Best throw technique for Dizzy?

[Gonzales]

Okays so we all know Dizzy has a good throw range, so its very important to be able to mix up when using your pressure strings with a throw(especially when your opponent is in the corner. I know of two different techquines when goin for a Dash grab. 1. Running dash grab- while your running and holding foward let your stick go to neutral as soon as you do that tap either back or foward HS to get your throw. 2. Dash Brake Throw- while running use FD to stop your dash as soon as you do that press either foward or back HS to throw your opponent. Both ways of doing you dash throw work fine, I personnaly use both techniques. Im wondering thougth if one of the two is better than the other and if should be using it exclusively?:8/: Any thougths?

[Kurumster]

dash breaking with faultless defense

[Double]

usually ill only use fd break if i have 1 or less summons out and am running up for a throw on someone who is planning to play defensively (for instance, a robo-ky with 20% or so tension sitting on a mat). if im planning a tick throw, ill usually just running and throw as soon as i hit neutral again.

[excelence]

i use 1 most of the time, but recentlly my oponent has stupid reflex for tick throw unless i give them stupid setup, any dry tick throw attempt i use dash->sb->throw... and pray that i don't get caught on VV

[fatewalker]

Dash break is more effective with charaters that have a longer "skid" in their dash like with Axl. i find that you don't really need to Dash Break with Dizzy. dash stop and throw isfast enough for her.

[Necrosis]

Dash throws work? 0_o I just FD braked ever since I found out it works.

[CrimsonDisaster]

Depends really. I FD brake most of the time but if the other guy has to use lows to try to mash out of throw setups, I'll skid. It's more or less preference in most situations though. FD brake -> step forward throw is actually pretty strong since you keep some forward momentum which gives the illusion of more throw range since you're stepping into range really quickly. Add that to Dizzy's already big throw range and you get some shenanigans. Still... just do whatever's more comfortable in most situations, it's not going to make a huge difference if you're not trying to skid over lows or whatever.

[zaeris]

you can also throw using tech traps, don't know if you would count it as a method ^^, scypher is a good one since its a lvl 1 attack. example one, use scypher and your opponent jumps blocking your attack, anticipate the number of hits and air throw once all scypher hits has reached. what else is fun these day ^^, EDIT: I suppose it's not the correct term.

[Gonzales]

yeah i've been trying that as well the thing is when timing those tech traps i sometimes jump to early and i cant air trow them because of those dam trow invinvible frames

[Merilyn]

What's fun is tick throwing as many times as you can until they break out. :D

[bizarro]

I never use FD break with Dizzy, as I find going neutral is just as fast and flows better for her animation, and hence FD would just be extra inputs that can cause a higher chance for screwups Although when I play baiken I always use FD break for my throws, maybe because of the obvious animation, or maybe also because of the habit I built up of breaking a rush with FD so I can counter a poke.

[bucklemyshoe]

for some reason i thought the focus of this thread would be on air throws? i love dizzy's air throw. one of the sickest moves in the entire game.

[excelence]

Air throw is one of her AA ... it's more focused on Tick Throw setup on this thread

[bucklemyshoe]

^^^Yea I noticed, I just... nevermind

[Gonzales]

actually it be cool if we discussed air trows as well im having trouble trying to implemeted in to my game sometimes people try to escape my oki pressure by using a 1-frame jump on wakeup so i've been trying to plan ahead and use the S fish to stop them from jumping to high and air trowing them while there still air blocking but i've had limited succes. Maeby my timing is a little off?, anybody else try that set up

[excelence]

i don't think the s_fish is a good one to follow with air throw, but if it's forced them to block, continue with f.s to waste their tension is a better follow up for it, even if they successfully block it, u still can go crazy and try to tick throw them (opt delayed ice spike/5hs->ice spike) i still use hs_fish to force them to jump and 669hs to get aerial throw

[bizarro]

For setups like throw > HS fish, some characters are able to jump so that the laser hits them when they are in the air. If the person you play tends to do this, pause a split second after your HS fish summon and then just run up and use f.S, it'll catch them good :D You can also end with a pretty sweet combo if you used double HS fish and if the distance is right: f.S (4 hits) > HS > icespike > FRC > IAD > bubble > 2nd laser hits > j.H > land > 421 > bubble loop

[bizarro]

I'd just like to apologize to anyone I confused by what I said about FD breaking not being faster. I'm actually wrong, it is faster than just going neutral.

The reason I've switched is after extensive testing doing tick throws off of 2K/2P. After poking at a close range, but not close enough to just stand and throw after the blocked 2K/2P, you must do a short dash or walk forward a few steps for the throw. I've been testing following a short dash with an FD break > 6H for a forward throw, but everytime I do it too fast I end up with a 6H instead of a throw, and therefore thought that there was a window after you start a dash where you cannot throw even if you FD break it. However, the real reason why the 6H kept coming out is because I do the FD break so fast after my dash startup that I have inputted an additional dash motion, and therefore my 6H will never be a throw because I would be dashing :V So as proof, I did the same thing except this time I used 4H as throw, and what did I get? A lightning quick short dash into throw!

So in reality, FD breaking actually is faster than going neutral. Just make sure to use 4H instead of 6H after short dashes.

[Saros]

I've been testing following a short dash with an FD break > 6H for a forward throw, but everytime I do it too fast I end up with a 6H instead of a throw, and therefore thought that there was a window after you start a dash where you cannot throw even if you FD break it. However, the real reason why the 6H kept coming out is because I do the FD break so fast after my dash startup that I have inputted an additional dash motion, and therefore my 6H will never be a throw because I would be dashing :V

So in reality, FD breaking actually is faster than going neutral. Just make sure to use 4H instead of 6H after short dashes.

66 (dash), 4+PK (FD brake), 6S+H (option select throw)

Problem solved.

[Kurumster]

I'd just like to apologize to anyone I confused by what I said about FD breaking not being faster. I'm actually wrong, it is faster than just going neutral.

I was seriously baffled when most of the players said that..... seriously..... Why wouldn't you use the best option available to you. With practice you can still do 6h for throw.

[bizarro]

66 (dash), 4+PK (FD brake), 6S+H (option select throw)

Problem solved.

What problem are we solving? Sure, you'll get c.S instead of 6H, but you still won't get the throw.

With practice you can still do 6h for throw.

No matter how much you practice, 6H will still be slower than 4H at that close of a range. You'll have to sacrifice quite a few frames to get that forward throw, which I'd rather not do. The faster the throw, the higher the chances of it succeeding.

[Kurumster]

I'm retarded. I forgot that with my throw I always do 4H lol....... I mixed it up with 6h. My fault.

[Merilyn]

I'm pretty sure what Saros meant by option select throw is so you don't suffer from 6H's horrible whiff time.

[Saros]

What problem are we solving? Sure, you'll get c.S instead of 6H, but you still won't get the throw.

No matter how much you practice, 6H will still be slower than 4H at that close of a range. You'll have to sacrifice quite a few frames to get that forward throw, which I'd rather not do. The faster the throw, the higher the chances of it succeeding.

First of all, I must have misunderstood your case. I was thinking in terms of not getting a 6H out rather than not getting the throw altogether.

Secondly, while there are times when FD Brake + 4H throw is desirable (such as when your back is to the corner, or when you need to cover far range), there are also many cases where FD Brake + OS throw with Dizzy's 5S© is beneficial.

Thirdly, the best throw technique for Dizzy, is when it is a good time to throw. Any throw, FD brake or not, will work if your opponent is in the correct state of mind for you to throw (and of course, you being in throw range).

How you get into range is entirely up to you. Believe me when I say whether you are a few frames faster or not, matters little. I'm sure you've seen many many many Jap tournement vids where players are simply thrown and you wonder, why is he just sitting there getting thrown. It's all down to the state (I'm tempted to use the word spirit) of the opponent.

You can actually throw in so many situations, but the underlying factor is whether your opponent lets you do it or not (yes, the opponent lets you). Also now in AC, there are many previously guaranteed throws that are no longer feasible due to throw brakes. Example is when an opponent does a jump in whiff and you attempt a throw. Once they are used to it, they will simply throw break. This is one aspect which I dislike somewhat, as they should not be able to turn a disadvantageous situation (due to their own mistake) into a neutral sit.

While I dislike theory fighting, I feel that sometimes it's better to understand the reasons why most people do things, and hopefully we can incorporate into our own game. So I'd like to touch on the pros and cons of failed 4H or 6H OS throws. Note that in Dizzy's case, you always want to use 5S© as your OS throw option. Also note that this is irrelevant to FD braking or sliding, those are separate factors which are determined by range you need to cover.

Pros of Failed 6H+5S© OS Throw

• JC option
• +1 on block
• x2 Stun
• catch them attempting to jump out
• easier to position yourself within throw range
• 11 frame total recovery to bait burst
• throws towards the front

Cons of 6H+5S© OS Throw attempts

• it is slower than 4H by a noticeable amount
• you can get poked out of it if your opponent is expecting it
• throws towards the front

Most of these are a no brainer, just frame data.

Why easier to position? If you are doing FD brake -> throw, and misjudge the range you will most slightly forward when you attempt 6H throws, but you will move backward if you use 4H.

You might be thinking, hay, why don't I just get closer before FD braking? You can, but you'd lose the 4 dot range advantage over most opponents. By FD braking a tiny bit earlier, and walking the remaining dots to get into throw range, you not only are able to be more precise in your positioning to get into throw range, you can also can bait the opponent in trying to

• 1F jump out (if he fails, you get a free ground to air or spike KD)
• attempt a fast poke to stop you getting in (throws are 0 startup, mostly you will win)
• throw you before you throw him/her (you have 4 dot advantage over many of the cast)
• Gold burst (11 frame recovery from 5S© allows you to IB bursts naturally)

Since you have all the properties of 5S©, as well as your extra throw range on most of the cast, this is usually all to your advantage. Of course this all depends on your opponent's state of mind and character. This is by no means guaranteed.

Why is throwing in front of you both a pro and a con? It's all down to positioning. Whether you want to throw towards corner or towards midscreen. Some people say Dizzy has better options midscreen via multiple crossups of H~H fish, some prefer the high-low games off H~P fish in the corner, up to you.

Continued next post.

[Saros]

Now let's look at the Pros and Cons of using 4H after FD braking

Pros of FD Brake + 4H throw attempts

• faster than 6H by a significant amoount
• throws behind you
• can catch opponent attempting to backdash with H, if throw fails

Cons of failed FD Brake + 4H throw attempts

• 13F startup, 15F recovery, -4 on block
• Limited safe followups
• throws behind you (if succeed, duh)

There is a genuine advantage to the speed and range at which you can attempt throws when using FD brake + 4H. This is good when you wish to guarantee a killing blow while avoiding burst. It is also good if your back is to the corner and you wish to toss the opponent there.

It is also possible to catch some characters during their backdash recovery frames, if they attempt it. This might not happen often, but stranger things have happened. However, I do not think you can get a KD if you followup with a spike as your H is going to be hitting them while they are in the air. Not too sure about this though.

Now, consider the cons. The frame data for H is enough for the opponent to jump out or gold burst. Your followups are limited to (1) 2H->special (2) do nothing (3) RC for safety (4) 2H FRC. The opponent is going to be pretty close, closer if they IBed the 2H. Ideally, 2H FRC is the safest, if you really need it at any cost.

Taking into account all these, my personal philosophy is to use 6H OS whenever I can, and 4H very sparingly, and only when I really feel that a fast throw, or corner throw, is well worth any risk involved.

In this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8owjI3iA5Y

Kazuki (DI) vs Ten (IN), look at the part around 01:08.

You can see the classic case of where a corner throw is desirable to turn around the situation, and Kazuki attempts it with FD brake + 4H, but Ten avoids it totally. If Kazuki had used 5S©, it would have most likely gotten him a counter hit. However, it is by no means a bad decision. In fact, it is probably what I would have done.

If you can play the vid frame by frame, you can also see how Kazuki actually FD braked a little too late and could have attempted the throw from a further range (and hence possibly thrown Ten indeed during his IN's jump startup frames).