[CSE] Carl vs. Tager

[sinder]

Ok, better late than never. With CP around the corner, some of this stuff will be helpful so it can be a copy/paste job for the future

Since this match is much different than what it used to be (a free win), I think there needs to be a lot of specifics addressed. The beginning of the match is important, BUT since Tager can win this match with the press of a button during mid match you need to be careful. Here is a description of this dreaded match up... well it's still fun, but he is no longer super free to us

Beginning of the match

Depending on the player, Tager will usually do the following, and I'll post why (if you're a Tager player and you have different reasons for doing a move please post it here)

5C

Can stuff Carl and Ada. Forces you to block or do an air back dash. If you use fuoco you can stuff it, but why you would use fuoco like that is beyond me. Your best bet would be to back dash and get away from him. 5C alone can't reach Ada from her starting position, but IF you use fuoco Tager can sledge through it and take health away.

5D

5D is the move where Tager throws his fist out and it can magnetize you. If you can react quickly enough you can use j.c and 4D to counter it. 4D has a crazy hit box and Ada doesn't get hit by 5D (however every other move you do will cause her to get hit). Back dashing is another option you can use. At the beginning of the match it will hit Carl, and will magnetize him so be smart and hide behind your sister but don't activate her!

2D

Tager does some sort of tackle which could also magnetize you. This move is easily punishable with 4D or all-can

6A

This move is where Tager just stands there with his arm in the air. It is useless in the beginning of a match when you aren't magnetized but some Tagers do this for some reason... it is vulnerable to lows so 2B or a slide stuff it, but the slide deals more damage on counter hit, plus you should fight dumb with dumber (doing a neutral 3C aka slide is suicide)

j. C

Dumb. Brio and a well timed 2A can counter this. 2C will clash so don't even bother (but it is sad if they do get hit, which means they weren't thinking strategically. That is because j.C's animation would have ended before 2C, so essentially they just mashed :x)

236 A-->236 A or 236 B--> 236 A Sledge Hammer

The netplay savior of all tagers in this MU. Even though this move is punishable on block (you can use 5B to punish the second hit of sledge) lag time can make it safe and they can 360 you (yes). Also, the second hit of sledge hammer a ridiculous hitbox and you will trade even though you are not in the way. Best example would be using a j.b while behind tager, you will still get hit, and tager wil recover faster than you. Sledge hammer is also vulnerable to lows just like 6A.

HOWEVER sledge beats every Ada move in the game, and he can go right through it (even fuoco) so you need to punish it with Carl alone. Don't bother with using Ada as it will cause her to lose health and you need A LOT of it because of this mix up game that you need to pressure tager with.

The rest of the match

Ok, do you're behind Ada now which is good (usually you will be) now what you should do next is the next part of this sad match. It is ok to let Tager charge for spark bolt since Ada can take the hit for you, but if you're too close it will still magnetize you.

When you aren't magnetized you should aim for the usual C-O-N setup, but there are some things I want to make not of.

1. Tager's backdash makes Alle-can mixups useless and he can punish you for doing it

2. Aim for low attacks as much as possible (3D is probably the best option until Tager has less than half of his health.) Carl should not be grounded because Tager's can 360 him out of a lot of things (5B, 2B,) 6C is good, but it's counter hit stun isn't string enough to continue your combo

3. Don't leave any gaps for resets. This is probably the most challenging choice I had to make when playing this because I'm very used to it. Tager's 360 and 720 grabs are better than any DP for other Carl MU. Never stay grounded during gaps, you always want to be in the air. However if you become predictable they can 2C you which will lead to a fatal.

4. Always watch out for meter on both sides. Cantata does a bad job at protecting you if Ada loses all of her health since Tager can sledge through it. Tagers will generally Tech wheel if they are being pressured well, so if you get a tech wheel during your pressure string you're doing a good job, give yourself a pat on the back. If they RC afterwards you don't have to worry about 720, but they will probably use 360 or 2C depending on the situation. To avoid this, run away and throw the Tager off. You just wasted all his mete so don't risk anything by continuing pressure

Magnetized/Gadget finger reset :8/:

If you get magnetized... you lost (well not really but let's take a look at why you done goofed)

If you get magnetized, you will see a lot of goofy things going on in the fight. Tager players will get hit confirms that both players will not expect. Carl will fly around the stage so quickly which can mix up your inputs for Ada (most common is con anima coming out instead of fuoco) You will be subject to 5AAA, B which is dumb.

Did I mention 360?

Gadget finger reset

ok, this sucks for Carl because neutral is the worst position any Carl player wants to be in. This is the ONLY reason why I see this as being an even match up for Tager. Tager's use of 5A can prevent you from calling Ada, and leave Carl alone. The Tager player can use 5A--B for a low mix up. 5A can also prevent Carl from air dashing backwards. If you do manage to block 5A>B>6B then good job, but since you're magnetized you can also get 360'd or an atomic collider. Therefore you will either get lucky by jumping a way (avoiding 360) or using a poke to retaliate (VERY rare, but if they use atomic collider instead of 360 your poke will punish)

What should I do during gadget finger reset?

Unfortunately this is where grappling character gimmicks come into play so there isn't a set solution that will always let the Carl player win . Therefore, you need to guess right and get away from tager as quickly as possible. Either play can make or break the match if they win the guessing game, but Tager has a higher chance of punishing your mistake

Brief run through of what to do in match up

1. Stay in the air and 3D when in C-O-N. Very important.

2. If you get magnetized there is still hope, just stay away full screen as much as you can

3. If you do get gadget fingered into neutral, allegretto is probably your BEST option, if anybody knows of another don't hesitate to say what

4. JG's varied unblockable loops are beautiful. If you change up your unblockables you will do well, but DO NOT DO IT WHILE YOU ARE GROUNDED. Tagers LOVE to disrespect by mashing 360, regardless of how good a Carl player your are (watch Akira and Ryussei, I will post the link to their set as soon as I find it)

Here is the unblockable set up you want to abuse during this match

5B>6B>6D>6C>5B>2B>5C>3D> air dash forward>j.A>j.B>j.A>j.2C>j.B+3D>j.B>j.A,J.A[x until Ada is about to die)

Remember to time 3D well, or you will reset everything too soon. If that happens, you may be grounded in front of Tager and you know what that means...

There is also a vortex that you can use which is

5B>j.2C>j.B>j.C

this can take out a lot of health on tager. Remember that this is C-O-N only and you need to push Ada closer to Tager to have these moves connect continuously. Throw in a 3C after the second j.B of the 3rd rep to reset and create frame traps that will stuff 2C mash attempts

*** If you can't do either loop don't worry, it's not necessary and do not be intimidated by the 3D reset timings. They are MUCH easier than they seem (on here that is)

old video of how this match changed from CT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8WZhbmMP4I

ok, now Tager players can troll and say how they have it hard. This will be entertaining

Mind you, Carl has been laughing at Tager for what, 3 years?

[CrazyApe]

Match starter: 5C, 623D counters pretty much everything they throw out. I don't know about 4D, I'll need to test it out later and Edit this post.

Approaching Tager: With Nirvana in front of Carl: 5C 623D Counters sledges and jump ins.

Ill finish this post later I'm tired D=

[A.X.I.S.]

I was told that 5B stuff's carl's 5C but I don't know if they changed the hitbox back to like it was in CT or not.

I do know that Tager shouldn't jump in on Carl like that regardless.

[Zoogstin]

Match starter: 5C, 623D counters pretty much everything they throw out. I don't know about 4D, I'll need to test it out later and Edit this post.

Approaching Tager: With Nirvana in front of Carl: 5C 623D Counters sledges and jump ins.

Ill finish this post later I'm tired D=

I do this all the time against Tagers, HOWEVER, from my past experiences, if the Tager at the very start of the match does a NORMAL jump forward he dodges both attacks and can get a hit on Carl. Most Tagers do not know this and they always super jump. And I don't know if anything has changed to change this in EX.

[Isuyaru]

4D trades with 5C and Tager recovers in time to combo after. 5B stuffs Carl's 5C if timed correctly

Doing a normal jump forward doesn't seem to dodge 623D from my experience.

[Roldy]

From match experience, if both players use 5C at the start, Carl loses. Unless I do it late every time, I'm quite sure Tager's 5C beats Carl's 5C at starting position.

I usually compensate with dash 5B.

Or just run away at the beginning

[JG]

Just try to avoid sledgehammer. That move is way too easy to random mash.... and sadly it work. Hard to bait and punish.

[DeadliestxXx]

5-5 matchup ohohoh

[sinder]

5-5 matchup ohohoh

ohohohoh

FU!

seriously, I think it's time I update some of these MU threads

ESPECIALLY this one

looks like I gotz work

hopefully by tonight there will be some major tunings finished

[Psykotik]

5-5 matchup ohohoh

ohohohohohohohoho

more like 10-0 for tager ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[sinder]

--updated--

[Narcastic]

tager match up? me speechless. I'm a tager mainer myself, and I hardly fought a "good" tager in my region (I'm the best one here LOL).

well in case if I'm facing myself as tager, I can only say this. "when you got magnetize, NEVER do random tech, coz tager resets are NASTY!"