PhoenonX Report post Posted February 5, 2012 Hakumen is definitely bad for Relius, one reason being since a lot of his Ledlei tricks won't work on him due to his counters. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skye Report post Posted February 5, 2012 Hakumen can't be that bad, if only for that reason alone. There's gotta be more to it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unsanctifier Report post Posted February 5, 2012 no safe summons unless you're at full range ignis counts as a projectile "fuck your pressure" aka D he can keep you at bay pretty easily Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skye Report post Posted February 5, 2012 Well as far as ignis goes, it seems like something the player just has to deal with. But there has to be answers to the other stuff. Seems a part of fighting Hakumen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unsanctifier Report post Posted February 5, 2012 of course there are answers, but they're limited and not always very effective when they work however, due to the ideal spacing of this match, i feel like if hakumen messes up anything he can get punished rather hard by a 6c/2c fatal, gotta test out some stuff more still with 6c fatals Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skye Report post Posted February 5, 2012 I guess I'll need a write up or a video accurately showcasing the matchup to fully understand. Just seems like all the factors involved, save for Ignis is just a part of fighting Hakumen with any character. In my scrub opinion, the matchup sounds even as long as Relius isn't going braindead. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Arifureta Report post Posted February 5, 2012 I play a lot of Hakumen. It's not bad, but it does force you to rethink your gameplan. Anything that relies on forcing him to block from neutral is a bit risky since he can just throw out a 2D on reaction (oki, ley, duo bios shenanigans, so on), so a big chunk of your standard gameplan is now gone, or at least unsafe. Once you get that out of the way though, it's not really that bad. If you get in on Hakumen, your standard blockstring still works. And your answer to his pressure is no different from anyone else. In fact, it's a little easier for you since he doesn't normally have a dash and so can't chase you if you backstep out of his pressure. It's mostly the neutral game that's changed. Where normally you get to dictate the flow of the neutral game, it now becomes his show to run. Although as much as he can be very good at keeping you out, I don't think this in itself gives him a huge advantage since there are still ways for you to safely approach him (e.g. A blocked Lyra). And even if he does successfully keep you out, he'll still have to commit at some point, and I don't think his pressure is any different from anyone else. In my opinion, zoners like Lambda and Mu have the advantage in a Relius match up. I feel that Relius is not very effective at the ideal range where Lambda and Mu excel, and so his options for getting in become riskier. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unsanctifier Report post Posted February 5, 2012 hakumen has godlike neutral game "You stay over there, I'll stand here and gain meter" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Arifureta Report post Posted February 5, 2012 Yeah... That's one of the things that's iffy about it. But like I said, at some point he'll have to commit. Those then become the scariest few seconds of the match, but if you survive his pressure then you are now at a very good spot to start your counterattack since he is now in range and most likely out of meter. Of course if you don't survive his pressure then you die because a Hakumen with full meter is a Hakumen who can kill you in one combo. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unsanctifier Report post Posted February 5, 2012 Soo...if I'm to understand this, if he messes up, you can get a good fatal counter on him and run him down? Hmm. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kurushii Report post Posted February 5, 2012 I personally felt the matchup vs Mu is in Relius's favor. She can't open charge a stein without eating 214B or 214A. All the ones I matched had to switch up their gameplan to be more close range and more random with their steins. I can only remember playing one Lambda so far in EX and I got dominated on my startups from full screen. The Haku one I haven't had a chance to experience enough. The tournament im going to next weekend I plan on trying to get in some matches against SansProtocol's Haku and see how the matchup really is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unsanctifier Report post Posted February 5, 2012 Against Mu, if she gets into a mindless steining phase than yeah. EASY 214B CH, no problems there. That match-up isn't bad at all for Relius. Can't play like that against Lambda though, gotta wait for an opening to 214A and try to rush down with ignis covering you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Arifureta Report post Posted February 5, 2012 Mm, I see. I haven't actually played a lot of Mu. I assumed she would do good only because she's a zoner and I have a really tough time fighting against Lambda. Soo...if I'm to understand this, if he messes up, you can get a good fatal counter on him and run him down? Hmm. Not so much a fatal counter, though some Hakumen have a really bad habit of airdashing to approach and that's a free 2C. It's mostly the fact that Hakumen does not have a lot of answers at close range without having to spend his meter so if you find yourself in that situation then you have a bit of an advantage. Of course, it's still not that easy since he has his drive, but at that point it just becomes like playing against any other character with a DP. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skye Report post Posted February 5, 2012 Didn't mean to spark productive banter, lol. But it's good to get a feel on this match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guardian Report post Posted February 5, 2012 Relius/Haku is in Haku's favor all day. He can just sit there and block 95% of what you do on reaction. Usually, if Haku can block you, he can counter you. He can cut through some of ignis' specials, and can turn the battle against you very quickly. His neutral game, damage, and mix up are all better than yours. This is an uphill battle for Relius, moreso than it is for Carl. I hate that match up. Mu/Lambda are better matchups than Haku imo. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Arifureta Report post Posted February 5, 2012 Relius/Haku is in Haku's favor all day. He can just sit there and block 95% of what you do on reaction. Usually, if Haku can block you, he can counter you. He can cut through some of ignis' specials, and can turn the battle against you very quickly. His neutral game, damage, and mix up are all better than yours. This is an uphill battle for Relius, moreso than it is for Carl. I hate that match up. Mu/Lambda are better matchups than Haku imo. Blocking is pretty much something everyone does and not a Hakumen specific thing. If you treat him as a character with a DP then I think you'll be in better shape overall. Worst case scenario, just stick to your actual blockstring and don't get greedy I agree that his neutral game and damage are better than Relius, but his mixups aren't really anything scary. I feel it's the same as Relius in that it's good that he has them, but you're not going to be scoring a lot of overheads consistently. Plus he needs heat for his overheads so his mixup really isn't anything special. In my opinion, if he's close enough to be doing mixups then it's a good thing because now I don't have to worry about getting in, which I feel is the most problematic part of this matchup. Lambda matchup is just hell though. There is literally no neutral game because she will be pressuring you from full screen. Even summoning Ignis takes more thought than usual because if you get careless, that's a free hit. Although thankfully she doesn't have a lot of answers when you actually do get close. Didn't mean to spark productive banter, lol. But it's good to get a feel on this match. Ahaha, yeah. I'm looking forward to Kurushii's assessment of this matchup. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kurushii Report post Posted February 5, 2012 Guardian has been playing Sans so unless I figure out different options to use then my assessment is going to be very similar to his view. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kurushii Report post Posted February 14, 2012 Closing this thread and starting a new one in celebration for NA. It'll be in the archives if info is needed from it later. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
