[CSE] Jin vs Ragna

[Moy_X7]

The Neutral Game

Long Range: Your Tools vs His Tools

His dashing 2A will beat your j.C all day if you're not careful and 2B low profiles under it, other than that, j.C is still a pretty decent poking tool. It's actually not that common for Ragnas to attempt 2A and 2B AAs but it is something to keep in mind, if he doesn't AA you then he'll at least get in on you and start his pressure.

Your 3C low profiles under his max range 5B. You can still zone the crap out of him with Ice Blades (TK j.236C usually) though. Use 5D sparingly. He can actually get a pretty decent combo off a 5C CH now so be careful when using your own 5Cs and 5Ds. 5B still shits on your 5C though from what I've seen. I would keep the use of 2D to an absolute minimum, he can really fuck you up now if you're to whiff it. j.C is still a godly air-to-air tool and will beat most of his stuff in the air.

Medium Range: Your Tools vs His Tools

I'd refrain from using 2A to poke, if he's a couple of frames faster than you with 2A or 5B then you're in for a world of hurt (/Task). 2A low profiles pretty well against his j.B. His j.C still looks pretty godlike as a jump-in tool, I'm placing my hope on the new 2C with EXTRA head I-frames to at least try and stop it, but we'll see. He can AA you out of your j.Bs all day with 5A and 6A so keep the j.B jump-ins to a minimum. Look out for random GHs. j.B is a pretty useful air-to-air.

Close Quarters: Your Tools vs His Tools

5B, use it and abuse it. For the love of all that's good, sharpen that reaction time of yours in order to block 6B. You do NOT want to get hit by 6B at this range in this game, at all.

Offense

Your Offense:

You're going to have to be on the look out for IB flashes as that's usually your cue to JC whatever you're doing and bait ID. Try to force him to push you out with Barrier block or you push yourself out with 2A pressure, that way you'll be able to do max range 5C > 2D where you'll be out of ID's range and you'll also be able to reset pressure.

His Offense:

Be mentally prepared to react to 6B after 2A and 2B at close range as well as during wake-up. He can gatling into 6B from 5A and 2C but that's not as common as the two former gatlings. He'll most likely go for Gauntlet Hades after he has pushed you out a bit, the odds of this happening are higher if he has the meter to RC as GH is rather unsafe on block. Speaking of RC'ing, he'll most likely RC Hell's Fang and Gauntlet Hades follow-ups to mix-up, reset pressure, frame trap you or all of the above. Be wary of 6D > j.D as he can do j.D close enough to the ground, feint it, and do a dashing 2B instead.

If he sees that you have the meter to RC a DP, then he'll most likely space his Death Spike just perfectly so that he isn't hit by any of your DPs. To add to that, if he finishes a corner combo with Hell's Fang > Follow-up, he's at a perfect range to use Death Spike and have it so that all of your DPs will whiff.

Although it's usually rare for Ragnas to use Hell's Fang during block-strings, be ready to play rock-paper-scissors with the guy here if you fail to IB it.

Rock - He'll use ID since he's at a frame disadvantage and can use that to his advantage.

Paper - He'll condition you into baiting ID and reset pressure/go for a mix-up.

Scissors - He'll go for the follow-up which results in a pseudo-frame trap.

If you IB Hell's Fang then just punish him with a jab or 5B for acting the fool lol.

Defense

Your Defense:

You should try to IB DP D as much as possible, just bear in mind that he can JC 5A, 3C, and 6A on block to bait your DPs, 3C being the most common JC'd move. The second hit of his 6C is JC'able as well, he'll most likely go for a JC Barrier away since that move is unsafe and easily IB'd. Not really something to worry about since Ragnas hardly ever bait DPs off JCs. They will try to bait your DPs from things like 22C stagger, 2C, j.D, and j.C on IB so exercise caution. One would think that a good time to DP would be after IB'ing 2B since it's not JCable but be careful as that can also be used to bait DPs. If he does, you IB it but you don't bite with the DP, then he just lost his pressure.

If he's getting greedy with 5B/5C > Death Spike at max range, then IB his 5B/5C and go for a 5C CH > 2D combo. If he's doing back to back max range Death Spikes and you're on the verge of getting guard crushed, then throw out a 5D if you expect another Death Spike as that will beat it cleanly. Only use 5D if you absolutely believe that he'll be spamming Death Spike, otherwise he'll fuck you up with 5B and 5C. Of course, the safest way to deal with Death Spike is to just jump forward and over it. It's not an air unblockable move so there's not much to worry about.

He might try to reset pressure by JC'ing 3C or 6D, be ready to AA with Fubuki, j.A, and air-throws or simply use that gap to escape pressure. He'll also try to reset pressure by doing 6D > j.D and as mentioned before, that's an easy IB and if you're gutsy, then try using a Gold Burst here if you IB j.D. Reason being is that you don't run the risk of getting a DP baited AND you can turn the tide since Gold Bursts are positive on block. However, if you don't time your Gold Burst perfectly then you'll get a Green Burst, something that you don't want to happen. That and the Gold Burst can be baited. The other way to deal with 6D > j.D is to IB Barrier both 6D and j.D, if not, then just IB Barrier j.D. Another option for using Gold Bursts, is to use your Gold Burst after recovering from a 22C stagger, most people don't see it coming. Don't expect for every Ragna to react in the same way, some Ragnas will look for a reversal/Gold Burst, bait it, and continue to pressure.

List of Ragna's moves that are negative or neutral and/or used to reset pressure if you're too respectful:

5B max range (-7) - Ragnas throw this out to poke and sometimes without gatling into anything on block but they usually confirm it into 5C on hit. Be careful if you wanna push buttons here because you can get frame trapped.

2B max range (-3) - same as above, they'll be throwing it out to poke and sometimes they won't gatling into anything. Same as above, could be used as a frame trap.

2C (-2 on IB) - an easy move to IB, they can use it as a frame trap just as the above.

5C max range (-5) - this one gatlings into 2D at max range and can be special canceled with GH for a high/low long range mix-up. If they don't gating into anything then use that to your advantage to get in on him.

2D (-4) - this one has no gatlings and can't be special canceled. This is your cue to reverse the situation. Use whatever feels right depending on the distance at which he has used this. You're at a huge advantage if you IB this. Beware of RCs.

214A (-4) - as mentioned above, this is your chance to turn the tables.

Dash Cancel (-4) - if you IB before the dash cancel then this move is punishable by 5B. No decent/good Ragna is going to use this one though.

His Defense:

Ragna is the master of IB > DP but luckily for you, most of your normals are JC'able on block. So once again, look out for the IB flash and be ready to bait DPs. This is specially true if he has the meter to RC out of it, the same deal goes for wake-up DPs. If the Ragna has good reactions, then he'll most likely use 5A/6A to AA you if you're getting too greedy with those j.B/j.2C pressure resets. Speaking of AAs, be careful when doing IAD cross-ups as he can just 5A you out of them. Don't get too greedy with 5C > 2D as he can just dash out of 5C block-stun if he IBs it and he WILL. FUCK. YOU. UP. You do not want to whiff 2D against him, EVER, as that's an easy 4K+ for him now.

Gimmicks and Resets

Gimmicks

Here's a list of all of his common gimmicks thus far, say thanks to the nice opposing Ragnas lol:

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?12309-The-Funny-Things-I-Do-With-Ragna

Resets

As far as resets go, he'll most likely try to attempt a reset using something like 5B max range > 5C > Hell's Fang (no follow-up) > reset. Not too common for Ragnas to go for resets outside of that, just the common air throw vs air tech.

Match Summary

This match-up is going to suck now. Ragna hits fucking hard in this game and we've lost a good chunk of potential damage thanks to the 6C and j.C nerf. Other than that, the match-up is fairly similar to what it always has been. Zone him, and zone him hard. R

A few words regarding the overall matchup from one of our Ragna mods:

• ragna's offense is based all around mindgames; while he may have shitty pressure and shitty mixup, all of his moves have a lot of potential. however, keep in mind that no matter how good the ragna player's offense and general play is, blocking correctly will severely limit his options.
  
• a legitimate ragna vs. jin matchup will mostly consist of footsies, and whoever gets in first will possess the momentum throughout the match. in my opinion, it is a jin player's job to make sure that ragna never gets in to you and to know where his weak spots are (i.e. pressure holes and knowing what setups can be punished).
  
• ragna can easily shut down your aerial game if the player knows how to utilize his moves. make it a tendency to stay on the ground, and use a lot of your moves that are plus on block to your advantage. (for example, you can use 6B to create situations where ragna has to guess what to do afterwards, and each option that he has can be countered by something you can do)
  

[LuminAbyss]

Just wanted to note, Hell's Fang and Gauntlet Hades follow-ups have lost their primer breaking status, so RCing them usually will just lead to mix-up and continued pressure.

Jin also still gives Ragna a bit of a hard time in the air, so keep that in mind for offense.

5A and 2C into 6B are becoming more and more used, but 6B is still 24 frames, so in most strings (with the exception of off 2C or off rapid cancels), you can 2A him or grab him out of it. Learning to react to it will help a lot, because a good chunk of our damage comes off of it, and our mix-up otherwise is pretty weak.

Also watch out for the 3C > 2D frame/jump trap. That's a gatling many people (Ragna's themselves included) forget exists.

[Moy_X7]

Cool, thanks, I'll update the thread with that info.

As for the frame trap, I make it a rule to not push buttons on moves that gatling into other moves unless I'm absolutely positive that a IB > jab will work lol. That's just me though and it might come in handy for other people later on.

[Tong]

Lumin, many Ragnas suffered and died for the secrets of this match-up and you just spill them out? >:

Oh well, let me add:

Ragna is free against jump-outs/chicken from his pressure, which is good for Jin since he can pretty much dominate air space. Of course, if he's watching for it, he'll try to 6A/AA under you.

So save your doublejump and airdash just in case.

5C will always hit whenever 5B is... this means the classic 5B 5C 214A 50/50 Mixup. If you can't manage or afford to IB Hell's Fang (Ragna will always lose in this case), do 1+A+B+C Option Select.

If he either tries to grab or inferno divider you, the OS will save you. Works for both on hit Hell's Fang and blocked. However watch for pressure resets and analyze your opponent's behavior, sometimes it's just better to risk a reversal.

[KayEff]

i'll post what i know

A dashing 2A will beat your j.C all day if you're not careful and 2B low profiles under it, other than that

i've never heard of a ragna who uses 2A as an anti-air, since it doesn't really have that good of a hitbox. i've never heard of a ragna who uses 2B whenever someone is in the air either, but to each his own i guess.

Be mentally prepared to react to 6B after 2A and 2B at close range as well as during wake-up.

any good ragna will rarely gatling 6B off of any move; standalone overheads are far scarier and work a lot more often than those that are chained from other normals.

If he sees that you have the meter to RC a DP, then he'll most likely space his Death Spike just perfectly so that he isn't hit by any of your DPs.

to add to this, hell's fang > tsuika puts ragna in a perfect position where any DP will miss him and he can use dead spike safely. if you do not see the ragna player move at all after hell's fang, do not DP. chances are he's trying to space you out with dead spike before going in.

just bear in mind that he can JC 5A, 3C, and 6A on block to bait your DPs, 3C being the most common JC'd move

i wouldn't worry about this too much; the only things ragna players can do off of those (except 5A, but that rarely lands on people since it whiffs on crouchers) is jump cancel or special cancel, and special cancelling off of those moves limits the options and provides shitty mixup for the ragna player. if you see the ragna jump from 3C or 6A, simply use fubuki A or maybe 2C if it proves to be a good anti-air. if you're gutsy, you can even air throw.

6D is a pseudo-jump cancel and can also be used to bait your DPs.

6D is more used as a pressure tool, and if it baits anything, it baits throws, not DPs. 6D has a very slow startup, so you can react to the startup of 6D with a DP and simply make him whiff the move, though it's a little risky.

If he's getting greedy with 5B/5C > Death Spike at max range, then IB his 5B/5C and go for a 5C CH > 2D combo. If he's doing back to back max range Death Spikes and you're on the verge of getting guard crushed, then throw out a 5D if you expect another Death Spike as that will beat it cleanly. Only use 5D if you absolutely believe that he'll be spamming Death Spike, otherwise he'll fuck you up with 5B and 5C.

a very simple answer that anyone can do to avoid dead spike (if you see it coming, of course) is to just jump over it. dead spike isn't an air unblockable move so if you do happen to get caught blocking it (which you shouldn't), the worst thing that can happen is ragna's shitty post-dead spike mixup, which you can easily disrespect if you know you can call the ragna player out.

He might try to reset pressure by JC'ing 3C or 6D, be ready to AA with Fubuki, j.A, and air-throws or simply use that gap to escape pressure. He'll also try to reset pressure by doing 6D > j.D and as mentioned before, that's an easy IB and I would recommend that you use a Gold Burst here if you IB j.D.

i would not recommend gold bursting after IB j.D. 6D > j.D > almost any move is absolutely airtight, even if you IB everything. in most cases, you'd end up green bursting on mistake. even if you manage to sneak a gold burst before the move after j.D finishes its startup, there is a chance that the move will recover before the gold burst can hit. sure, the gold burst puts you at plus, but i would personally save the gold burst for some other time; 6D > j.D mixup isn't particularly scary anyways.

Use your Gold Burst after recovering from a 22C stagger, most people don't expect it. Remember kids, Gold Bursts are a rich man's IB > DP

this is something i would only suggest to people who abuse 22C, i.e. bad or sub-par ragnas. any good ragna will keep their 22C use to a minimum. the reason is because something like a gold burst or a well-timed reversal can easily reverse the momentum of the match towards the opponent's favor. however, they do happen by all kinds of players alike (good and bad), and it's what they do after 22C that distinguishes the skill for the move. some good players tend to backdash in order to bait any reversal that the opponent would do, and would thus make your reversal or gold burst used for nothing. there's very little risk involved too; the ragna player can simply apply mixup after the backdash if the opponent does nothing. just make note of what the ragna player likes to do, and try to use those tendencies against them.

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?12309-The-Funny-Things-I-Do-With-Ragna

As far as resets go, he'll most likely try to attempt a reset using something like 5B max range > 5C > Hell's Fang (no follow-up) > reset. Not too common for Ragnas to go for resets outside of that, just the common air throw vs air tech.

there are plenty of resets that ragna can use that, although most of them use heat, are very scary if used correctly. i will save this for you guys to discover though; it's my technology after all （　｀ω´）

as for my personal two cents on the matchup:

• ragna's offense is based all around mindgames; while he may have shitty pressure and shitty mixup, all of his moves have a lot of potential. however, keep in mind that no matter how good the ragna player's offense and general play is, blocking correctly will severely limit his options.
  
• a legitimate ragna vs. jin matchup will mostly consist of footsies, and whoever gets in first will possess the momentum throughout the match. in my opinion, it is a jin player's job to make sure that ragna never gets in to you and to know where his weak spots are (i.e. pressure holes and knowing what setups can be punished).
  
• ragna can easily shut down your aerial game if the player knows how to utilize his moves. make it a tendency to stay on the ground, and use a lot of your moves that are plus on block to your advantage. (for example, you can use 6B to create situations where ragna has to guess what to do afterwards, and each option that he has can be countered by something you can do)
  

[Moy_X7]

Woot, thanks for the insight, KayEff. Lots of good stuff to be picked from that.

[Moy_X7]

i've never heard of a ragna who uses 2A as an anti-air, since it doesn't really have that good of a hitbox. i've never heard of a ragna who uses 2B whenever someone is in the air either, but to each his own i guess.

I've seen it happen very rarely but it is something to keep in mind.

any good ragna will rarely gatling 6B off of any move; standalone overheads are far scarier and work a lot more often than those that are chained from other normals.

As true as that might be, we still have to worry about 6B gatlings. It's one of Ragna's most common options during pressure.

to add to this, hell's fang > tsuika puts ragna in a perfect position where any DP will miss him and he can use dead spike safely. if you do not see the ragna player move at all after hell's fang, do not DP. chances are he's trying to space you out with dead spike before going in.

Good stuff.

i wouldn't worry about this too much; the only things ragna players can do off of those (except 5A, but that rarely lands on people since it whiffs on crouchers) is jump cancel or special cancel, and special cancelling off of those moves limits the options and provides shitty mixup for the ragna player. if you see the ragna jump from 3C or 6A, simply use fubuki A or maybe 2C if it proves to be a good anti-air. if you're gutsy, you can even air throw.

True, I rarely see Ragnas even attempt to bait DPs outside of wake-up.

6D is more used as a pressure tool, and if it baits anything, it baits throws, not DPs. 6D has a very slow startup, so you can react to the startup of 6D with a DP and simply make him whiff the move, though it's a little risky.

Same, I've actually never seen anyone try to bait after 6D. They usually do it after j.D.

a very simple answer that anyone can do to avoid dead spike (if you see it coming, of course) is to just jump over it. dead spike isn't an air unblockable move so if you do happen to get caught blocking it (which you shouldn't), the worst thing that can happen is ragna's shitty post-dead spike mixup, which you can easily disrespect if you know you can call the ragna player out.

You're right, jumping over it is usually the safest choice.

I would not recommend gold bursting after IB j.D. 6D > j.D > almost any move is absolutely airtight, even if you IB everything. in most cases, you'd end up green bursting on mistake. even if you manage to sneak a gold burst before the move after j.D finishes its startup, there is a chance that the move will recover before the gold burst can hit. sure, the gold burst puts you at plus, but i would personally save the gold burst for some other time; 6D > j.D mixup isn't particularly scary anyways.

That's true, there's always the anti-Gold Burst OS. That and Ragna needs to do j.D a little high off the ground or else you'll get a Green Burst since the j.D > jab link is tight.

this is something i would only suggest to people who abuse 22C, i.e. bad or sub-par ragnas. any good ragna will keep their 22C use to a minimum. the reason is because something like a gold burst or a well-timed reversal can easily reverse the momentum of the match towards the opponent's favor. however, they do happen by all kinds of players alike (good and bad), and it's what they do after 22C that distinguishes the skill for the move. some good players tend to backdash in order to bait any reversal that the opponent would do, and would thus make your reversal or gold burst used for nothing. there's very little risk involved too; the ragna player can simply apply mixup after the backdash if the opponent does nothing. just make note of what the ragna player likes to do, and try to use those tendencies against them.

Noted, it's not like every Ragna will behave as how I want them to behave lol.

facepalm.jpg

there are plenty of resets that ragna can use that, although most of them use heat, are very scary if used correctly. i will save this for you guys to discover though; it's my technology after all （　｀ω´）

D:

as for my personal two cents on the matchup:

• ragna's offense is based all around mindgames; while he may have shitty pressure and shitty mixup, all of his moves have a lot of potential. however, keep in mind that no matter how good the ragna player's offense and general play is, blocking correctly will severely limit his options.
  
• a legitimate ragna vs. jin matchup will mostly consist of footsies, and whoever gets in first will possess the momentum throughout the match. in my opinion, it is a jin player's job to make sure that ragna never gets in to you and to know where his weak spots are (i.e. pressure holes and knowing what setups can be punished).
  
• ragna can easily shut down your aerial game if the player knows how to utilize his moves. make it a tendency to stay on the ground, and use a lot of your moves that are plus on block to your advantage. (for example, you can use 6B to create situations where ragna has to guess what to do afterwards, and each option that he has can be countered by something you can do)
  

All good shit, I'll be sure to update the thread with this info.

[MashThat5A]

Continuing on the 6D>j.D conversation, a better way to deal with it is to at least barrier block 6D, and IB barrier j.D. This will give you a lot of breathing room.

i wouldn't worry about this too much; the only things ragna players can do off of those (except 5A, but that rarely lands on people since it whiffs on crouchers) is jump cancel or special cancel, and special cancelling off of those moves limits the options and provides shitty mixup for the ragna player. if you see the ragna jump from 3C or 6A, simply use fubuki A or maybe 2C if it proves to be a good anti-air. if you're gutsy, you can even air throw.

3C goes into 2D as well, but yeah, never really seen either of those used to bait DPs. Most common ways are 2B>nothing and 2C>nothing, since both are safe on IB but unsafe on most gattling/cancel options.

[Moy_X7]

Thread updated, thanks a lot people