[Accent Core] Order-Sol General Discussion

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Also, dunno if this is old news or not, but Fafnir will link after a Lvl2 BHB even without the staggering hit (IE near max range Lvl2 BHB). This can still lead to a dashing 2S, 5HS SJ IAD combo on certain characters.

Oh wow, that's pretty cool. If my math is right, a 4 frame link, so not too bad to do. Nice when you just want some damage.

[Hintalove]

Or if you just want to kill some one. I think we mentioned that a bunch of pages back in the combo thread and there was also limited discussion of trying to link it off lv1bhb or even 6h depending on how well you know your opponent. Does any one ever do ID into fafnir?

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Or if you just want to kill some one.

......same thing?

I think we mentioned that a bunch of pages back in the combo thread and there was also limited discussion of trying to link it off lv1bhb or even 6h depending on how well you know your opponent.

Yeah it's possible off of both of those, but very hard off of 6HS. The level 1 BHB is harder than level 2 obviously, but more damage thanks to fewer hits.

Does any one ever do ID into fafnir?

I have actually never tried this.

[WUT]

On Testament: 5D jc j.HS, jc j.HS, land... - j.HS, j.D djc dj.HS, dj.D, land, j.HS, j.D djc dj.HS, dj.D xx Lvl2 BRP (168) - Fafnir, j.HS, j.D djc dj.HS, dj.D xx Lvl2 BRP (181) - Fafnir, j.HS, j.D djc dj.HS, dj.D, land, dashing j.P, j.HS, j.D djc dj.HS, dj.D xx Lvl2 BRP (192) - Fafnir, dashing j.HS, j.D djc dj.HS, dj.D, land, j.HS, j.D djc dj.HS, dj.D xx Lvl2 BRP (197) Might be worth it. The last combo is rather hard to do timing-wise, seeing as you have to hit the Fafnir while Testament is still higher up in order to land a dashing j.HS. Most of it's corner only, as well...

[Hatred Edge]

So when was it discovered that j.K crosses up? Didn't someone say Order-Sol has no cross ups? Or was that Sol?

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

He has crossups, they're just harder to set up than they are in other games. In addition, something I've noticed about GG is that generally, when you cross someone up, they get pushed away from you when you land. This is different from all the other fighting games I have played, where crossups leave you closer than a regular jump in. The end result is that often, combos after crossups are HARDER in GG, rather than easier like in other games.

[Hintalove]

I don't really understand j.k's backwards hitbox. It's not a cross up you can depend on like Jam j.h or ky j.s. That said, I guess some one should put in the ground work on that:vbang:

[WUT]

There's a hitbox on the knee only. That's why getting the move to actually cross-up is such a pain: you have to be ridiculously deep for it to hit. The other problem is that, due to GG's wakeup cross-up guard protection thingamajig (you cannot cross someone up 1F after wakeup invincibility ends unless you use a move that knocks the opponent down backwards, mostly certain air throws. This is the same reason a meaty GB doesn't cross up unless they FD as soon as possible), j.K takes considerable amounts of timing to even successfully register as a cross-up rather than just a meaty that can be guarded standing in either direction. That being said, there are setups for it, such as the ones I posted, but the damage output usually isn't worth the effort unless you spend considerable amounts of Charge + Tension. Lvl2 Charge + 25% Tension for ~170-180 damage is rather mediocre, even if it is off a jumping cross-up.

[reaVer]

Meaty GB doesn't crossup? Are we talking about something like 5K-S2D GB(whiff) GB? Because I'm pretty sure that that thing crosses up.

[WUT]

Yeah, and the 2D xx Lvl1 GB, Lvl1 GB cross-up works because it doesn't hit on the first non-invincible frame. If you do 5K, 2D xx Lvl1 GB FRC Lvl1 GB it will not cross-up, even though it's the same positioning.

[Hintalove]

When you say specifically that x > 2d lv1 gb ac frc lv1 gb wont cross up, do you mean that you can block it universally as long as you're holding any direction, or that you have to block it back ther other way? edit: that set up does infact cross up properly.

[WUT]

Make a liar out of me why don't you? I realized the Lvl1 GB FRC GB did cross up after posting it. That was a bad example, I suppose. I did however look at the wake up timings for knockdowns and most seem to center around 32-41 frames (excluding ABA, Robo-Ky and HOS, but Robo-Ky/HOS probably reflect the characters they're based upon). Since GB has 44F of total recovery, you're looking at 67F minimum to perform Lvl1 GB, Lvl1 GB. FRC'ing puts it at 56F minimum, still above the threshold. Of course this isn't taking into consideration the amount of time it takes to actually reach knockdown state via 2D, as I would assume that closes the gap that I'm unable to account for. The addition of 16F (assumption, seeing as you can CC 2D and link a 5K) might make up this difference.

[Hintalove]

Zappa also has a wierd wake up time. I wasn't intending to make a liar out of you or anything, I was just confused how the mix up that has the ighest success rate for me(at least in the realm of GB stuff) didn't cross up, and considering I don't have to block it often I went and tested it. I'm not quite sure what the frame data you are throwing out means exactly, but I think any good order sol will know when they are doing meaty gb vs overly meaty gb, or even late gb(to bait throw/reversals vs certain characters). Getting back to general discussion, any one use combos like 2h RC running 5s s h lv2 brp, or a similar combo? I do it rarely when I'm at lv2 and do a midscreen 2h with only 50% meter. I understand that you could just as easily combo into lv2 RI, but the brp lets you retain some of the charge and honestly isn't even that bad of damage.

[WUT]

I was j/k about the liar part. Silly text not accounting for emphasis in words. The frame data was just me trying to support my claim that meaty GB doesn't cross up thanks to whatever weird wake-up mechanic GG uses to guard against such events, which was used as a point to showcase that a meaty j.K won't cross-up either. I wasn't questioning whether HOS players would be able to account for such intricate (and rather pointless, really) specifics in the frame data. If 5K, 2D Lvl1 GB, Lvl1 GB crosses up for you then stick with it. If it works then don't fix it. As for the other question: if I'm spending 50% on 2HS RC I want it to be worth it. I'll generally always go for 5S©, 5HS xx Lvl2 RI at the very least. If I've got 75% 2HS RC Fafnir is great damage off a high if you can convert it to a DL, or I will opt for a dashing 5S© xx Lvl1 BHB, Fafnir if I need to push them closer to the corner to DL. Less damage, but it's more flexible. Although 2HS RC is a very nice setup for the 5HS xx Lvl2 BRP, AC FRC dash buffered 2HS, 5K link trick. You're still spending 75% in that instance, and the chances of them eating two 2HS, one of which is easily telegraphed, are slim.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

If you have no charge, a combo you might want to try off of 2HS RC is dash 5K-5HS -> CC, 5S©-2D for the knockdown. I forget how much damage it does, but it's generally better than anything else you're gonna get off of a 2HS with no extra Tension or charge available. A side note, dunno if anyone else has checked this, but on characters that can duck under your 5P (like Zappa), 2P-5P leaves you at only -1. You still have to wait about 4 frames to throw them, but it's a good setup and you may still get a counterhit out of it if you throw 5K out ASAP.

[WUT]

Minor nitpick: 2P, 5P leaves you at -2. Same situation applies, except that a 5K cannot be interrupted without a throw or invincibility. 2P is a Lvl 1 move = 9F of guard stun. 5P total animation = 11F.

[reaVer]

Hmm, wait a sec... You have to GB early to make it a guaranteed crossup in a GB setup so this whole stuff has been wrong from the start:P So you can actually get crossed up during or before meaty. What's more likely to happen is that you cannot get crossed up for several frames after you initiated your own guard, which is something that happens when you hit them on the meaty or any time later. This is for example why a regular GB doesn't crossup unless certain conditions are met(opponent standing or FDing). As for the 2P5P into mixup, perhaps instead of 5King it's a good idea to l1Ri, you'll end up fairly close regardless with +3 so you got full l1Ri mixups available to you. And if that thing hits, it's usually a CH (because it's what you were fishing for) and because it's close enough you can follow up with 2S5H into whatever(or a dustloop when in the corner).

[WUT]

So you're suggesting 2P/5P whiff, Lvl1 RI? They have 18 frames to throw you if you're that close, on top of being able to option select and hit you with a 5HS if your hitbox may happen to be too far away to be thrown. 2P xx Lvl1 RI offers a better scenario, but that's still 7 frames where they can interrupt your offense.

[reaVer]

I was referring to 2P,5P XX l1Ri and yeah they can interrupt my idea. But the idea is, people usually tend to wait a bit before they attempt an interrupt so that if you tried closing the gap with your 'gapless' mixups they autoguard. (If they mash hardcore you can just do 2S6H on repeat)

[WUT]

The only issue I have with this is that you can simply gatling to 5H and CC for +5 and +20 on their guard bar versus RI's +3 and +10 guard bar. The window for punishing is smaller, and you can even take that further by doing 2P, 5K, 5HS, effectively giving them a 2 frame window to do anything. The CH opportunity isn't as strong, but the momentum you maintain is much stronger.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Minor nitpick: 2P, 5P leaves you at -2. Same situation applies, except that a 5K cannot be interrupted without a throw or invincibility.

2P is a Lvl 1 move = 9F of guard stun. 5P total animation = 11F.

5P is 10F total. When you look at the frame data, you have to subtract a frame when doing totals. This is because the listed startup includes the first active frame. This is to simplify calculations when you're trying to figure out what can punish what.

reaVer: The scenario I'm referring to is against characters who can crouch under 5P at point blank range. 2P-5P -> l1RI doesn't apply in this situation.

[WUT]

I thought you only subtracted a frame from the total recovery if the move in question connected, since it takes just 1F for a move to connect and the rest of the active frames are turned into recovery. That just makes my math all silly. That's such an awkward way to note frame data. I understand the practical use but...how contrived. EDIT: Along with this newfound knowledge, I've learned that if you do a 2D xx Lvl1 GB whiff, you have time to throw a 5S© and recover before your opponent gets up. Lol throw baits.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

It shouldn't mess up your math too badly. If you're trying to calculate recovery of a move that connects, you don't even have to look at the startup frames. I mean, this is pretty much the standard way frame data is displayed in most guides. Shit, in most KOF guides, startup is the ONLY bit of frame data they give you.

[excelence]

1 question, what's OS best option after 2s(ch) for damage wise, stun and Knock down?

[solidshake]

lately I've been trying to incorporate L1BRP into my mixup strings to ill effect. unless i'm at max length, i tend to get rocked on block or if i try to follow up a hit. at most i can fish a CH j.H or 6K from it, but it's a bit gimmicky. should i be bothering with this move at all, or is it really just for FRC tick throw?