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Oleander

jump-install from jump discovery

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Sorry if this is old news, but I found the workings of from jump JI are different from what the guide suggests.

The Short Story

The guide suggests that as long as there is a jump that has not exhausted air options within a combo, you will retain those options. It suggests that the deciding factor in whether or not you keep your jump options from the ground is the combo itself, which is false.

From jump jump-installs exist because a jumping state is held until landing recovery ends. As long as you either start a combo or even do any move that takes you into the air from landing recovery (of a jump that has not exhausted its air options), you will keep air options, plain and simple.

The Long Story

I play I-no, poorly.

I was wondering why my HCL 6frc6 from dash -> ground combos were so inconsistent. Even when my execution felt dead on, there were times the dash would not come out. Any I-no player can identify with this. To test whether it was all in my head and my execution really was at fault or if there was some game engine quirk somewhere in the process that wasn't allowing me to dash, I fired up pcsx2 and turned the speed way down.

I discovered that the problem was indeed my execution, but not where I thought it counted.

To test this out, I'd do a quick 66 j.S 2k 2s HCL, then quickly save a state before the HCL came out. The very first run at about 3 frames per second, I could not get a dash to come out after a successful FRC. I thought it might be slo-mo weirdness, and even though the input record showed I was doing a-o-k, I decided to start a new save state. The next time around I got as many air dashes after the FRC as my heart desired with little to no effort. This happened over the next 4 or 5 tries. I wasn't satisfied that this was a fluke however, so I started doing the same thing and making more savestates. After a few more tries I got another chain where I absolutely could not get an air dash under a separate save slot, and I compared it with one where I could do it. This time it was certain that it wasn't the 6frc6 execution that was causing the problem.

I went back to the ggac frame data/guide section and read the jump install section carefully over, and confirmed that I had read right the first time: Air to ground combo = auto ji.

To test this further I went to Ky. I did a few simple j.H 5H 214K strings and after the RC I could double jump just fine. Although the 214K itself will not combo I chalked it up to the fact that it was starting from a jump-installed chain. This turned out to be right, but for the wrong reasons. The fact that it started from an air move that combo'd to a ground chain had absolutely nothing to do with the JI. This is where I got my first good idea. I tried a very low j.H into a late 5p that would still combo, though with plenty of time to recover from the landing, cancelled into 214K. After the RC I had no air options.

I went back to I-no and tested a few things out. I found out that if you just do a naked jump, even from the other side of the screen and HCL as soon as you hit the ground, after the FRC you have jump options, whether the HCL connects or whiffs. I started experimenting with her air normals closer to the ground to see what kind of ground recovery they had, and found what is probably common knowledge to i-no players: Her air moves have little to no landing recovery. I started experimenting with her hover dash a bit, being (off the top of my head) the only landing in the game that carries momentum on the ground. My initial thinking was that as long as she had momentum, she had JI. This also turned out to be wrong, and in fact somewhat the opposite. I found that you can successfully tell if an air to ground chain WILL have jump install if the ground chain DOES NOT carry the ground momentum it should, which is how jump install usually works anyway. <-- this turned out to be false, I've successfully double jumped HCLs with momentum in a ground chain.

The problem I, and probably many new I-no players have as well is that sometimes there will be too much time between a low enough air move and the ground chain that follows, allowing her to fully recover from landing on the ground while still allowing the combo to register.

Therefore, my problem was execution during the crucial frames between an air normal and the following 2k, putting too much space between them allowed her to recover and lose the JI, but keep the momentum.

Notes

This also means that the air move does NOT have to combo into the ground chain to keep the jump install, nor do you have to do an air normal at all.

Example: Johnny j.P 6HS KJ FRC

This obviously doesn't combo, and again the j.p and even the 6H are completely optional. You can even empty jump, and as long as you execute any move from landing recovery, even the special you want to JI with by itself, you will keep JI.

You CANNOT superjump from landing recovery and have special air options, but you CAN super jump from a jump cancellable normal started from landing recovery and have special air options without the need for a traditional gatling jump install on an earlier normal.

The landing carries over the air options from the jump before it. Example: You CAN land a normal jump, do any jump-cancellable move from landing recovery, super jump, and double jump that. However, you CANNOT do a jump cancellable normal from superjump landing, and double jump from another super jump.

The combo itself does not have to be a chain to carry the jump install. Example: Slayer can either empty jump or j.H, 6H and link 5P, sjc and keep the double jump option.

This is not to say every hit must combo to keep the JI, for example as long as slayer executes 236236H from the first frame after 5p, which will NOT combo, it will keep JI.

Wow, I keep discovering new things

...or possibly old things.

That last Slayer note got me thinking, and more slowmo testing it seems that moves do not even have to connect to anything to carry JI, as long as you never return to a neutral state.

This means you can completely whiff a move on landing recovery, or any series of moves at all, and as long as they are all done without a single frame between the recovery of one move and the startup of the next, you can end with a special that keeps JI without ever connecting to anything but move that carried you into the air, or not! (in some cases)

Example: i-no hover dash, 5p 5s 5s 5s 5h 2h 2d ADS 5d 2k 6h 2k 2k VCL FRC 8, and provided there were absolutely no frames between the startup and recovery of each of those moves you will get the double jump, even if every single one of those moves whiffed entirely.

This also works with moves that have auto JI, for example: Sol BR immediately into BB will keep the JI from BR, provided the BB is launched the exact moment recovery ends for BR whether it whiffed or not.

After some more slow-mo wizardry I have some solid numbers:

I-no's landing from both dash and jump give you 3 frames to keep JI, the first of which will make you lose momentum while the second 2 will carry both momentum and JI. After the 3rd landing frame you may have momentum but will lose JI. This isn't the same for all characters however, as Ky apparently has 5 frames of landing that he can keep JI. I'll create a full chart soon.

AB - 3

AN - 3

AX - 4

BA - 3

BR - 3

CH - 3

DI - 4

ED - 3

FA - 3

I- - 3

JA - 3

JO - 3

KY - 5

MA - 4

MI - 3

OS - 5

RO - 5

PO - 4

SL - 4

SO - 3

TE - 4

VE - 3

ZA - 3

Note that if you try to get a move to come out on the exact frame it shows the character touching the ground, you will be 1 frame early.

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Video example of retaining JI via canceling landing recovery with a jump cancelable move:

Even if this isn't technically news, the way it's explained in the guide should be revised. "For some strange reason" should never be part of what's supposed to be a comprehensive guide, anyways.

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I think most advanced players know about this. I found out about that with Slayer, 2 or 3 years ago. The combo was something like 2D>RC>5HS>j.HS>j.K>(jump install part)>5HS>sj.HS>sj.D>sj.2K>sj.K>dsj.S>dsj.2K>dsj.D

Then I had tested it with other characters and saw that it isn't something specific.

But I didn't know it works from an empty jump or whiffing a move, so thank you for that :)

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ok so after more testing with the same i-no string, i've run into instances where you can have momentum and keep JI, and lose momentum and NOT have JI.

so I guess "for some reason" is still the best answer we have?

basically manual JI shouldn't exist

EDIT: updated OP

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