Slayer vs. Potemkin

[deci]

i've played mike z and several other potemkins for awhile now and i noticed that the best way to approach this match up (for me anyway) is like a match from ST (super street fighter 2 turbo). basically, zoning and position. most people pay attention to the zoning but not the position. this allows potemkin to pressure you into the corner where it's harder for you to use your mobility. potemkin wants to catch you. how he does this is to either knock you down or chase you to your corner. since you can anti air all his jump ins, he must figure out a way to get you to either back up, jump, or attack him. so what you want to do is learn how to stand your ground, out poke him, anti air him, and not get pushed to the corner. so the most important thing is to not get hit by slide head or 2d. best way to avoid slide head (although risky) is to learn how to 2h on reaction to it. 2h will hop you over slide head without making you commit to a jump (which will let him jump torwards you since he beats you in the air except for tip of foot j.k range) or a back dash (which lets him move towards you slightly and gain ground). 2h will also counter hit his slide head from a pretty good distance. this obviously leads to some pretty good combos with or without tension depending on distance. just learning how to use 2h to beat slidehead in this match is HUGE. the other thing can use to avoid slide head is to 6k. however i recommend only doing this if you need to move closer to him. once you are close enough (like 2h range, and definitely 5k range) you should use 2h instead to hold your ground. once you are in the correct range, to stay here you will need to out poke him. basically this means 5k a lot. it it hits, combo 5k as far as you can then p mappa. then back dash right away. he really can't beat 5k with anything as long as you keep linking it and are in range. remember if you commit to any attack or pressure (such as p mappa) back dash right after it to get away from potbuster. if he jumps at you, 2s anti air him. if he gets tricky and double jumps or gets you to miss your anti air. try to get away from him (often i'll mappa under him or forward dash... unless he is close to his corner). of course you can also try to air throw him from below if you are good at that, or depending on angle, j.p and j.k work good but they are risky. 5p is risky too but sometimes works here. any time he is really close to you, just use 5p and 2p to make sure you beat anything he can throw out. hit confirm this into combos obviously, or just let it push you out into 5k poke range if he blocks. obviously there is much more to this fight than this. (like what to do vs specific moves, always IBing or back dashing the 6h, etc) but this is my basic game plan vs potemkin. just remember to pay attention to your screen position. if you get too close to your corner, and you get a knockdown on him. hop over him and start zoning him from the other side. just make sure you stay out of your corner. edit: actually i just discovered it is not safe to p mappa after 5k spam if the potemkin is blocking because he will do hammer fall to beat the mappa. of course you can bait the hammer but be careful of hammer break pot buster.

[rtl42]

so, what's the correct range? if I hit with 5K as you are saying, should a 2K-2D be able to connect, or is that too close?

[deci]

so, what's the correct range? if I hit with 5K as you are saying, should a 2K-2D be able to connect, or is that too close?

the safest spot to be is probably the longer 5k ranges where his 5p and pot buster don't reach you. his 5p is 5 frames which is his only move that is faster than slayer 5k (other than pot buster of course.)

it really doesn't matter quite as much though as long as you get your 5k out first. if you're inside your 2p range and you're not sure if you can get that 5k out in time, just 2p first then 5k.

just make sure you watch for his hammer fall. 5k and 2p should both recover in time after 1 hit for you to block it. but keep an eye out for hammer break pot buster. (a good thing to do here is try to ib the hammer fall, then if you see the break animation, just tap back one more time and you'll safely back dash (or bdc jump) the pot buster.

edit: oh another thing i just remembered is you can bdc mappa (or even bdc dandy step) to punish slidehead on reaction. though i still think it is easier and better to use 2h if you are in range. but at long range bdc k mappa does pretty well. avoiding slide head with bdc dandy is much trickier, but also gives you some options for mixup from the dandy step.

these of course are tensionless alternatives to the fairly common knowledge DOT punish on reaction.

[rtl42]

just make sure you watch for his hammer fall. 5k and 2p should both recover in time after 1 hit for you to block it. but keep an eye out for hammer break pot buster. (a good thing to do here is try to ib the hammer fall, then if you see the break animation, just tap back one more time and you'll safely back dash (or bdc jump) the pot buster.

i don't understand your parenthesized tip. isn't the break timing for HF quite variable, up until he's in your face?-- in which case, isn't this getting a bit too far into mindreading your opponent?

point i'm making is, if you're watching to IB the HF, and he's not already in your face, it doesn't seem unreasonable for Potemkin to do an early break-buster, before you can even tap back once.

edit: oh another thing i just remembered is you can bdc mappa (or even bdc dandy step) to punish slidehead on reaction. though i still think it is easier and better to use 2h if you are in range. but at long range bdc k mappa does pretty well. avoiding slide head with bdc dandy is much trickier, but also gives you some options for mixup from the dandy step.

why BDC dandy? you get strike invincibility on start-up, anyways.

[MacArthur Blunts]

You can punish slide head with dandy without BDC just takes timing. Also, 2H will work vs slidehead from VERY far away. Making 2H DOT FRC a VERY good way to get dmg against pot.

[deci]

i don't understand your parenthesized tip. isn't the break timing for HF quite variable, up until he's in your face?-- in which case, isn't this getting a bit too far into mindreading your opponent?

point i'm making is, if you're watching to IB the HF, and he's not already in your face, it doesn't seem unreasonable for Potemkin to do an early break-buster, before you can even tap back once.

why BDC dandy? you get strike invincibility on start-up, anyways.

yeah it's kind of hard to do. and i am only somewhat successful at doing it. but it's just another thing to think about when you are trying to 5k spam pot.

anyway the basic idea is:

while the break timing for HG is quite variable, the situation we're talking about is 5k spam range. so he doesn't actually have that much room to change it up.

the other thing is, you are really basically doing an option select back dash / ib, not actually visually trying to time an ib.

you basically do the motion for a back dash as soon as you see HF and sometimes the first tap back will ib the hammer fall (this probably happens because i react too slowly?). if not, i am already doing the second tap back and it usually gets me away from hammer break PB. however i sometimes get hit by the hammer fall after my back dash because i forget to bdc 1 frame jump.

and like i said before. this is somewhat hard to do in actual games and i'm only successful once in awhile with the ib.

as for bdc dandy. like mac said, you don't need to bdc. i just bdc because it makes it easier. also, i'm somewhat scared to commit to doing a dandy step to avoid slide head.

[MacArthur Blunts]

I was wrong. It doesn't work. But this works for something completly different! Meaty 5P->5P will catch backdash buster. If you have 50% you can 5P->BDC P mappa feint 2D RC->5H->combo Really easy pot oki flowchart... 5P is the name of the game. 5P a. he got hit. combo into 2K-2H-5K-j.S or mappa into whatever for dmg. b. he blocked it. 5P again. 5P your little heart out until he backdashes or gets hit c. he backdashed it. you backdash and chill out right there. 2P is the man right here. From here if he blocks, avoid doing dandy or anything he can potbuster.

[MacArthur Blunts]

more shit that is amazing. 5H vs hammerfall. 5H -> jc SB. This will get you away if he hammerfall breaks or lets it follow through. It reserves your double jump and if you you superjump 2K, best he can do is try to airthrow you. If he FOLLOWS through with it, you should learn to time your jc slashback so it will hit it. follow up with a knockdown. 5H -> K dandy. This is staple hammerfall bait. if you have 25% and can do it, FB pile into a fourth of his life. If you don't, pilebunker or crosswise. Crosswise is best, you'll get corner knockdown. 5H -> S dandy. Use this if you are in corner. sets up a nice range FB pile. as always, use UP if you think he'll swing. post break/FRC. SO, using 5H at a range where he will either throw 5H, hammerfall or slidehead is the BEST IDEA. I believe 5H will beat slide head as well... BUT ALWAYS, if your 5H whiffs, start backdashing. You're not very favorable to jump or throw anything else. so my COMPLETE understanding of this matchup after much exp and research with it is this. slayer safely uses, 2P/5P close. 5K/5S mid and 5H far for offense. it's simple and clean. on block, you pressure a bit, then gtfo. if it hits, do a lotta damage.

[Yonasu]

slayer safely uses, 2P/5P close. 5K/5S mid and 5H far for offense. it's simple and clean. on block, you pressure a bit, then gtfo. if it hits, do a lotta damage.

b. he blocked it. 5P again. 5P your little heart out until he backdashes or gets hit

This (interesting bit starts at 8:40) is whats wrong with thinking that its a braindead matchup, which is the feeling I get from your posts. 5P -> 5P has a gap of 3f = busterable when IB = not spammable against strong players. Usable though and kinda low risk as long as you dont get predictable.

2P - 2P I believe is bustersafe, forgot how much stun IB reduces on lvl 1 moves, so mash away! Unless you play against FAB that is.

5P or 2P is good as oki against potemkin as they recover fast if he backdashes and gives the most frameadvantage if he doesn't, also harder to react to with backdash unless say 6K.

Its a tough matchup as potemkin can deal with pretty much all of your stuff as long as he can read your movement/patterns. My strategy is patiently trying to bait him into stopping a dash or jump and then use his recovery to get in and mix him up. From there I try to see if he is more prone to using buster to stop my pressure or if he is waiting for me to rush in again.

Patience and unpredictability, thats basically the matchup from my point of view.

[Shinjin]

Dogura on Slayer-matchups:

SO→6:4

KY→6:4

MA→5.5:4.5 (5.75)

ED→5:5

MI→5.5:4.5

AX→6:4

PO→5:5

TE→4.5:5.5

BA→5.5:4.5 (5.75)

JA→5.5:4.5 (5.75)

AN→6:4

FA→6.5:3.5

JO→6.5:3.5

VE→6:4

CH→6:4

DI→6:4

IN→6:4

ZA→5.5:4.5

BR→6.5:3.5

RO→6:4

AB→5.5;4.5

OR→6:4

lol

[DandyStepper]

@Yonasu no one is saying that this is a brain dead match up, if it was it wouldn't be a bad match-up in the first place. Mac didnt say "This is what i do against every Pot player every time i knock him down all the time and it makes me win" This thread is up here to help share insight on what can work what doesnt work etc. Saying stuff like "Patience & unpredictability" doesnt really say much when people dont know when to be patience and when to attack/ what to attack with. Specifics, we need them. And dogura needs to stick to his rawboot.

[Yonasu]

I didnt think so either, but from the way he wrote down the "really easy flowchart" I got the impression that it was something he used everytime and that works. And for newer players this could give that impression as well. Its important to remember that there are pretty much no failsafe options against potemkin. I guess one reason this got me going is that I lost money to a potemkin once due to this kind of thinking. I agree that peope need to hear specific uses for stuff but I also believe that if you get to focused on the specifics you miss out on alot of the mindgames behind it all and its also easier to fall into set routines or patterns that makes you easier to read. The stuff you need to be patient about are already discussed earlier in this thread and I didnt feel like repeating it all in my post (basically slow moves, slidehead, hammerfall, 5hs etc. punish with fast moves like 5K j.K dandy etc.). Guess I could have clarified that point more. Unpredictability is easiest described as mixing up playing it safe by taking risks and iad after a jc normal, airdash back after some to bait his slow antiairs, mappa feint once in a blue moon etc. Taking risks is best done in a way that is hard for him to react to and not predictable. For me it is a good mindset though that works against good potemkinplayers. And having a set idea on what kind of gameplan you have helps in every matchup. Hope this clarified my point.

[MacArthur Blunts]

It did Yonasu. I just try to simplify this matchup in whatever way I can as PO punishes risks vs. slayer better than most characters. When I am on offense, up in his face, I want to 5P until I can watch what he starts doing about it and push me to a safe range away from potbuster. My thinking is 5P leads everywhere for slayer, so anything PO does about it can be punished if I react correctly.

[Shinjin]

My thinking is 5P leads everywhere for slayer, so anything PO does about it can be punished if I react correctly.

5p into anything but dandy or jump (both stupid options) is still buster on ib...

2p on the other hand...

[Honnou]

5p->5p isn't busterable IIRC!

[Shinjin]

5p(lvl1 attack) on ib is +-0 5p has 5f startup buster has 3f startup it is buster'able Edit: 5P indeed gattles into itself. You can still IB into normalthrow though.

[EasyModeNub]

I'm at work and the frame data is blocked for some reason so I can't check, but IIRC 2P has a 4f startup. I can't seem to remember if it is 0 on IB. Either way though, if he's going to IB then there's not much he can't buster. That's just a risk you take in this match when you are at close range. Regardless, the 5P on wakeup is still a nice trick that I know I'll throw out to test the waters from time to time.

[Yonasu]

2P has indeed 4f startup and Slayer is at +3 on block with it. IB puts you at +1 which makes me unsure wether or not you are busterable if you do another 2P. I feel that 5P as okizeme is not that good if you consider what you get from using it. The good things people have noted here is that you can react to a backdash with appropriate punish and you are fairly safe on block. If you do a well timed 5P as oki you can actually throw out another one and potemkin cant buster you inbetween. What are you giving up for these advantages? A possibility to do whatever you want. A late 6K which can give you up to +9 frames on normal block, if he IBs youre still at +6. A late 2D which gives you +7 or +3 if IB. Granted these two options are harder to execute but they are both safe against potemkins backdash/buster and give you what 5P doesnt, a mixup. After these options you can then go into using 5P if you want, but with the added effect of a extra mixup before. Also consider what the situation looks like for potemkin if he opts to just defend on his riseup. If you do a 5P he will block it 100% of the time. When playing better players this is probably the option they will go for at first in a serious match, before they see what you do on okizeme. In short: what you get from 5P is a easy somewhat safe okizeme option, a stronger defensive option. What you lose is a free mixup opportunity to force him into a guessing situation, you lose offensive strength. Imho this is a bad trade since its the offensive side thats difficult against potemkin. Id use one or more dashes through him to mess up his execution on wakeup, even though you are punishable if you use it to late. This gives you more offensive possibilities which is what you lack against potemkin and what you want to use your okizeme for.

[sogos]

5p into anything but dandy or jump (both stupid options) is still buster on ib...

5p(lvl1 attack) on ib is +-0

5p has 5f startup

buster has 3f startup

it is buster'able

yeah but this is assuming you 5p and then let it fully recover before you 5p again, 5p->5p feels like a gatling to me

you shouldn't be HURRDURR AUTOPILOT at any stage in this matchup but I feel 5p is one of the stronger tools you have. USE IT

[MacArthur Blunts]

2P has indeed 4f startup and Slayer is at +3 on block with it. IB puts you at +1 which makes me unsure wether or not you are busterable if you do another 2P.

I feel that 5P as okizeme is not that good if you consider what you get from using it. The good things people have noted here is that you can react to a backdash with appropriate punish and you are fairly safe on block. If you do a well timed 5P as oki you can actually throw out another one and potemkin cant buster you inbetween.

What are you giving up for these advantages? A possibility to do whatever you want. A late 6K which can give you up to +9 frames on normal block, if he IBs youre still at +6. A late 2D which gives you +7 or +3 if IB. Granted these two options are harder to execute but they are both safe against potemkins backdash/buster and give you what 5P doesnt, a mixup. After these options you can then go into using 5P if you want, but with the added effect of a extra mixup before.

Also consider what the situation looks like for potemkin if he opts to just defend on his riseup. If you do a 5P he will block it 100% of the time. When playing better players this is probably the option they will go for at first in a serious match, before they see what you do on okizeme.

In short: what you get from 5P is a easy somewhat safe okizeme option, a stronger defensive option.

What you lose is a free mixup opportunity to force him into a guessing situation, you lose offensive strength. Imho this is a bad trade since its the offensive side thats difficult against potemkin.

Id use one or more dashes through him to mess up his execution on wakeup, even though you are punishable if you use it to late. This gives you more offensive possibilities which is what you lack against potemkin and what you want to use your okizeme for.

These are good points Yonasu. I agree that I'm giving up a mixup option but I'm also taking away his best wakeup options (his backdash and his buster) Competent potemkin (or any character) will know to just FD the 6K away so anything I follow up with will most likely whiff and i'll get bustered or slide head. I feel that in this matchup you need to establish a big STOP sign for his wake-up buster or backdash so you can force the high-low bite mixup.

Of course I do dash through oki to mess with his inputs/head and of course I still throw a super meaty 6K or 2D in this matchup.

Also, please don't get me wrong. I use 2P way more than 5P in this matchup seeing how it beats so much of his shit.

[Yonasu]

Got to test out the 5P as okizeme option in a good casualsession against what is probably europes best potemkin at showdown 5 this weekend. We talked about possibilities and options that potemkin has against it and we came to the conclusion that it is indeed pretty solid.

Potemkins options if you do 5Px2 is a 6P in between that whiffs or at best clashes if you are outside throwrange(this is important as otherwise reversal throw will beat the 5P anyhow), IB to slidehead which you then can hit him out of on reaction with 2K or block for good punish with BBU or whatever. If he backdashes you have a good time to punish him for it. I still need to research what the best punish is but it feels really managable anyhow.

Potemkin still has good options against most of the stuff you can do from here, but mixing up the amount of control you keep him in with 5P and when(if) you go for the mixup is really strong and the only situation against potemkin I feel that im really comfortable with.

Strongly recommend this okizeme against potemkin.

[Nuts]

is there any moves...that punish potemkins backdash? what to do if potemkin always do WHITE BLOCK and buster me? jump out?

[Wirya]

Pot's backdash has like 19 frames of invulnerability, I don't think Slayer can really punish it.... But you can always try to bait it.

[notsogos]

What I usually do is throw out a move with lots of active frames on it, pots bd has lots of invuln frames but has like a frame or two(?) of vulnerability at the end of it. So if you have a move that is active as his invulnerability is wearing off he can't do anything about it. I like to use 2d because it moves you forward and has more active frames that any other normal of slayers, you can also link a 2p after your 2d if it is meaty enough for 2p-5p-5p-whatever air combo. 2s also works with 9 active frames, 6h and mappa works too due to lots of forward movement, actually you can use anything to punish but you have to be precise about it, 2d is kinda braindead and leads to decent damage.

This situation usually occurs when I am using 5p as oki and he gets tired of blocking it so he backdashes inbetween them or as he is waking up. Its your job to realize your 5p whiffed and then just input 2d.

In other situations like when he backdashes a blatant jumpin or whatever, use your judgement. 5p and 5k are super good at stuffing at certain ranges.

In reality the safest and best (they go hand in hand in ggac) option is when you see his backdash, input your own backdash expecting a slidehead or hammerfall (youre going to be out of range for pot buster) and cancel your backdash with a 1 frame jump to avoid either option. fall straight down with j.h if hammerfall, airdash j.h if slidehead. K dandy works in place of the 1fj if youre feeling saucy and want to please your audience

[MacArthur Blunts]

While I agree with using active moves to cover his backdash, it isn't the safest option close up. Using 5P is always the best option when you're in an oki situation.

Hell, my main goal of oki vs him is to 5p him until his options are limited/makes a mistake.

Potemkin can just see a 6H, 2D, any active move a mile away and either straight up buster or IB buster, 5P...

Also ALWAYS be dashing through/dash back and meaty 5P. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS AND FOREVER. Once you get a knockdown, you should be able to oki him to death.

You can ALWAYS meaty a 5P and SB the reflector reversal on reaction. I do it 90% of the time.

it's so good.. 5P(meaty)react SB the reflector->CH DOT->LOL