[CSE] Litchi Faye Ling - Kokushi Musou (Thirteen Orphans) Oki Thread

[Lord Knight]

A short, complete guide to Kokushi Musou, how it works, what other characters can do about it, and what you can do about them. (Note - I won't mention Hakumen anywhere else in this thread. Kokushi okizeme is impossible to use against Hakumen)

Traditionally in Continuum Shift, Litchi would rely on Daisharin (Great Wheel) for okizeme. It's strength lay in its versatility - because you could control which way the super moved, not only could you prevent the opponent from rolling out, she was able to perform an unseeable combination of high/low/throw for mixup. In addition, Litchi gained the ability to counter a variety of characters answers to her standard okizeme. And on top of all that, in both CS1 and CS2, she was able to gain back the meter she used on Daisharin, and used it again (and in CS2, this hurt - a lot!).

In Extend, however, Daisharin has been severely weakened. Although you still have the option to use it for okizeme, not only does the super move less (5 movements instead of 6), but the damage and meter gain you get from it have been severely reduced to the point where it is generally considered to be a sub-par use of her meter. Instead, we turn to Kokushi Musou (13 Orphans) for mixup.

Kokushi is much less versatile than Daisharin, but it serves the same basic premise - prevent the opponent from rolling out, and perform high/low mixup against the opponent. Her mixup options with Kokushi are simple, so rather than explaining how to do them (as they are simple inputs), I want to discuss what reward you get for doing them.

1) 6A - High hit, 80 P1, around 3600 damage. Meter gain is about 33-36.

2) jC - High hit, 90 P1, around 3800 damage. Meter gain is about 35-38. Best against Tager and Relius, against everyone else you are sacrificing a mixup attempt by going for it.

3) 3C - Low hit, 100 P1, around 4400 damage. Meter gain is about 39-43.

There is no way to get a green throw during Kokushi Musou.

--

Now, on to the main topic of discussion. A common line of thought is that as Kokushi can't be "changed" (like Daisharin), whatever answer a character has for the super will simply work all of the time. This is not true. While it is correct that you can't do anything to change Kokushi, what you can do is change how you go into the super itself.

1) 6A > 5D > Kokushi - This is the standard method used to go into Kokushi. Against a vast majority of the cast, this is your prime way to go into okizeme (especially if they don't have meter). However, there are characters that shut this down.

Bang - Drive teleport, slide Ashura and probably Daifunka

Carl - Slides out free, can also use Brio

Ragna - DP rc.

Jin - Yukikaze

Rachel - Neutral tech, Wind out

Arakune - Counter Assault

Mu - Cinematic super

Hazama - Jayoku RC

Relius - Gear super

Tager - MTW, 720, Sledge

Makoto - Slide Particle Flare

Universal - Try to defend till the end, then Counter Assault

Basically although this is the fundamental Litchi setup, it has one big weakness - you're doing 6A > 5D > Kokushi. 6A does not have enough untech time to deal with these answers (in some cases). In other cases, it's the character themselves that have a blatant advantage over Kokushi.

Bang - Can't do anything. Don't use this setup.

Carl - Can't do anything. Don't use this setup.

Ragna - 3C if you read DP RC. DP RC is somewhat risky answer anyways, they will more likely try to defend and Counter Assault the end of Kokushi.

Jin - If he has meter for Yukikaze, you cannot use Kokushi okizeme against him.

Rachel - Can't do anything. Don't use this setup unless she has no wind.

Arakune - At the tip of Litchi 6A range, his CA will whiff.

Mu - Can't do anything. Don't use this setup when she has meter.

Hazama - This requires 100 meter, so don't worry about it too much.

Relius - Can't do anything. Don't use this setup when he has 50 meter.

Tager - Can't do anything. Don't use this setup against him.

Makoto - Can't do anything. Don't use this setup when she has 50 meter.

Universal - You have to try to hit them before the end of the super!

2) 6D > dash 6C(1) > 4Kote > 6C(2) > Kokushi - You're sacrificing some damage and meter gain to go into this setup, but you get the benefit of actually being able to do okizeme to characters that can beat 6A > 5D > Kokushi.

Bang - Drive. Supers can be blocked.

Carl - Have to check, but I'd assume slide.

Ragna - Don't need to use this setup vs him.

Jin - Yukikaze

Rachel - Nothing. Has to block.

Arakune - Don't need to use this setup vs him, unless you lack confidence in your execution (because doing aerial into 6A > 5D > Kokushi can be hard)

Mu - Nothing, has to block.

Hazama - Nothing, has to block.

Relius - Nothing, has to block.

Tager - MTW, 720, Sledge

Makoto - Nothing, has to block.

As you can see, this deals with a great amount of Litchi's headaches, at a small cost of damage and meter gain going into the setup (of course, if you use optimal combos, this doesn't really matter). I highly suggest using this setup against Rachel, Relius, Mu and Makoto, if the situation calls for it.

3) 6D > 5B > 6C(1) > 4kote > j9B > dj > j7BC > land Kokushi

Bang - Drive teleport, but can be beaten if you read it. Supers lose.

Carl - Nothing, you can punish slide and Brio shouldn't touch you.

Ragna - Nothing, has to block, not worth doing on him because of lost damage and meter gain

Jin - Yukikaze

Rachel - Can neutral tech and wind out

Arakune - Nothing, has to block

Mu - Cinematic super might reach, have to check

Hazama - Nothing, has to block

Relius - Probably nothing, need to check

Tager - Nothing. Sledge can be punished, MTW and 720 will not reach Litchi

Makoto - Nothing, has to block.

I especially recommend this setup against Tager, although I want to check damage/meter gain comparison between this setup and the prior setup. At the very least, this setup is much easier to do than the above one, so if you have trouble, this setup is still effective.

4) 6D > dash 6C(1) > 6C(2) > 6A > Kokushi - This is the hardest setup to do, if you do the second 6C wrong, the 6A will blue beat.

Bang - Nothing, supers can be blocked and she recovers fast enough to make drives whiff

Carl - Probably nothing, have to check

Ragna - Nothing, but you don't need to do this to him

Jin - Yukikaze

Rachel - Nothing, has to block.

Arakune - Nothing, but you don't need to use this on him

Mu - Nothing, has to block

Hazama - Nothing

Relius - Nothing

Tager - 720

Makoto - Nothing

This setup, if you can do it consistently, is perfect to use against Bang, although setup number 3 should work just as well.

So what do I do against Jin if Yukikaze beats everything?

Use meterless okizeme!

[Cobalt]

4) 6D > dash 6C(1) > 6C(2) > 6A > Kokushi - This is the hardest setup to do, if you do the second 6C wrong, the 6A will blue beat.

I've been trying this, and I found a way to get it pretty consistently against Bang. After 6D, hold 6, then press C as late as possible before Bang hits the ground. Cancel into kote and do the rest of the ender as quickly as possible and it'll work. Not sure how well that works against the rest of the cast.

edit: Actually maybe don't wait as late as possible, just almost as late as possible. In any case, the hardest part about this is linking kote > 6C as quickly as possible.

[E3vE3 WAZ HEA]

cant you grab jin out of yukikaze if you see it coming?

[Lord Knight]

like i said, there's no way to way to green throw someone with a kokushi setup

[deadsnake]

maybe he meant baiting jin's yukikaze although that is totally outside of the kokushi context

[Star-Demon]

Which one does the 6A ender to kokushi go under?

[Lord Knight]

its the first one

[E3vE3 WAZ HEA]

maybe he meant baiting jin's yukikaze although that is totally outside of the kokushi context

yea i meant like do any end and don't use kokushi but since he think you will he'll use yukikaze and then grab.

also i did once by total accident (my remotes stick is a bit broken so inputs become hell to do at times v.v) a jin woke up, did yukikaze but kokushi didnt come out until after he was finished and he got counter hit. so what about delaying it instead of doing it right way (you know for if he has 50 meter)

[Kujikawa]

Hakumen can't Yukikaze out?

[Dusk Thanatos]

Hakumen can't Yukikaze out?

(Note - I won't mention Hakumen anywhere else in this thread. Kokushi okizeme is impossible to use against Hakumen)

Yeah

[Nakkiel]

He doesn't even need to spend meter, he can 6D or 2D through it.

[TD]

l want to test this idea l had vs haku where you stand just out of range while haku is d'ing kokushi, and punishing with her longest horizontal staffless attack (chun? 5c? 6b, l have no idea) as soon as the recovery of his d attack is done...

...but i'm lazy and don't really care much for litchi anymore, so there it is, if someone else would like to experiment with that feel free to.

[toanenadiz]

If Haku counters a move, he is invincible during the entire attack part of it. You can't punish it in any way once he counters something.

[ATG Warlord]

I thought about the same thing yesterday but for 6D ... i tested it against his 6D and litchi's haku. unfortunately, it doesn't work.

I think it could work against his 2D(attack) though as the active and recovery frames have a 5F difference, but i wouldn't risk it.

Anybody know good Daisharin gimmicks to use against haku?

I usually go for 191 > grab

[Kujikawa]

I read the whole post this time, but I didn't see Noel.

I just played a Noel and because I was mixing her up, she managed to CA out of my mix-up/pressure during Kokushi.

[Lord Knight]

you cant use it vs her

[Nakkiel]

I thought about the same thing yesterday but for 6D ... i tested it against his 6D and litchi's haku. unfortunately, it doesn't work.

I think it could work against his 2D(attack) though as the active and recovery frames have a 5F difference, but i wouldn't risk it.

There is absolutely no way to punish a successful D from Hakumen. Never use kokushi against him, it is a complete waste of meter. As are any daisharin gimmicks because the reward is extremely low in most situations. Just use your meterless options, they're excellent against Hakumen.

[mynus]

Video made by Chaoto which goes through what LK basically wrote up but in video form, and the examples of various punishes characters have against her.

One thing which should be updated is that the 6D > 6C(1) > j.9B > dj.7B,C should not be used on Tager while he is sitting on 50% meter, or enough meter to get 50% from the first two hits of Sledge.

Video: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm18240163

[DJ_Blactricity]

Video made by Chaoto which goes through what LK basically wrote up but in video form, and the examples of various punishes characters have against her.

One thing which should be updated is that the 6D > 6C(1) > j.9B > dj.7B,C should not be used on Tager while he is sitting on 50% meter, or enough meter to get 50% from the first two hits of Sledge.

Video: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm18240163

At 2:26 it showed tao jumping and barrier blocking kokushi. Is tao the only character who can do this or can everyone with a jump startup of 4 frames do it?

[mynus]

At 2:26 it showed tao jumping and barrier blocking kokushi. Is tao the only character who can do this or can everyone with a jump startup of 4 frames do it?

The vid says every character, But Tager does not need to do this/does not apply.