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pktazn

[CSE] Tsubaki vs Mu-12

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5C will pretty much stuffs everything you can think of doing outside a raw 214D, which I'd advise to only throw out when their using Habaya like a madman. Chasing her in the air is out of the question also. J.C pretty much beats all Tsu's air normals. Get in their face and make sure to keep them on the ground. Don't allow them to create a Steins Fortress and having you sitting their blocking the just active lasers. Once your on her don't let up. But of course be wary of her DP. Thats somewhat where reading you opponent and the current match situation will come in handy. If your pressuring them and their low on health, 9 times outta 10 their gonna DP you. So be wary of that. Of course this match up is harder in EX but not impossible. Avoid being in the corner at all times. Know the range of her normals, preferably 6C. Getting hit by a raw one near corner is gonna result in you eating a 5k combo. I'd advise only charging on knockdown because just charging randomly will give her the chance to set up Steins. Also if their setting up steins in a very unsafe manner, feel free to 236x to counter hit. Don't relay on though. I'd only use this if I have charge so I can 22D if its blocked to lessen the unsafeness. But I'd only use this VERY sparingly

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Her DP also has more recovery which makes it easier to score a 3C FC.

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Oh really? Didnt know that. Really should take the time out to study everyones changes. Does our 3C go under her 5C?

It's possible, but you'd need to test it.

I don't see any signs of a change in her DP recovery, Kiba - it's 10startup, 9 active, 37 recovery, -27 frame advantage in both CS2 and EX - THAT said, it's still an easy punish, as it pushes you back just right for a super easy 3C now, whereas before you needed to do a dash something, or a fairly quick 6C, there's a bit more leeway for 3C.

You can beat Ame no Habaya pretty much for free on reaction with 214D or 214B if she does it at the right range (Outside her 5C range, but inside the range for 214B/D); Similarly, if for some bizarre reason, she decides to hold SoD, you can usually beat it by doing 214D on reaction, because by the time they realize you're moving, it's too late for them to release and hit you before the invulnerability kicks in.

Doesn't seem like this matchup has actually changed all that much, except that 236C/D kinda suck now, so it's a lot harder to pressure on that vector.

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I don't know how changes affected this matchup, but I do have a question regarding 236C. Usually before on blocked Sword of Decimation in blockstrings that led into a backdash or a placed stein could be followed up with 236C so you're back in Mu's face.

I know 236C/D is now unsafe so is this not a viable option anymore and can we get easily punished from it. (Of course I'm not going to do it from fullscreen or anything ._.;;; )

I personally would test it out but I've been playing matches against others + learning pressure + learning setups ._.;;

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The changes to 236C/D have just made it harder to get in because of unsafe they are, and even if we do get in with them, we're vulnerable to punishment in most circumstances. Obviously you may have the opportunity to use 236D > 22D and 236C > 214D, but they're unsafe if blocked. I've been poked out of pressure following from 236C when I used it from max range, so yea..

You'll just really have to use your mobility and 214D whenever there is a good opportunity. For instance through habaya and lasers (when there's not many of them).

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236D is minus, but it's only actually unsafe on instant block. It's hardly something you should be spamming but if need be blocking a string while right next to Mu is a lot better than having a bunch of steins in between you two.

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Aaah okay, thanks Kiba, I was wondering about that considering I was reading in the Tager matchups that 236C/D have changed a lot, I was wondering how it affected this matchup as well.

My guess is this matchup is a lot patient than it was before (Then again I think a lot of Tsubaki's matchups these days changed to the point where you have to be somewhat more patient than before...) about where steins go and when to approach, I guess I'll use my best judgement from there.

I've been playing like super aggressive against EVERYONE lately (minus Tager, although every now and then I get overconfident and end up going aggro against him too >>;; )

EDIT: @Stark: Fullscreen is an idiotic move, I learned that the hard way in CS2 when I was first picking up Tsubaki and mashed out 236C like a retard from fullscreen....I've learned better. Though I think now I will only do it with stock + the right situation, I realized there's no huge problems acquiring stock than I anticipated when the game first released and I was having problems. I'm slowly starting to get back into the groove of things with Tsubaki XD

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I was going to make a post on this earlier on but I gave up. With Daedron asking me for help on this I decided to come back to this anyway and make a general post to try and helps others.

With this matchup, you can make it hella easier for you if you take these things into consideration. At the beginning of the match what you TYPICALLY want to do is to go for charge because 236D and 214D especially will help you a lot. 214D helps you to get through not only the projectiles but Mu's 5C too, and 236D can help you to catch the recovery on some of her moves like Totsuka and whiffed long recovery normals. Daedron I was watching you play Bakahyl and you typically went for rushdown. If Mu hits you you'll have to block against her stein oki not matter where you are on the screen and that heavily limits your defensive options especially without stock.

Her normals aren't safe at all and she definately has gaps in her pressure strings. There's something I've come to understand about Mu. If you IB 2C, using a DP will beat all of her options, even if it comes to the cost of you trading with her next attack. It will even catch her if she decides not to followup, or if she stein cancels it, so you don't have to worry about her blocking it in time. Don't just IB to DP though, IB to gain the meter for a CA if you're really worried when blocking against her. So remember, try to IB, and if you IB 2C, just dragon. Of course the better Mu players will eventually RC the 2C to block your DP so that's where the mind games will come in. If she doesn't use 2C in her blockstrings, you've gotta be a lot more patient. She can reset pressure with 2A/2B but IB'ing them will help you to poke her out if your reactions allow you to. In addition, anything Mu does after 6C loses to DP but there's less opportunities here for you to be successful because you won't be in range. You can't even rely on 214D to counter her 6C followups because she can score a SoD FC and you don't want to risk that especially when your back is to the corner. Your followup options will depend on what the Mu player typcially does:

If she does 6C > stein cancel, do nothing. If you IB, you can attempt to use 236D/214D to get in. If she stein cancels with 6D/5D she can block your DP attempts but the options I gave will win if she stein cancels into 2D which she shouldn't be doing really.

If she does 6C > SoD, you can DP. If you use 214D, she'll get FC UNLESS she delays it (even on IB).

If she does 6C > Totsuka/Habakiri, DP, 236D and 214D will win.

Like I said earlier however, if she's out of range you really need to consider the options you have, for example, even if DP beats 2D stein cancel it's useless if you're out of range and she'll punish you for free.

With the j.2C, it's not safe on IB and it should allow you to go on the offensive with some 5A pressure but again the success rate of that is highly dependant on the range. If you're really close you should get her blocking, but if not, YOU'RE better off blocking otherwise she'll probably score some 5C CHs on you. If she cancels j.2C into anything DP and 214D will win.

I dunno about the being Tsubaki's worst matchup, but it's definately a whole load easier when you have backup stock. If you catch my match against Ixis, you'll notice I always almost try to IB-DP his options after 2C, but the rest of the stuff I do him is more yomi stuff, so as you play the opponent more you'll learn about their tendencies and habits.

Remember the key is to:

-IB

-Make gaining stock a priority over rushdown at match start but that depends on the type of Mu player you're playing against.

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So basically, I just need to try and get more charge a bit more.

I'm a bit weary about DP'ing stuff since I'm not exactly good at it on pad, but I should get my new silent stick parts tomorrow so I can finally play this on stick again...just gotta get rid of the rust from not playing on it much.

Also, I saw you use 3C a lot and I guess this is to catch roll techs but also her backdash? I also see him come in with dash 2B a lot which tends to stuff whatever I throw out so maybe I should use 3C there to get a fatal.

Well, at least it seems to go a bit better now but I'm still amazed at what kind of bullshit this character can get away with lol, she really IS noel :V

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it depends on the person I'm playing against, but I do like to try to get some charge at the start of the match. Some people I play like to do unsafe stuff at the start of the match, so i'll watch for that and punish (read, J2C). When I get charge at the start of a match, sometimes I go for a lot, and sometimes I try to go in after getting a bit before she really gets her stuff going.

Last, her 2b as a poke beats pretty much anything you have so keep that in mind.

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Also, I saw you use 3C a lot and I guess this is to catch roll techs but also her backdash? I also see him come in with dash 2B a lot which tends to stuff whatever I throw out so maybe I should use 3C there to get a fatal.

Errol said the same thing in my match with EXonestar heh.

Yea 3C catches her backdash, and it's actually why I opt for 6C sometimes, since that does too. The main reason I used 3C after my combos was really to hit, but eventually I knew I wouldn't due to the range, so I just used that opportunity to trick Ixis into thinking he could punish me. Of course, his 5C will win if I'm further out.

Don't just 'throw out' 3C though, I know how random you can be Daedron :V

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Don't just 'throw out' 3C though, I know how random you can be Daedron :V

I still need to find my new "Throw out randomly" move in CP. The removal of j.236C hurts ;_;

Though a lot of my random shit tends to be mis-inputs...well sometimes :V

In any case, after reading this and him being at 30 wins 2 losses or something like that we are now at 46 wins 8 losses after reading this so my win ratio is going up. So thanks! :D

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new random move is 22b I think. The reward is so high, even though it is slower and requires ch. kind of like mu players mashing 5c.

konan and kiba play somewhat alike now that I think about it, konan was mashing 3c in those sets we saw too.

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IMO i was just running into things like 3c and her shield charges because it was getting so late (the way you were throwing them out was extremely punishable). The way i usually play is to keep tsubaki away untill i can get safely close in and then i will either use mixups or frametraps (something you keep falling in the last few rounds)

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In any case, after reading this and him being at 30 wins 2 losses or something like that we are now at 46 wins 8 losses after reading this so my win ratio is going up. So thanks! :D

You're welcome, everyone makes mistakes, and is something I need to keep telling myself. Bakahyl's playstyle should allow you to acquire some stock and put you in a more comfortable position.

konan and kiba play somewhat alike now that I think about it, konan was mashing 3c in those sets we saw too.

:|

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IMO i was just running into things like 3c and her shield charges because it was getting so late (the way you were throwing them out was extremely punishable). The way i usually play is to keep tsubaki away untill i can get safely close in and then i will either use mixups or frametraps (something you keep falling in the last few rounds)

I take it you're talking about your 2B staggering, since I was trying to DP that but I can't really do it on pad so I just drop my block for no reason lol.

And well, anything I throw out is punishable. Everytime I push a button it's extremely risky while Mu can push buttons 90% of the time without putting herself in danger.

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I take it you're talking about your 2B staggering, since I was trying to DP that but I can't really do it on pad so I just drop my block for no reason lol.

And well, anything I throw out is punishable. Everytime I push a button it's extremely risky while Mu can push buttons 90% of the time without putting herself in danger.

2b> 3c or 2c has a 1 frame gap. While a dp might work, it can lead into rather something big on CH.

edit: 2b is also rather 0 on block. A dp can be baited , because using 2b is similar to ragna trying to do something or not after his 5c

Personally i don't think Mu should care too much about stocks if she plays it safe. All of Tsubaki's tools to approach are minus on block, but it does make Mu feel less safe in the air with 236d and 214d, but both can be easily avoided as if it was Relius' Val Lanto.

edit: i feel that fighting tsubaki is fighting a faster hakumen but with lower damage output and shorter range. Both characters have potential moves that goes through 5c and projectiles but are weak to lows

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If she does 6C > Totsuka/Habakiri, DP, 236D and 214D will win.

6c > totsuka might result into a trade with 214d (or it will force you blocking, it depends on the number of steins), because the lasers will come out after 37 frames (add the 20 frames blockstun of 6c) and if there is more than 1 stein on the field the laser will come back. Not sure if it's always worth it IMO.

6c> habaya wins from a dp (unless you are really close, but i am sure 5c>6c will whiff if you are in tsubaki's dp range) and 236d

With the j.2C, it's not safe on IB and it should allow you to go on the offensive with some 5A pressure but again the success rate of that is highly dependant on the range. If you're really close you should get her blocking, but if not, YOU'RE better off blocking otherwise she'll probably score some 5C CHs on you. If she cancels j.2C into anything DP and 214D will win.

To be fair though, the way how i use j.2c now is to prepare myself for CP. Because in extend it's very unsafe with it's 10 frames landing recovery (and your inability to do something untill you land except a special cancel on hit or block)but it's usefull for fooling the opponent for 2 high attacks with j.b/j.c >j.2c (it's easily dp'd though) or to halt the opponent when he is IAD'in towards you. The rewards for j.2c is normally very low and with the risks it has it is usually not worth it.

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