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Honnou

I-no vs Axl

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:AX: AXL MATCHUP INFORMATION

Poking Game

Strategy

Specific Punishes

Setups/baits

Knowledge

I-no can STBT (41236S/HS) through Axl's 2p.

Against, Axl's 5p, I-no can TK a 236 HS as low as possible and beat it, but whether it is worth it or not depends on distance because you may not reach him in time if too slow. Chemical love will win if you predict the 5p in advance.

When doing 6p, 5hs, TK HCL 6FRC6, you may have to TK the HCL a little higher on usual on Axl. If done with any delay, a low TK HCL will black beat. I have no explanation for this but it is just something I've come across.

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Axl's entire plan is to keep you away because not only can he poke you to death and abuse his AAs but he knows at close range your speed and rushdown will kill him quick. So what the match comes down to is you using 6644 to bait an ariel attack and then spitting a note. If it hits chase the tech for an air throw and the match is over. Rushdown til hes dead but be careful for catch moves on wake up.

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I haven't tried this out since I haven't played an Axl but in theory, a meaty falling VCL should stuff any of his wake-up moves he has (projectile counter only activates 2F onwards, dps have no lower body invince or no upper body invince) except the super, which has a 14+1F startup and you should recover in time to block and punish. Also, at mid range you can beat his 5P with far slash for CH.

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You'd to have the FRC the falling VLC because it still has a minor landing recovery that would get you hit by the super.

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Axl's entire plan is to keep you away because not only can he poke you to death and abuse his AAs but he knows at close range your speed and rushdown will kill him quick.

Well, while it's true that Axl does not like being rushed down, I-No isn't all that scary, since all you have to do is block high more and FD her out when you can. I disagree that one knockdown will decide the match (this is more true of a matchup like Eddie or Dizzy)

So what the match comes down to is you using 6644 to bait an ariel attack and then spitting a note. If it hits chase the tech for an air throw and the match is over.

This is an unreliable strategy, as oftentimes the note won't hit in the air, not to mention that Axl does have one damn good anti-tech-grab option in FB bomber. Granted, notes are probably your best way of getting in if you guess right and force the Axl to block or jump, but you still have to be careful.

Rushdown til hes dead but be careful for catch moves on wake up.

An Axl that throws tenhou on wakeup is stupid, and one that throws housou on wakeup is either stupid, desperate, or is doing it on reaction to something you've already committed to (meaning there's not a whole lot you can do about it.) I'd worry more about getting FD'd back into Axl's optimal range, if I were you.

I haven't tried this out since I haven't played an Axl but in theory, a meaty falling VCL should stuff any of his wake-up moves he has (projectile counter only activates 2F onwards, dps have no lower body invince or no upper body invince) except the super, which has a 14+1F startup and you should recover in time to block and punish.

Well yeah, but you can't assume that Axl, a character with no good reversals whatsoever, Is always going to try to do something waking up. I agree with Honnou that FRCing is necessary for this plan, but less because of the super and more because the Axl will probably have no trouble IBing your meaty.

Also, at mid range you can beat his 5P with far slash for CH.

5P is anti-air. If you want to beat Axl on the ground, the pokes you're looking out for are 2H, f.S, and 3P.

You'd to have the FRC the falling VLC because it still has a minor landing recovery that would get you hit by the super.

Not to mention by an IB-->Punish, as already mentioned.

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Stinky said that f.s bit not me. To be fair no fighting game stratedgy works 100%. It comes down to what works best most of the time for an individual. I didnt say 1 KD would decide the round i said 1 airthrow would and i stand by that. If the throw itself doesnt corner axl it can be combo'd from to put him there. Once hes there hes good as dead.

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Also Im sure most I-No players will agree FD in general gives I-No an advantage. Not only does it have a huge safety pushback it also drasticly increases momentum that can turn a blocked combo into high damage. (via a very fast cl dash). Aka a 2nd wind.

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Stinky said that f.s bit not me. To be fair no fighting game stratedgy works 100%. It comes down to what works best most of the time for an individual. I didnt say 1 KD would decide the round i said 1 airthrow would and i stand by that. If the throw itself doesnt corner axl it can be combo'd from to put him there. Once hes there hes good as dead.

Again, I disagree. While anyone can rush down better in the corner, Axl has a lot of options against I-No's rushdown, way moreso than against characters against whom one knockdown into corner would definitely decide the match (Eddie, Dizzy, Jam, Venom). When it comes down to it, I-No just isn't that scary, and it doesn't mean you shouldn't rush down, it just means it'll be a hell of a lot more work than you make it out to be.

Also Im sure most I-No players will agree FD in general gives I-No an advantage. Not only does it have a huge safety pushback it also drasticly increases momentum that can turn a blocked combo into high damage. (via a very fast cl dash). Aka a 2nd wind.

Do you mean I-No FDing or Axl FDing? Because I-No getting FD'd out means she loses her low option (Stroke the big tree is TERRIBLE in this matchup, due to at least two moves that will beat it on reaction, these being 3P and 6H, which are not only laughably easy to get out in time, but will also CH for HUGE damage and probably knockdown if you're near the corner or Axl has ample meter), which takes the heat off of Axl for just long enough, given that it will also put Axl in a more comfortable range for him. Meanwhile, remember that HCL can be ducked by 2K, meaning that the Axl does not have to block it at all.

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Also Im sure most I-No players will agree FD in general gives I-No an advantage. Not only does it have a huge safety pushback it also drasticly increases momentum that can turn a blocked combo into high damage. (via a very fast cl dash). Aka a 2nd wind.

Really? The FD pusback is dependant on what attacks you use. So if you're all pressure,pressure,pressure you'll be outta range in no time leaving you with A)HCL B)Note. Note being the best option without meter. Unless you want to dash in again*possibly suicide*.

The thing is though if Axl FDs your normals you're gonna be borderline close range/mid range(most likely semi-close range) if you're fast and smart enough to know to stop attacking. Axl might not opt for his normals with the most range but I-no herself lacks range. So while I-no will be in a better position in terms of distance she's still at somewhat of a disadvantage.

STBT will be a free half life combo for Axl, HCL could work but Axl's 2K will evade it even if it's TKed. Pretty much not the best option without FRC. Note might work.

I-no's normals of choice in that situation: 5K/2K/dashing j.K

All lead to either

A)a KD and let's her get in

B)Damaging combo that ends in KD

C)If blocked or FD the range isn't such a big issue that she's screwed.

D)May(heavy on the may)allow her to move to at least mixup with a throw.

In terms of mixups I-no has the advantage. In terms of pokes I'd say it's about even. I-no has the mixup and speed on her side but Axl obviously has the range. Either can mess each other up. I-no lands a hit gets a combo/KD and gets in. Or Axl lands a hit gets a combo/KD and I-no gets pushed out. Axl's normals are slower than I-no's but her can still AA her and somewhat control space. Becuase Axl's normals aren't what you would call fast it's a bit harder for him to keep I-no out.

Pressure:

I-no may have the advantage over Axl here. Axl's pressure is limited to his resengeki FRC/ resengeki followups and ranged pokes. I-no with her Note and HCL FRC and make herself a way in.

Under pressure:

Neither excels in this department. However Axl cannot force a person into lockdown like I-no can. But hers like his is improved with meter to FRC. FD kills Axl's pressure. HCL and Note FRC is more powerful than Axl's resengeki followups/FRC. Do note that if Axl does resengeki into his spinning chain followup I-no will obviously be pushed out.

Air-to-air:

Most likely Axl will have no reason to ever leave the ground unless he's comboing you...

Anti-air:

I-no has her VCL and 6P...

Axl has 6K/2S/6P but since Axl really has no reason to be in the air....:8/:

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I cant wait to play our money match. :D Hopefully in the next few months i can make the trip. And to clarify i meant Axl FDing.

Yeah! Actually, I'm probably going to go to West Toast 12, so if you're going to that, we could meet up in California to play.

Really? The FD pusback is dependant on what attacks you use. So if you're all pressure,pressure,pressure you'll be outta range in no time leaving you with A)HCL B)Note. Note being the best option without meter. Unless you want to dash in again*possibly suicide*.
At that range, a note gets stuffed on reaction, easy. HCL FRC is your best option, or dash+FD.

The thing is though if Axl FDs your normals you're gonna be borderline close range/mid range(most likely semi-close range) if you're fast and smart enough to know to stop attacking. Axl might not opt for his normals with the most range but I-no herself lacks range. So while I-no will be in a better position in terms of distance she's still at somewhat of a disadvantage.

STBT will be a free half life combo for Axl, HCL could work but Axl's 2K will evade it even if it's TKed. Pretty much not the best option without FRC. Note might work.

All true, but remember to get the FUCK out of 5P/6K range when setting a note. Otherwise you just get stuffed.

I-no's normals of choice in that situation: 5K/2K/dashing j.K

All lead to either

A)a KD and let's her get in

B)Damaging combo that ends in KD

C)If blocked or FD the range isn't such a big issue that she's screwed.

D)May(heavy on the may)allow her to move to at least mixup with a throw.

Well, you've gotta be cautious, because again, Axl's all about the anti-air (The main reason this match is like... 4-6 in Axl's favor at best for I-No, in my opinion.), so dashing K isn't so great unless you know he's at frame disadvantage. Also watch out for 3P, which is good at fucking with low pokes, and 2K, which I THINK will beat 5K, both of which Axls throw out like mad.

In terms of mixups I-no has the advantage.
I disagree. Most of I-No's mixup is pre-empted by her complete inability to really get in. Anything aerial is REALLY risky due to Axl's godly AA, and to reiterate, STBT is just terrible, terrible, and more terrible.
In terms of pokes I'd say it's about even.
At close range yes, but anything from a little closer than match start position outwards starts to look bad for I-No.
I-no has the mixup and speed on her side but Axl obviously has the range.
Range isn't really as big a factor as AA, as I-No approaches from the air almost all the time (She doesn't have much choice)
Either can mess each other up. I-no lands a hit gets a combo/KD and gets in. Or Axl lands a hit gets a combo/KD and I-no gets pushed out. Axl's normals are slower than I-no's but her can still AA her and somewhat control space. Becuase Axl's normals aren't what you would call fast it's a bit harder for him to keep I-no out.
Again, I disagree. I-No's damage output is pretty weak in comparison, and it's actually VERY easy for Axl to keep her out, for the aforementioned reasons. Meanwhile, Axl wants to get in as much as I-No, as there's some pretty solid rushdown stuff you can do once you have the advantage, and I-No's only real reversal against meaties is a risky super.

Pressure:

I-no may have the advantage over Axl here. Axl's pressure is limited to his resengeki FRC/ resengeki followups and ranged pokes. I-no with her Note and HCL FRC and make herself a way in.

Rensen FRC+Any blockstring you want+Raei stuff+Surprisingly effective Rashousen (Works well on I-No, not so much characters like Pot/Anji/HOS)+tickthrows+a shit ton of level five moves. People who say Axl can't keep pressure haven't played a good one, in my opinion. I agree that I-no is good for this as well.

Under pressure:

Neither excels in this department. However Axl cannot force a person into lockdown like I-no can. But hers like his is improved with meter to FRC. FD kills Axl's pressure. HCL and Note FRC is more powerful than Axl's resengeki followups/FRC. Do note that if Axl does resengeki into his spinning chain followup I-no will obviously be pushed out.

Again, I'm disinclined to agree with your assessment, not because you misassess either character's ability to deal with pressure, but your assessment of Axl's offense belies inexperience with the matchup.

Air-to-air:

Most likely Axl will have no reason to ever leave the ground unless he's comboing you...

Or to dodge notes. Actually, that's one of the best ways 9TNine gets in on me when we play. Really, Axl isn't that dangerous air-to-air compared to I-No, so this is an ideal situation. You should watch out for j.S if you're well below him, and remember that Kokuu has to be faultlessed and his j.K is about as disjointed as Eddie's. Other than that, air-to-air is I-No's game and she should win it.

Anti-air:

I-no has her VCL and 6P...

Axl has 6K/2S/6P but since Axl really has no reason to be in the air....:8/:

Eh, it's one way to approach, but typically that'll only happen when Axl is at an advantage in the first place, so it's best to consider that just part of being rushed down.

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haha I-no vs Axl.....this is one of the easiest matches to fight. not her best but easiest. Big difference... but one wrong move and youll wonder why she just lost 80%. tk notes are a no no except in a wakeup situation for axl and stbt without a note on axl or some good lv 4 blockstun will get her killed. How Ino easily wins this is by patience. Axl will poke cause that is what axl does, either trying to bait a note or stuff her jump attempts. backdashing out of 5p range with HS note will annull this, also duck or use 2k to go under his 5p and hcl for the knockdown that will end the match literally. once she gets in no axl wakeups will beat her clean. besides on a kd, he should be blocking a lv 3 note anyway. patience patience patience...and for the love of god dont try to aa his bomber! o_O

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I disagree. Most of I-No's mixup is pre-empted by her complete inability to really get in. Anything aerial is REALLY risky due to Axl's godly AA, and to reiterate, STBT is just terrible, terrible, and more terrible. At close range yes, but anything from a little closer than match start position outwards starts to look bad for I-No. Range isn't really as big a factor as AA, as I-No approaches from the air almost all the time (She doesn't have much choice) Again, I disagree. I-No's damage output is pretty weak in comparison, and it's actually VERY easy for Axl to keep her out, for the aforementioned reasons. Meanwhile, Axl wants to get in as much as I-No, as there's some pretty solid rushdown stuff you can do once you have the advantage, and I-No's only real reversal against meaties is a risky super.

I agree it's very easy for Axl to keep I-no put but no player will always manage to keep someone out everytime. Even Slayer gets in on Testament at times. But like Axl vs I-no Testy can get him back out again.

Rensen FRC+Any blockstring you want+Raei stuff+Surprisingly effective Rashousen (Works well on I-No, not so much characters like Pot/Anji/HOS)+tickthrows+a shit ton of level five moves. People who say Axl can't keep pressure haven't played a good one, in my opinion. I agree that I-no is good for this as well.

I'm not saying Axl can't keep pressure. If an I-no player is to afraid to make some type of advancement they will be easily zoned out. You'd be surprised how many Sol/Order-Sol players can VV/SV an aerial attack but opt to block and get pushed out instead of making an advancement. Really at one point or another I-no will get in. It's bound to happen. No one character can keep anyone out all the time.

Again, I'm disinclined to agree with your assessment, not because you misassess either character's ability to deal with pressure, but your assessment of Axl's offense belies inexperience with the matchup.

True that I haven't fought a bunch of good Axl's. Seems a rare few picked him up around where I am. Sucks really.

What I'm trying to say is that no way every single time the Axl or I-no player will make the best move. If I-no does A and Axl can beat it with B doesn't mean everytime Axl will do it. I've seen Axl rape I-no and I-no rape Axl. I've seen I-no get in by doing a TK Dive WHICH NO ONE WOULD EVER SAY TRY THAT.

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What I'm trying to say is that no way every single time the Axl or I-no player will make the best move. If I-no does A and Axl can beat it with B doesn't mean everytime Axl will do it. I've seen Axl rape I-no and I-no rape Axl. I've seen I-no get in by doing a TK Dive WHICH NO ONE WOULD EVER SAY TRY THAT.

Well yeah, but then why discuss matchups in the first place? :psyduck:

Of course human error is a factor, but 2K is a pretty kneejerk thing to do for an Axl player, and 3P/6H beating STBT are easy to do on reaction. Meanwhile, the matchup is pretty bad for I-No. I'd call it 6.5-3.5.

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couple axl combos i put together. http://www.mediafire.com/?zcxovggsjij the number in the title is the damage they do.

This match is clearly in Axl's favor but as an I-No player that really doesn't mean much. Most matches aren't in I-No's favor. It's one of the many things I like about our On-II-nO, the skill of the player is the biggest determining factor.

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this matchup is terrible and ive raped every axl ive ever played in tourney. including those who i was impressed by. The matchup is bad, but player strength and knowledge of said matchup and char has wayyy more to do with winning than anything.

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this matchup is terrible and ive raped every axl ive ever played in tourney. including those who i was impressed by.

The matchup is bad, but player strength and knowledge of said matchup and char has wayyy more to do with winning than anything.

Well yeah. A better player is more likely to decide a match than a bad matchup... but again, what's the point of discussing matchups if the discussion always turns to "Matchups don't matter as much as player skill?"

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this matchup is terrible and ive raped every axl ive ever played in tourney. including those who i was impressed by.

The matchup is bad, but player strength and knowledge of said matchup and char has wayyy more to do with winning than anything.

The same could be said of all religions. :psyduck:

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There seems to be lots of biased responses in this thread. Anyways... getting back to the topic. Standard corner BnB Hover dash > j.s > land > 5k > 6p > 5h > HCL FRC AD > ad.h > land > 5s© > jc > j.s > j.hs > *s dive > land > 5p > 5s© > SJC > j.s > j.hs > K dive - Works completely fine on Axel and nets a KD. Lows into BnB 2s > 5h > IAD > ad.k > ad.s - Whiffs most of the time. 2s > 5h > HCL FRC AD > ad.s > ad.hs - The ad.hs black beats. 2s > 5h > HCL FRC AD > ad.k > ad.s > VCL fast fall - Works and allows you to do whatever you want after mid screen/corner. A little on the hard side though but if your good with techy stuff then use it. Corner dust combo IAD > *VCL fast fall > 5s > VCL > 5s > Any KD or tech grab setup combo of your choice. Tech throw into corner combo I'll confirm later. *= slight delay If you don't use STBT in this match up you will lose because Axel then will only have to worry about AA'ing your approach.. just don't be predictable with it because he has many options that beat it clean. Stay full screen or all up in his face. Use notes from the very back of the screen. Axel's gattling into 6h is not safe but safest when done from his 5h so if he is doing any other gattle into 6h you should be able to do something about it. Use more HCLs to anti poke him and score a free KD. When he does his Rashousen (the blue orb that is a long ranged grab) jump and dive at him ASAP. Axel's super is so crap you can jump out between the hits into an AD combo of your choice! so baited super > jump > AD > AD.s > AD.hs > land > something that hurts and will make him never want to do it again. Bentengari(S) starts up in 5 frames so you will want to sometimes just hoverdash and JC to bait this. I'll have to check how hard it is to time a meaty j.k to land and block this in time, if you even can. You can't reversal super perfectly timed Axel's meaties.

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I dunno a ton about I-No combos, so I can't comment on that part. Your combos are probably good.

If you don't use STBT in this match up you will lose because Axel then will only have to worry about AA'ing your approach.. just don't be predictable with it because he has many options that beat it clean.

Um, not only beat it clean, beat it ON REACTION. I can see it being good to punish a few things, but in a neutral situation, STBT simply gets beat out.

Stay full screen or all up in his face. Use notes from the very back of the screen.

Agreed.

Axel's gattling into 6h is not safe but safest when done from his 5h so if he is doing any other gattle into 6h you should be able to do something about it.

VERY true, however, remember to stand up early when you see it if you're going to block, because I'm PRETTY sure I-No's one of the characters where if she's crouching for too much of the move, she gets meatied by it for free, making it pretty much 100% safe, and comboable on hit.

Use more HCLs to anti poke him and score a free KD.

Eh, there are several reasons this isn't as viable as it sounds, I think, not the least of which being that HCL has more startup than 5P and 2S, and hardly less than 6K, meaning that if you're trying to do it on reaction, you'll get stuffed. Meanwhile, 2K can go under an attempt at doing it predictively, leaving you either in recovery or forced to FRC just to be safe.

When he does his Rashousen (the blue orb that is a long ranged grab) jump and dive at him ASAP.

That's actually an interesting solution I hadn't thought of. I'd like to play an I-No that does that.

Axel's super is so crap you can jump out between the hits into an AD combo of your choice! so baited super > jump > AD > AD.s > AD.hs > land > something that hurts and will make him never want to do it again.

Eh. I can't think of many reasons for Axl to even do a super in the first place.

Bentengari(S) starts up in 5 frames so you will want to sometimes just hoverdash and JC to bait this. I'll have to check how hard it is to time a meaty j.k to land and block this in time, if you even can.

Shouldn't be too hard, as long as you can meaty it so that it would hit normally on frames 1-4, and lands on or before frame 5, since air normals have no landing recovery.

You can't reversal super perfectly timed Axel's meaties.

Well, probably only meaty 6H or 5H.

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Standard corner BnB

Hover dash > j.s > land > 5k > 6p > 5h > HCL FRC AD > ad.h > land > 5s© > jc > j.s > j.hs > *s dive > land > 5p > 5s© > SJC > j.s > j.hs > K dive - Works completely fine on Axel and nets a KD.

My PS2 is in another building at the moment so I can't test it out but I'm fairly sure if you simply remove the first jS or remove the 5K and use jH VCL instead of jH land, this combo will have a better damage output.

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My PS2 is in another building at the moment so I can't test it out but I'm fairly sure if you simply remove the first jS or remove the 5K and use jH VCL instead of jH land, this combo will have a better damage output.

My combos are fine and they are what you would land in matches 50% of the time from your 'okizeme'. Do you really land j.hs into BnB's? Match vids? J.hs > VCL > what? I just can't see myself re-dashing to J.hs height and then actually landing it.... takes too long.

I wouldn't fret over measly damage points. I'd try and remove as many frc's and supers from combos as possible so you can use it for mix-ups/dead angles/neutral supers to land further combos.

Without using STBT as an I-no player moving forward is limited to aerial entries. While each and every STBT is a risk, so is hover dashing forward to Axel or SJ IAD'ing to Axel. The deal is if you take this option away COMPLETELY then Axel doesn't have to worry about this anymore. An Axel player can then start pre-emptively using 5p to stop I-no's aerial entry and as a bonus HCL's. See what I mean?

If anyone else here plays against an Axel (the one in my crew changed to Eddie :gonk:) then please try some hover dashes and falling into STBT to see how an Axel player would react. If he is preempting 5p then don't even bother dashing, just crouch and hover dash in a little into a STBT. mix it up with actually going straight for him. I'm just curious :kitty: You'll know if he's focused or not.

I meant to say pre-emptive anti poke in regards to the HCL matter, my bad!

You could probably just hover dash into a combo instead of jump and diving at Axel when you see his Rashousen, it would hurt lots more. The same thing sort of applies to Sensageki from longer ranges. You could possibly even STBT Rashousen.

And personally I'm not that good, or I'm just a very modest I-no player cause I make mistakes all the time.

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Im not sure what you mean by redashing? But what I meant was... Hover dash > j.s > land > 6p > 5h > HCL FRC AD > ad.h > VCL> land > 5s© > jc > j.s > j.hs > *s dive > land > 5p > 5s© > SJC > j.s > j.hs > K dive or 5k > 6p > 5h > HCL FRC AD > ad.h > VCL > land > 5s© > jc > j.s > j.hs > *s dive > land > 5p > 5s© > SJC > j.s > j.hs > K dive

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