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Shazam

[CS2] Hazama vs Arakune

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Is there any concrete frame data on his backdash, or are we in the dark?

Edit:

Jayoku is actually pretty bad when it comes to range. I dunno but it feels like they nerfed the hitbox since CS1 because dash 3C > Jayoku no longer works. But thing is that Arakune can block 214D~A charged or even mash out of it.

Yeah they can mash if Arakune is batshit crazy. ALSO I'm totally cool with +5 i think i might actually want them to block it.

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I meant doing a 5A before we get to press A in stance. Obviously not after they block 214D~A itself.

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You can time the 214D~A to be meaty upon their backdash ending, you just have to be super baller.

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But then you have to call out the backdash.. which means he can 2C FC you if you call it wrong... I think baiting with IAD is the best option. j.6D is very nice too. But what about his forward dash? You're screwed either way for that one.

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If Arakune feels safe forward dashing out of your pressure, you're doing it wrong. His forward dash is vulnerable for roughly 4 or 5 frames, for him to successfully forward dash during your pressure means very large gaps. It's dangerous for him, he needs to read you solidly.

2C fatal is a viable complaint, if he sees you just standing there in stance, the risk reward for 2C is steeply in his favor.

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If he dashes forward (assuming he ends up behind you from the teleport) while you're in stance, 214D~A carries you to a safe distance away. Even if you do jump, and he dashes behind you, you could chain out and get back to zoning distance. I'm not sure what you would do if he forward dashes at the end of a pressure string/combo. The advantage will probably be neutral, so there's not much of a clear answer what to do with it other than to continue pressure, backdash yourself, or try and catch him with 3C.

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you could always cancel stance(very quickly would not recommend) or hit him with the FLASH KICK! Charged 214~D with hazama and 2C with arakune are both very risky options where either player must feel very confident to use.

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There's really not much Arakune can do about 214D~B from most distances. j.D won't hit because of i-frames, neither will party bug. Arakune can fatal 2C it, but that's only if you time it wrong. It stuffs all of his air approaches. The only real answer he has to it is his clouds.

Edit: Nevermind, Party Bug totally stuffs it if it's behind him.

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This should probably go in the video section but posting things in the wrong places is what i'm all about with this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7I8TRTEzd3s Pretty sure that's Kagetsu, only the first match is relevant to this topic

http://www.youtube.com/user/GatlingSmash?blend=21&ob=5#p/u/0/8FcO-kHkfH0 Teruwo is always a fun player to watch. The vs Tager match is pretty funny too, though it looks like he felt intimidated, he definitely did a few things wrong. Good match though. Enjoy!

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Since I didn't see it mentioned anywhere I figured I'd post it up althought its probably common knowledge.

If you block arakunes overhead (6a?) And he goes into 5D you can hotenjin out for a fatal. On normal block it trades and allows for follow up, on IB I'm pretty sure it flat out wins, correct me if I'm wrong.

This last bit will be purely speculation since I don't have a chance to try it (on break at work atm). I took a quick glance at frame data and if I'm doing this all the right way I think Hotenjin should always win after 6A. 6A leaves Arakune at neutral (+/-0), his quickest gatling is 2B which has 10f startup. With Hotenjin being 7f startup it should beat or trade with the 2B on regular block.

Again I can't test this and its possible I looked at or read the frame data wrong but I guess putting it out here can't really hurt anything. If anyone can confirm/deny this I would be greatly apprieciative.

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I have had no success in beating the 6A>2B gatling with houtenjin. It leaves me in blockstun for a bit too long.

Edit: Also, you can trade houtenjin for 5D in the 6A>5D gatling, but it's much safer just to block 5D as well (even if it does get you cursed), because you can fatal counter houtenjin or counter with any other move into houtenjin on 5D recovery.

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That doesn't work. 6A is a level 3 attack, so it inflicts 16f blockstun. An immediate gatling to 2B is completely airtight even on IB since 2B is only 11F startup and there is nothing you can do. There is a 1F/4F gap on 6A -> 5D however.

When frame data math involves gatlings, don't look at the frame advantage. The reason for this is that advantage is calculated by using the recovery of the move, but when you gatling moves their recoverery is cancelled into the startup of another move.

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When going for a counter after blocking 5D couldn't Arakune jump cancel barrier gaurd to prevent the counter? This would require the player to know you were going for the counter but it also leaves you in curse which is a spot no ones wants to be in.

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Arakune's pressure is butt without curse, barrier, backdash, hell even mash and jump work sometimes when he doesn't have curse.YOU don't have to let him pressure you.

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Edit: Also, you can trade houtenjin for 5D in the 6A>5D gatling, but it's much safer just to block 5D as well (even if it does get you cursed), because you can fatal counter houtenjin or counter with any other move into houtenjin on 5D recovery.

5D is jump and special cancellable on block and hit, and it has like 43 frames of recovery, we have literally NO reason to not do either of the 2. You're wasting your meter if you hotenjin a blocked 5d, unless you are sure Arakune is trying to resume pressure.

Arakune's pressure if butt without curse, barrier, backdash, hell even mash and jump even work sometimes when he doesn't have curse.YOU don't have to let him pressure you.

Arakune has frame traps for the mashing type, he has tool against jump outs as well, his pressure is far from the best, but don't count it out. The better Arakunes will do rising j.b > j.4b which beats mashing non AA/DP moves and jump out, it eats even Tager's backdash and is pointless to barrier, he can jump cancel any of his moves into a n IAD j.4aa string which gets around barrier blocking, and it's a decent mix up tool.

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When going for a counter after blocking 5D couldn't Arakune jump cancel barrier gaurd to prevent the counter? This would require the player to know you were going for the counter but it also leaves you in curse which is a spot no ones wants to be in.

Again, think of the curse meter gain. It's much safer for you to block it and risk not being able to counter but only gaining about 20% curse, than to try and FC houtenjin trade, get 40% curse, and possibly drop your combo. Also, your options become better if they jump and barrier. If they jump neutral or forward, you can air-throw. If they jump backwards (assuming the 5D didn't curse you), you can backdash and resume your zoning game. And before you ask "well what if they don't barrier and they just attack in the air?", remember your friends 2C and 5C.

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Again, think of the curse meter gain. It's much safer for you to block it and risk not being able to counter but only gaining about 20% curse, than to try and FC houtenjin trade, get 40% curse, and possibly drop your combo. Also, your options become better if they jump and barrier. If they jump neutral or forward, you can air-throw. If they jump backwards (assuming the 5D didn't curse you), you can backdash and resume your zoning game. And before you ask "well what if they don't barrier and they just attack in the air?", remember your friends 2C and 5C.

I get blocking when the 20% won't put you in curse and then countering the air attack. I was thinking more about when it does curse you since you mentioned blocking the 5D would still be better in that situation. Going for the air throw when they neutral/forward jump + barrier is something I will definetely have to work on adding into my gameplan though. I get my fair share of experience with Arakune from my offline scene so all of this information (no matter how big/small) is something that I like to have.

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YES! Thank you Dusty lol. This thread's gone unmoved for way too long now.

BTW - this happened to me during score attack.

I was fighting Arakune, he did a random f of g during my 6d. I used the d follow up and was not cursed! :yaaay:

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