[CSE] Lambda vs Tager

[kenja0]

Matchup Ranking: 6-4

The Enemy's Assessment: [CSEX] Tager vs Lambda

Overview

Tager is a slow, close ranged, heavy hitting grapple character. His lack of speed is made up in the form of his magnetism. With certain moves, he can pull a magnetized character closer, throwing off their spacing and pulling them in for some pretty scary mind games and mix up.

Lambda is a great zoning character and Tager has major trouble getting in. This would be considered Lambda's best match-up, but that doesn't mean it's a walk in the park. When Tager gets close while Lambda is magnetized, the tables turn, badly.

General Strategy

Good Tools For The Match Up

Backdash:

3C:

5D: A move that should mostly be used to punish poorly timed and spaced Sledge Hammers. CH 5D will lead to 236C, which in turn is big damage.

6D: The best ground zoning tool Lambda should be using. Not only is Tager big enough to get hit by this, this move is jump cancellable, which puts Lambda is a good position to IAD forward or backward when it starts get risky.

4B: A lot of Tager's approach moves are projectile invincible, but not physically invincible. A properly timed 4B will CH Tager for good damage.

236A: At a close enough proximity, this move will phase through Tager. This move is especially useful in our blockstring to get out of the corner.

236B/C: More great punish moves for when Tager is throwing out bad moves.

236D: A good feint to use when Tager uses Sledge Hammer. Properly spaced will CH Tager for some good 236C combos.

214A/B/C: Gravity Wells can be used to make Tager's approach even slower, which may make zoning a lot easier.

Things To Look Out For

Backdash:

Sledge Hammer (236A/B): Sledge Hammer gives Tager a fighting chance against Lambda's D moves. Sledge and Hammer are projectile invincible. With improper spacing, you can get CH out of your zone. Sledge B can be charged; upon release will move Tager forward really far and leave him at +1. You want to IAD backward if you're spaced correctly or block it if you're not.

Tager Buster (360A/B): Always bad.

Atomic Collider (623C): Don't get predicted and jump into this when you're escaping. If Tager is pulling you in from full screen because you are magnetized, throw out any aerial move to stuff him.

Voltic Charge (214D): This move is upperbody invincible. If you do it close up, Tager can cancel into a Sledge Hammer. Use low attacks.

Spark Bolt (41236D): This move beats out all projectiles, except 236236D.

50 Heat

Magna Tech Wheel (236236B):

Emerald Tager Buster (720C):

Conclusion

Will Update With Feedback

[toanenadiz]

MATCH-UP VIDS

Tatsuki vs Yuumura

Koyatsu vs ?

YY vs Yuumura

Goro vs Akira Goro match

Maneja vs Teiga^ ha yome

Maneja vs Kude

Hiro vs Akizuki

tiku vs YY

Naaga vs Guran

Bareru vs Charlotte

Bareru vs Maman

Koyatsu vs Atorasu

tiku vs Purotosu

Mikoto vs ?

Tatsuki vs Akizuki

Pinose vs guruguru tsukai

Naaga vs Guran

Snow Coppella vs YY

Minami vs Gin

Orenren vs Akira Goro?

R tarou vs Tiku

Tatsuki vs Yumura

Buppa vs Yumura

? vs ?

PB vs Sakaue

Gurantsu vs DIA@ kokushoku

Hage vs Yoshiki

Takku vs SAKUMA

Pet vs Yoshiki

Akizuki vs Buppa

Yumura vs Buppa

? vs ?

Yoshiki vs Akira

Tatsuki vs Akizuki

Yoshiki vs Pet

Joy vs Nagatobi

Matsuno vs Kyon

Ogura Tada Daisuke vs Tiku

Petto vs Ame

? vs Maneja

Kagra vs Tiku

Jinren vs Aoba

Shirouto Doutei (Kagura) vs Hiro

Hage vs Shirouto Doutei (Kagura)

Yoshiki vs Akira

Megidolaon vs Mato

Jinren vs Akira

Iori vs Jinren

[M19Kamikaze]

Don't neglect the fact he can charge Sledge now. Also, 214A/B/C really isn't so good anymore. I'm pretty sure the B/C versions are MUCH shorter compared to A version. Add the reload time and you realize that it's not really worth it in this match.

Oh, oh... his charge punch thing (6A, I think?) will eat 236D until it's gone.

Look for those low openings (3C and 236B) when possible and don't just throw out swords like a moron. Unless you LIKE having Tager go from one end of the screen to "I'm in raping distance!"

[Were-Wulf]

What can Lambda do against a Tager that spams sledge? At first i tried drive spamming into combos (6dd / 4dd / 5dd ch hit confirms) and when he started sledging i tried 3c / 5c him but his backdash is goes through everything >.>

In the end he 720'd me twice when i was trapped in the corner. Damn my noob-ness

[hakimiru]

Yeah, i noticed you weren't online. I ll probably be on later today so hopefully we'll meet up then. Also, what can Lambda do against a Tager that spams sledge? At first i tried drive spamming into combos (6dd / 4dd / 5dd ch hit confirms) and when he started sledging i tried 3c / 5c him but his backdash is goes through everything >.>

In the end he 720'd me twice when i was trapped in the corner. Damn my noob-ness

5C counts as a projectile so it doesn't work against sledge. Zoning with 6C tends to work pretty well if you space it right.

[Nedel_3773]

Against Sledge-happy Tagers, you can try and time your 5D so it hits them during their recovery frames, netting a counter hit for a good combo (only do this if you're far away from him!!). This can be risky if they tend to do the follow-up to Sledge Hammer, as it is also unaffected by projectiles, so just watch yourself. 3C can be another good choice with it's long range. If you can guess at what time the Tager player is going to let go of his B button and start moving, then you can time yourself to score a Counter hit and get a pretty good combo also.

The above options are more aggressive ways of dealing with Sledge Hammer, but you can obviously just back off or try and super jump and air dash over him.

And for the record, if you want to be a bit stylish and punish his 720s, just know that 214A/B/C is currently throw invincible and does a Fatal Counter, to which you can combo into 236C. It is also a very good way to zone Tagers away, with their awful mobility and whatnot.

[Were-Wulf]

5C counts as a projectile so it doesn't work against sledge. Zoning with 6C tends to work pretty well if you space it right.

I'm sorry. Aren't all C moves projectiles?

Edit: @ below. Wow, I can't believe I forgot to check Frame data. Thank you.

[toanenadiz]

Nope. Only 5C is a projectile (along with all of her D moves). You can go here and check which moves have notes saying that they are projectile.

[M19Kamikaze]

Sledge-happy Tagers?

236B that shit if he's a mile away and then go back to zoning him out. And since I don't really see much yomi Colliders these days, j.B isn't a bad option either if he's too close, but that doesn't mean "forget he can't/won't throw out a Collider."

[BeaverDeity]

3C and 6C are great ways to shut down sledge if timed right.

[toanenadiz]

I use j2DD->j214D mostly. Then again, I only really fight Tager online and netplay has shown that I don't have the reactions to stuff sledge on reaction with normals.

[kenja0]

Sledge B is kind of funky in this version. Once Tager gets past the startup, he can hold Sledge for an extended amount of time by holding B. If and when he releases B, Sledge instantly comes out- stuffing the majority of punishes we would have been able to get him with prior to Extend.

If he gets through the startup, you're better off blocking it.

[toanenadiz]

If you see him sledge, jump. If he holds sledge, IAD back and jump again. If he releases it, you can pretty much j2DD->j214D him for free if you spaced right. If he doesn't do the follow-up, then it punishes it freely. If he does the follow-up, it'll eat the j2DD but then he would get CH by j214D once the projectile invincibility runs out.

Of course, if you are in range of the follow-up then you should just block.

[kenja0]

-Useful strategies-

Sledge B is +1 on block, so you really need to gauge the range of his attack. Don't jump when he's at the point where he can release it and get to you. You don't want to be falling from a jump after you block it. You also don't want to be caught by it when your IAD backwards.

[susano]

I actually throw the wheel in his direction.

[someonewhodied]

Well I played against a tager offline recently, and I found that 2B and 3C stuffs everything except 360, You can even hit him out of his B sledge midway with good timing.

[BeaverDeity]

Well I played against a tager offline recently, and I found that 2B and 3C stuffs everything except 360, You can even hit him out of his B sledge midway with good timing.

Yeah, any move that isn't a projectile can stuff sledge with the right timing. He's only projectile invulnerable when doing that move, everything else can hit him for free.

[someonewhodied]

Yeah, any move that isn't a projectile can stuff sledge with the right timing. He's only projectile invulnerable when doing that move, everything else can hit him for free.

Yeah, it even lets you dodge J.B sometimes because of the slight crouching and the short duration of tager's J.B

and even if you accidentally 5D his B-Sledge, you can still have time to get out a 2B for a counter hit.

[toanenadiz]

Match-up Ranking: 6-4

General Strategy

Zone. There isn't a real need for you to get close so spend your time keeping him out and controlling the pace of the match. Tager's mobility is ass so you are going to be able to get into the range you want whenever you feel like it unless you let yourself get hit or backed into a corner. Make him frustrated by keeping him out and capitalize on his mistakes while making sure you don't make any. If you are made to block, try to backdash and make his moves whiff and use that time to escape. Tager's moves tend to have huge recovery. Run away, press D and avoid him to beat Tager.

Long range: If Tager doesn't have spark bolt, you are pretty much free to do anything you want. 5D and 6D are amazing against Tager at this range and there is no way he can get close enough to bother you even if you manage to whiff a sword. 214D~C is a good choice as well. Make sure to punish his sledge attempt and if he jumps, push him back with air swords and try to make him land on 236D~C. Tager can't do much about it. He will most likely be walking forward to get into mid-range or charging for spark bolt. If he gets spark bolt, don't play around with him. You can't use 214D anymore and whiffing swords could be dangerous if he punishes with spark bolt.

Mid range (midscreen): This range means that if he sledges a sword, it will either hit you or put him right next to him. Try to back away from this range. You don't want to enter a guessing game with Tager. Your normals at this range are generally faster and would stuff most of his. But you only need to make one mistake to lose to Tager.

Mid range (Lambda's back to the corner): Try to figure a way out. Run under a jump, 236A through him, IAD over him. Anything to avoid being in the corner and losing the ability to put space between you and Tager.

Mid range (Opponent's back to the corner): I would still venture to say stay away from him but since you can easily get a corner combo, you can do some mix-up and try to get that hit into a good combo here. Just always be mindful of his moves.

Close range (Lambda in charge): You probably don't want to be here at all. Run away. First chance you get to jump cancel, do it and never look back. Going for the occasional 4B[2] or tick throw mix-up is fine but your strength is zoning and the risk of getting command grabbed is too great.

Close range (Opponent in charge): Backdash, 5A and jump. Those are your options to get away. If Tager guesses right, you will take damage, get knockdowned, magnetized and the same thing happens again. If just try to block, you would get 360'd. Do your best to get away and don't let Tager do shoddy pressure on you (like 5D > 236B)

Your Best Tools (For This Match-up)

• 
  
• 5D: Forces Tager to stop walking forward for a moment and leads into stalling moves like 236D, 214D and gravity well
  
• 6D: Will hit Tager standing from almost full screen away. Shuts down jumping and gives you the option to jump cancel into more pressure
  
• 2D: If Tager does his superjump C, this will hit him and you can go into 6D to pretty much push him back to where he started.
  
• j2D: Makes punishing sledges extremely easy and pretty much risk free
  
• 214D: Tager can't do much to stop this without spark bolt except jump (which doesn't do much), block (which loses him a primer), or sledge A (you would be able to punish sledge B easily)
  
• Gravity well: Slows Tager down alot. He is pretty much not going anywhere with this on him. Recommended when you get magnetized to burn down the magnetized time
  

Opponent Reversals?

Has A DP?

No. But he does have 360A, which has 7 invincibility frames from frame 3 to frame 10. His backdash also has 19 frames of invincibility (23 total frames).

Has A DP With Heat?

Not exactly. He has 720C which is a 5 frame move that is completely invincible before super flash and if you are within range during the superflash, there isn't anything you can do to not lose over half of your health. But it is a command throw so it doesn't work if you are in the air. You can also use gravity well if you know they are going to do it.
He also has Magna Tech Wheel(236236B). It has full body guard point from frame 1 to 51. He can RC it for mix-up as well. Will beat out of wake-up gold bursts so it can be used offensively if he has 100 meter.

Things To Look Out For

• 
  
• Magnetism: When Tager does a D move, he magnetizes you. This gives special qualities to any moves where Tager's hand glows (6A, D moves, Atomic Collider, command grabs) and he draws you closer to him. Try to stay grounded while you are magnetized to prevent Atomic Collider and do things like making him block 236D or placing a gravity well to eat up the time.
  
• 5A: 7 frames of start-up and its +4 on block. Used for pressure and is the starting point of his pressure typically.
  
• 2D: Travels a great distance and has a huge number of active frames. It is -1 when done at point blank range but he is going to be further away usually so it will be plus. Slow enough that you should be able to hit him out of it easily unless he does something like 5C > 2D as a blockstring. Try to avoid blocking or being hit by this move. If you are magnetized, this has a ridiculous pull on you and can mess up your timing for stuffing the move.
  
• 360A: 10 frames of start-up and has 7 invincibility frames from frame 3 to frame 10. Command grab
  
• 360B: 6 frames of start-up. Command grab.
  
• Atomic Collider (623C): The main draw of this is that it is unblockable so if you are in the air and in range, you will be grabbed. When you are magnetized and in the air, it can pull you clear from across the screen in a matter of frames. Can set up for Tager tech traps or catching you for jumping out.
  
• Sledge hammer and follow-up(236A/236B > 236A): One of the few things that gives Tager an approach against Lambda. Projectile invincible throughout the active frames. Moves him across the screen. He can hold and charge it. He can then cancel into the follow-up to gain another 19 frames of invincibility so punishing his sledge hammer with a projectile is typically risky. 236B is plus on block and 236A is minus. However, he has a guessing game where he can do the follow-up and counter hit you out of whatever move you were going to do to punish 236A. Or he could just 360A and be invincible through your move. However, doing j2DD > delay j214D will punish it for free assuming you have the spacing right regardless of what he does and it can be done on reaction to a sledge. 3C works good as well and will counter hit for a free combo into 236D, 236C or 214D
  
• Gadget Finger (22D): Picks up off the ground and leaves Tager at +3. Tager's standard oki midscreen. Magnetizes you. His options and how you can escape them are explained below.
  
• 720C: Explained above. 50 heat. Has a ridiculous pull-in before the superflash. This can turn around matches
  
• Spark Bolt (63214D) : Tager's projectile. Will eat any of Lambda's projectiles except for 236236D. Is fast enough to pretty much punish anything you throw out at full screen and he can combo from it. However, don't worry about that. It doesn't have projectile invincibility so it is easy to stuff the start-up. It also has a recharge time. If he throws it out and you block it, just try to throw down a gravity well to prevent him from approaching you and waste out the magnetism time.
  
• Magna Tech Wheel(236236B): Explained above. 50 heat. To elaborate, he can RC anytime during the move for a high/low/command grab mix-up. It is essentially like GF oki except he is more plus on block
  

Gadget Finger oki

This is kind of important for this match-up. Read this analysis of how Tager stops certain things after GF from Axis (Tager mod):

They try: Mashing A
It beats: You using Collider, 5C or 6A.
You beat it with: Your own A mashing (you have frame advantage), MTW or 360/720, with the added bonus that if you hit them too early with the grabs (and get purple !!s) they can't tech it because it's a throw counter.


They try: Jumping away and using barrier
It beats: Throw attempts of all kinds,
Goes neutral: if you use a normal since it forces them to land. Using gadget finger again will catch them.
You beat it with: Atomic Collider, Air throw. MTW RC can lead to its own mixup but MTW on its own very much loses here.


They try: Backdash
It beats: 360B,
Goes neutral: with A mashing, Gadget finger.
You beat it with: Varies on backdash, but held 360s can beat it and a held 720 almost certainly will. (Toan edit: Tager can also punish Lambda's backdash with 6C or if he does GF, it will actually drag her back in and he can punish it for free with 360B)


They try: Reversal move (DP, Super or Gold burst)
It beats: everything except blocking and MTW, which beat it unless they can rapid cancel (This is the safest option they have, if they even have it).


They try: Jumping at you and attacking
It beats: Throws,
You beat it with: Mashing A, blocking might let you squeeze a 2C in for big damage.

Conclusion

Patience is a virtue. Tager can't do much full screen while you can so aim to spend most of your match there zoning him and occasionally going for mix-up if you think you can get away with it. Be mindful of spark bolt and being magnetized and just generally play a risk free game and you will most likely be able to win. But if he gets close, you have a rock, paper, scissors situation in which a wrong guess leads to life loss and the same situation.

Other

Edit: Work in progress. Will go over and double check for grammatical errors as well as flesh out some ideas that I don't think I articulated properly tomorrow.

[*] Can either 5A, 5B, or dash 5B to combo after 236B in the corner

[*] 236C > 236D doesn't work midscreen no matter what

[*] 5A hits Tager crouching, regardless of if he is in blockstun or not.

[*] Counter Hit 236B can combo into 6DD > 236C on Tager

[Nedel_3773]

I would say 3C is a good option for spacing and countering 236B. I know I've had success on many Tagers with it, at least.

[toanenadiz]

Added

[Legacy Edge]

So i played yesteray i friend who picked up Tager, and the only think he did was sledge--->360 or throws

So if i understood the thread correctly my best weapons here are

1) 5DD (counter from his sledge) -> 236C -> aerial stuff

2)214A that will counter his 360s ->236C -> aerial stuff

anything else?

[Overheat]

(1.) Depends what range he's sledging from. 5D can be very risky, but if you can use it properly, it's an annoying move for Tager to deal with. I guess you meant 5D CH > 236C?

j.2DD is pretty safe if you're doing it at a far enough distance with proper timing. 3C[3] is also good, since it can lead to a good combo on CH.

(2.) That combo should be fine for now. Might want to make it 214A FC > 236C > Dashing 5C[8] > 4B[2] > 2DD > j.C > j.2C > 2DD > air ender. Easy, and should get more damage than just X > 236C > Y > air ender. 214A definitely can be a good tool to use if you think he's going to use a grab.

Full screen 236D~C and 214D(~C) are also safe, unless he has Spark Bolt available. When he can use Spark Bolt, you've got to play a lot safer.

If he's only doing Sledge and Command Throws, just playing really lame and safe should be enough (and it always is). I don't recommend rushing in, unless the health difference is really great and you're running low on time. Playing lame is a good playstyle to get used to. If you're ever up close, try to get far away as soon as you can.

Another thing I'll suggest is to save your Heat for Counter Assaults.

I also recommend watching some Japanese Tager-Lambda matches to see how they play it.

[Legacy Edge]

Thanks, i guess i should face a 2D aproach of him the same way (5D ch) right?

I used mainly heat for bigger damage yesterday, will try the safer counter assaults today.

Generally i hate that match up lol, even though its supposed to be our best. I always panic A LOT during matches, but that goes 10fold vs tager because he can wreck me so fast if he gets close.

[BeaverDeity]

Pretty much what Overheat said. I'd recommend playing the matchup lame to make the Tager get irritated and prone to making mistakes, while shutting down his aerial approaches with 2D and shutting down his sledge with 6C/3C/Whatever you find useful to stopping it. Spark bolt can be dangerous but 99% of Tager players are really obvious when they're about to fire it so just make sure you can either jump over it/don't throw out too many moves that could be punished by it.