[CSE] Tsubaki vs Ragna

[pktazn]

Discuss the match-up here.

[TheGreatReptar]

Safejumping Ragna is hard because of his 7 frame reversal. You can only 214B>safejump him if you do 2C©>236B>214B. You'll lose if you do 6C>236B>214B.

Also, autopiloting in your blockstrings will get your killed very quickly against someone who knows what they're doing. He can do stuff like IB 2B and ID you out of 2BB.

[MikelAL93]

Safejumping Ragna is hard because of his 7 frame reversal. You can only 214B>safejump him if you do 2C©>236B>214B. You'll lose if you do 6C>236B>214B.

Also, autopiloting in your blockstrings will get your killed very quickly against someone who knows what they're doing. He can do stuff like IB 2B and ID you out of 2BB.

It's always best to time your moves before safejumping Ragna depending on the situation, like the "2C©>236B>214B" combo you mentioned, for example.

One thing to note is that thanks to Ragna's Carnage Scissors now having projectile invincibility, her j236D is pretty much useless against it now, as the fireball from it will no longer attack Ragna during a match.

[Errol]

Just a note, I'm not sure how many people here recognize the english names for the special moves, but I sure don't. I know all of the japanese shorthands but not this..

[Airk]

Well, how many of our moves actually generate a fireball? :P 1.

[Errol]

Sure, just saying j236d etc is better notation

[Kiba]

I'll gonna put this here since it's still very relevant. Saves the story I guess.

You need to be careful at the neutral position because as Dusk said earlier back:

Spaced Ragna 5B>Tsubaki 5b

Spaced Ragna 5c>all Tsubaki normals

Spaced Ragna j.C>2C

Being at neutral requires you to use alot of backdashing, and if you're really good at reading your opponent you can use 22A. 22A beats Ragna's options at the start of the match too. Don't be so quick to use 5B at neutral either. It's ok, but just not all the time.

Try not to backdash too much when he's running to you. His 5B can catch your backdash and then put you in a worse position.

Even if you're far you can't afford to get greedy with charge because a spaced air dashed JC can catch you. They could even use Hell's Fang (riskier option). You can IB Hell's Fang and punish with 2a - combo, but if you don't IB it, it's a stupid mix up factor which can fall into these:

• It's likely at first that if you don't IB it, they'll ID you after the hit.
  
• When you eventually learn to block it and not press buttons they'll either try to throw you or apply even more pressure. His DP > ours, even the D version, so depending on how well you know your opponent I wouldn't DP after HF hit. Learn to IB it.
  

During pressure you need to know when to backdash or even outpoke him. His 6B can be beat with 2A on reaction and 2D can also be backdashed (not in the corner). Watch out for stuff like 5B - 2C(w) - 5B pressure too. It's a nuisence but when you're more alert about it, you can backdash or 22A him on reaction.

When you're pressuring him however, you need to be careful about the blockstrings you do, especially if the Ragna know's how to IB -DP and they know when.

2BB - anything can be IB - DP'd easily. So you can do something like:

5B - 2B - 2A - 5B - 22C (Still holes of course but you'll need to mix it up)

If the Ragna is really good my gameplay completely changes into trying to break their primers.You have 22C/236C for this. If you're going to jump into him for example use JD to avoid getting hit by 6A and then retaliate with JC. It doesn't work against his 5A though.

Also try delaying blockstrings such as 5CC(delay) if you feel the player is mashing buttons.

Other things:

623A trades with his Deadspike (it'll beat him if you're really close)

You constantly need to be moving in this matchup.

Use unblockables, even if you don't followup so you can get some time to breathe.

236D is good use to get in from not so far range (not so much neutral). Try not to get predictable however. You can score some fantastic CHs with it.

His 5B can hit us if we use J214A/B/C on block despite the pushback.

A baited ID results in us getting 3k + w/o stock and 4.7k+ with stock and a guaranteed corner carry with the right combos. Always use 5C - 5D - dash 5B - 5CC into stuff. If you're in the corner however you can do 5C - 6CC - 623C - J214D - 5C IAD stuff which is 5k.

The character is quite annoying to play against, especially when we're in the corner blocking pressure where you have to sit there and take it. You also need to be extremely observent with his blockstrings.

Don't always pressure him with a 5B starter on his wakeup. His 2B can go under it (It think it's spacing specific though).

Try not to rely on 236D so much as it's unsafe. Remember you have a really good AA which can stop his aerial approaches when you're in range.

Also consider what MashThat5A said earlier:

When dealing with Ragna pressure, make sure you IB 2C and 5C. If he does 2C>5C or 5C>2C then IB and jump out. Know the range where all he can threaten you with is GH (usually after a barrier blocked max range 5C).

If he tries to catch you dashing in with max range 5B, barrier break so his 5B whiffs, and dash 5B in. (Not enough people do this to bait whiffed normals imo) You should be safe to start pressure this way.

I think this is my worst matchup with Tsubaki, and I usually don't know how I could go about it. It boils down to either choosing between charging and scaring the Ragna player with your stock options, or pressuring them. I wouldn't want Ragna to gain an advantage so I'm reluctant to back off and charge. At the same time, I wouldn't want to rushdown without feeling 'resourceful'.

So indecisive.

[Airk]

Even in CS2, basically everything Ragna does is better than our equivalent options. In EX it's even worse. "Just block" isn't an option for most folks, in spite of what people say about Ragna having "bad mixup" he has a ton of options, most of which pay off more for him than they do for the defender.

You need to control the pace of the match, which unfortunately means A) Not having a lot of time to charge, and B) Having to read his Inferno Divider usage like a children's book, because one wrong guess means you are either now blocking his normals, or you're being comboed and flung towards the corner.

2C is a strong option (though it's probably less so in EX based on what I've heard about improvements to Ragna's j.C hitbox), but sooner or later the Ragna player is going to realize that there's basically no reason to jump at you, because he's totally capable of beating you on the ground.

In CS2 it was sortof okay to throw out the occasional semi-random 214A/B/D attacks at the appropriate ranges and try to tag him out of a 5B/5C, but the payout for this has gone down, and the risk has gone way up since he can now punish any blocked 214X with 5A > Combo.

Basically, this matchup is complete garbage. I'd give it like 6.5 Ragna, 6, anyway.

[Kiba]

but sooner or later the Ragna player is going to realize that there's basically no reason to jump at you, because he's totally capable of beating you on the ground.

If this was the case, this match up would be would be way easier for me. I find that j.C is problematic because even if I don't get hit, he'll still have the opportunity to inflict pressure. I may have to throw out 214A/B/D ocassionally to show him that he can't always be fast in trying to get me from that range.

Like I said way back, if he does DS, you can jump over and use j.C > combo, or 22A him on reaction.

[TheGreatReptar]

It's always best to time your moves before safejumping Ragna depending on the situation, like the "2C©>236B>214B" combo you mentioned, for example.

One thing to note is that thanks to Ragna's Carnage Scissors now having projectile invincibility, her j236D is pretty much useless against it now, as the fireball from it will no longer attack Ragna during a match.

Since I made that post, I found that using 214A to end a combo actually launches the opponent high enough to safejump the two 7 frame reversals in the game.

And with j.236D, if you're low enough that Ragna can Carnage Scissors you out of it, and you know your opponent is away that they can do that, you're probably in about the right position to do j.236C to cross up/over. If you just cross over, you can empty cancel into j.214D for a really late and reactable cross over that tends to catch people by surprise. If the j.236C hits, you can rapid it to get a combo off it, or I believe you can get a combo without a rapid on counterhit.

Basically, Carnage Scissors being projectile invulnerable shouldn't really change the matchup too terribly much. Just don't get predictable with the fireball at neutral and mix it up with j.236C to make your opponent think twice before trying to go through j.236D.

[Airk]

If Ragna is giving you problems by jumping in with j.C, you might consider anti-airing with 623B; The invulnerability frames on it start JUST after it becomes active, so as long as you do it early enough that you get off the ground before getting into range of his j.C, then you should win. If he's doing j.C very deep, 2C should be able to beat him.

[Surf]

I'm sorry to go a bit off topic but you guys have mentioned something Ive been seeing JPN Tsubaki players doing. This whole safe jump thing, doing 214A/B after a combo and jumping while their teching is a safer option then 22A/B/C/D'ing them and pressuring more on their wake up? So I'm guessing it shuts down a lot of their reversals options right? Can someone elaborate

[TheGreatReptar]

There's info on Tsubaki's safejump and meaty setups on the wiki http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Tsubaki_Yayoi_(BBCSE)#Offense

Feel free to ask more questions if anything could be clarified.

[Kiba]

If Ragna is giving you problems by jumping in with j.C, you might consider anti-airing with 623B; The invulnerability frames on it start JUST after it becomes active, so as long as you do it early enough that you get off the ground before getting into range of his j.C, then you should win.

That's quite impractical though, and imo shouldn't be considered at all.

[Surf]

Thanks Reptar, didn't know the wiki was updated

I swear j.C's range is just retarded. I don't even bother trying to 2C him half the time because I usually lose. But only the lesser playlevel Ragnas jump around a lot. The more experienced players usually stick to the ground for offense (from my experiences anyways). Half the time I'm just scared to press a button and eat a 3k+ combo. This matchup is nonsense. Seriously

[Airk]

That's quite impractical though, and imo shouldn't be considered at all.

Why is that?

[Kiba]

Because 9/10 times, you get beat.

Also, if Ragna blocks a 2C, you can jump cancel, and deliver pressure, or get away.

If Ragna blocks 623B, Ragna can punish you, or you'd have to use stock to make it 'safe'. Like you said too, you'd have to do it really early.

Not to mention that 623B is also a projectile, and the invulnerability frames begin at the same time as Tager's 2C :/ The 623X series has quite low priority too.

I'd consider 214A to be a better option when you're out of 2C range, because the invulnerability frames start earlier, and CH 214A can go into 6CC. Anyone tried using 214A as an AA against Ragna?

Have you got EX yet? Or, have you played this matchup in EX yet?

[Surf]

I talked to Airk on xbox live and he said he'll hold off on buying the game for now

As for the 214A AA for J.C it seems to work. But you'll have to be very wary of his/your positioning and you MUST be sure the J.C is about to come out. It some cases it would clash or trade but since Ragna would get counter hit you can recover and finish the combo before he hits the ground. If you do it too late or early your gonna get hit though. If a Ragna sees you do this once they'll probably start making their jump-ins extremely ambiguous and hard to read. It seems to work most of the time but just be damn sure hes about to J.C before you commit to it. Seems more consistent than 2C though

[BatousaiJ]

Because 9/10 times, you get beat.

Also, if Ragna blocks a 2C, you can jump cancel, and deliver pressure, or get away.

If Ragna blocks 623B, Ragna can punish you, or you'd have to use stock to make it 'safe'. Like you said too, you'd have to do it really early.

Not to mention that 623B is also a projectile, and the invulnerability frames begin at the same time as Tager's 2C :/ The 623X series has quite low priority too.

I'd consider 214A to be a better option when you're out of 2C range, because the invulnerability frames start earlier, and CH 214A can go into 6CC. Anyone tried using 214A as an AA against Ragna?

Have you got EX yet? Or, have you played this matchup in EX yet?

I'll have to second Kiba on the fact that it's an awful idea to use the DPs as an anti air.

I 2C Ragnas out of their j.C all the time, you just gotta get the timing for it.

If you think that's tough, try to anti air valk's j.C or Hakumen's j.2C. Compared to those, Ragna's j.C is easy to 2C.

As for 214A being used as a anti air, I haven't really tried it much. Anything 2C can't handle is generally the type of air moves that cross you over and in those instances, I'd rather just jump and air throw them as they try to fuzzy cross over me to make my 2C whiff and that'll happen since 2C doesn't have the best auto correction. Other than that though, 2C really is one of the best anti airs in the game and you really shouldn't be looking for alternatives.

[Airk]

Timing on 2C is probably similar to using 2C on Litchi's j.C, which has similar "hitbox extends below the hurtbox" properties.

[Fluck]

You have to be careful with your 2Cs when Ragna still has his air option left though, because the risk/reward is actually in Ragna's favour in that situation. If your 2C gets baited by a double jump, then you'll get hit crouching by a j.C starter which is like 4-5k depending on how close to the corner Ragna is.

[TheGreatReptar]

Just something to take into consideration, 623A can actually whiff against Gauntlet Hades. If you're playing against a dude who using GH's really predictably and you want to punish it, either be magical and 5A them out of it, or have a stock ready to burn on 623D. I would say 2C them, but 5C>GH is too tight to get to the head invul frames of 2C.

[Airk]

Wouldn't it just be better to block and punish Gauntlet Hades?

[Kiba]

You could block the first hit of GH and try to punish, but he could use the followup and get a CH. I'd rather burn 623D than wait there to take that risk. Heck you may even block the first hit and do nothing because you thought he would followup, and then he could jsut restart pressure again.

Like I said in the combo thread, the j.D > falling j.C > Dash 5C > 2CC does not work against Ragna in the corner. The 2C may blue beat and the 2CC will indefinately whiff.

Also, lol PK.

[redsilversnake]

Like I said in the combo thread, the j.D > falling j.C > Dash 5C > 2CC does not work against Ragna in the corner. The 2C may blue beat and the 2CC will indefinately whiff.

Really? Whenever I tried it, the 2C always red beat. But yeah, like you or BatousaiJ said, it's better to use 5C(w)C>2CC>236x>214x>22B/C on him. You lose the chance to get a full stock from the falling j.D, but still get damage and meter, and you can still get some charge from the 22B/C.

As for GH, the first hit is still rather unsafe, so you can still at least get him blocking with 5A so long as you confirm that he lands.