[CSE] Mu vs Rachel

[Aginor]

Discuss the Rachel match up here.

What to look out for:

What to do:

[Zeromus_X]

Any tricks for this matchup? In the corner it might as well be game over since her oki pretty much swallows all of Mu's defensive options while Rachel can actually disrespect most of Mu's pretty easily with tech + wind. I'm not sure where to burst in this matchup since bursting too early is a waste but Gold Bursts are just about useless. Playing lame the whole match sounds ideal, but once Rachel gets pumpkin out she gains a huge neutral advantage and she can play around steins with her lobelias pretty easily.

[C0R]

About wind tech: It removes many of µ's unique stratagems on knockdown, but she's still vulnerable to things that are universally good in the BB engine.

-Stand up, she won't go over you and you can still successfully meaty/mix her up.

-End with 6c/j.2c > 5[D] knockdown, forcing emergency tech or they can chance falling into a new combo.

Also, for better or for worse, every goddamn Rachel player mashes throw after wind-tech. Blow that shit up with meaty 5b.

[Zeromus_X]

Old news? Apparently our DP will always kill George in one hit. This makes DP > RC a really safe way to get out of George oki, forcing the Rachel to use less optimal pumpkin/lobelia oki more when we have 50 meter.

Ways to kill George in one hit at neutral:

-SoD kills George in one hit. Can be really safe if spaced correctly; just be aware of pumpkin

-6C can kill George in one hit and you can still cancel into steins or specials.

-TK Habaya will also kill George.

-214D from low to the ground steins like airdash j2Ds also work.

Now that I know how to shut down wind tech and zone her better, I realize this match is more in Mu's favor.

[C0R]

6-4, maybe 5.5 in Mu's favor. Really only because of the damage/reward difference though.

[xntrikcat]

I respectfully disagree. I believe the matchup is dead even at 5:5.

Most Rachel players don’t know how to shut down Mu’s zoning, but Rachel can react to practically everything Mu does, whereas Mu has to make really good guesses (as opposed to reaction) to stop Rachel from setting up her stuff. It really comes down to how well Rachel manages her wind stocks and how well she directs the lobelias.

Mu is mostly “time-based zoning”, with 236a being the only “direct zoning” available. But Rachel can control a lot of space directly with her lobelias, which set up George XIII and Pumpkin. And I believe these are much better tools than Mu’s 236d or 214d for setting up offense.

Even if Rachel chooses not to bother with setting things up, she can just RTSD with her winded approach. Consider that Mu has a much harder time getting in on Rachel. Anywhere outside of 5c range, Rachel can preemptively zone (lobelia) or simply fly away. Rachel can force very conservative stein placements/cancels just by having that full screen winded IAD.

That’s not to say this is a bad matchup. If a Rachel makes mistakes or gets too predictable, Mu can punish her pretty well. A well timed 6c FC turns around rounds. You can sometimes 6d 214d to catch a predictable Rachel spamming random lobelias. And, as we all agree, Mu’s return on these confirmed hits is extremely strong.

I just don’t agree with the oversimplified notion that Mu’s zoning “beats” Rachel’s. Rachel players have to be clever and properly wind lobelias, but that doesn’t make Mu’s zoning straight up superior to Rachel's in this matchup.

With Mu’s huge damage, Mu only has to get in once or twice to win, which she can manage despite not having access to her strongest setups vs. Rachel. But at neutral, it’s an uphill battle vs. Rachel who knows what she’s doing.

Source: getting bodied by TD repeatedly for many many moons.

[pochp]

Mu's zoning beats rachel's at fullscreen. I think that the pumkin is the central element of this matchup. I try to hit jump and j.a if rachel summons to close to me (and by that I mean that I'll either stay at a range where I can do this, or go fullscreen), because j.c is never fast enough. If not I try to stay far and use steins and 236a. If the pumkin goes through a 236a it stops being a projectile until rachel uses more wind, and similar for the lobelias, so this move acts like a wall. Once I get a 2+ stein 236d out, I keep changing patterns, trying to guess where they'll go and placing my steins there, until I get a safe approach and go in on rachel's DP-less defense.

I'll agree that you can't just say that one has better tools than the other. Both characters have annoying mixup on the other, Rachel with her gapless 50/50s, but also having no DP. Rachel's j.c is really good and fast, and a good use of lobelias will shut down a lot of Mu's gameplan, but the opposite is also true. I try to deal with george by triggering him and then going out of his range to avoid blockstun, of course looking out for lobelias or pumpkin that could keep me there. Don't forget you can cancel any stein into a DP to deal with air wind approach, but a preemptive j.236a is generally safer.

I need to fight TD more, he doesn't use lobelias the same way as kirbster, so the few times we fought I didn't know how to deal with them. So, until I figure out what to do about it I'll agree with you about it being even or close.

ps: you probably already know everything I just posted, xntricat, I'm just giving tips and counters to the stuff you listed for the thread itself. But yeah this matchup is not simple at all, and oversimplifying it isn't going to help figuring it out.

[xntrikcat]

I’m sorry I can’t give any direct tips because honestly, this matchup can play out in very unexpected ways. So instead of having a list of direct counters, I try to keep keep some rules of thumb. They've been somewhat helpful, many of them hard learned from getting bodied repeatedly lol.

1. Never 236a full screen when on top of a pole (lol) or when Rachel has 50 meter.

2. Don’t be afraid to s.j high up and drop a stein. All you need is one laser hit to stop Rachel’s flow of bukkake monsters.

3. Always watch out for Tempest Dahlia super. Rachel w/ 50 meter = Tager w/ spark volt.

4. Mix it up. One round, spend time zoning. Next round, RTSD.

5. Expect eager Rachels to wind IAD, and 6a her out.

6. Straight up run through George and grab Rachel to cancel summon.

7. Watch how comfortable Rachel gets w/ lobelias. Make her afraid of 6c

8. Be careful even after green bursting, Rachel might attempt to get right back in w/ winded IAD. Anticipate and 6a.

9. Good time to burst is when she’s out of wind stocks.

10. After Rach breaks ground throw, she can 66b to beat your 236a or 5c attempt. Better to return to neutral.

11. Sometimes just resign yourself to blocking (I don’t do this very well)

Pretty obvious things, but it's sometimes hard not to screw up.

[susano]

....I feel like a n00b for asking this but what's RTSD?

I agree with you xntrikcat. I sorta understand this matchup but against Rachels who know what they're doing-this match is hair raising.

[pochp]

RTSD : Rush that shit down. In this context it would mean to start the round by either dashing forward or jumping forward, playing really aggressively, and not giving rachel any space to summon her pokemon.

[susano]

RTSD : Rush that shit down. In this context it would mean to start the round by either dashing forward or jumping forward, playing really aggressively, and not giving rachel any space to summon her pokemon.

I've heard people say I need to be more aggressive with Mu, that I'm too laid back. Time to toughen up like GI. Jane.