF goes off when you try to throw.This is because it was not taking guard pose(can't DF while taking guard pose).If it was taking guard pose,lp(most likely) comes out.

What you have to do to counter them is not to hit the 1st recovery frame.Let it fire light attack then punish before it actually hits you.

Fastest light attack/DF can be countered by...starting your attack at the opponent's reversal frame.This way it will take guard pose at the reversal frame so if it tries to do DF lp will come out.So it's same as lp masher.And your attack should be a little bit faster.

Exact timing to press the button is about 1F earlier than the opponent's reversal frame,because there is an input delay for this game(it seems every CPS2 game have 2F input delay but VS turbo3 makes it 1.5F).I'm personally calling this 5F delay attack(its actually like 4 though).It will reqire a bit of practice especially against fast light attack characters like BB and lilith.

Note that since you are not trying to punish jump or throw you don't have to use a low attack.In fact it is better to use high attacks that can punish jump.Also you don't tick.Just do max damage chains as long as it is expected to hit.

Also,try to avoid doing this in throw-range because you can be thrown although it's very risky for the opponent to do it.You can walk back a tiny bit to be safe or even lure throw.

a

4.

How to counter tech

If the opponent is trying to tech and not mashing,timing tends to be abit late than E).For this you delay like 10F.Just 5F slower than E)(I'm personally calling this 10F delay attack).

These 2timings(5 and 10F delay attack) should be enough to deal with most players.If it's even slower,you can just do anything to them.

Some ppl still fires light attack very fast while trying to just tech,if so you apply E) timing.

Most important thing is to detect the opposing player's habit ASAP so that you can choose which timing of delay or throw etc to punish his defense.However 5F delay attack just outside of throw-range is basically safe to do(use an attack that has some height to punish jump at the same time).

And when you found out what works for a player,just keep punishing untill he notices it doesn't always work and stops it.When both players know what offense option beats what defense option the true mindgame starts.

You can be true VS player when you mastered tech and delay attack!

5.

How to deal with delay attacks when defending?

You have to stop mindless mashing/tech input.Read the opponent's option and choose your defense.You can often avoid the worst case senario by judging from the distance.Also try to watch if you actually blocked or not to get hit by delay.You can be thrown more doing this but that's just how this game is.There is no perfect defense.

6.

many more,too tired......

ask me if you want more!

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I don't know how necessary it was for me to do this...but, if anyone's interested, I cleaned up the English a bit. If anyone is having trouble reading this for any reason, I can post a slightly re-written version.

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