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Nehle

AC+R: Dizzy Changes

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that depends how long for it to auto burst... for example throw > 214 Hs. k fish tk bubble-> iad foword> Iad back j.2s jhs> to bring opponent to bubble> land and do ambigous cross over jump> auto detonate fun cross over.

rather the old style throw> hs lazer fish IAD just above head s/k bubble for ambigous cross over although its not that ambigous.

something like that be fun to play with, using the right set ups.

I don't think it's gonna be used that much in blockstrings. I think it's just something that aids dizzy in the mind game I talked about above - "gee whiz, if you don't attack this bubble, it's gonna explode on you, but if you DO, then Dizzy can do what she wants while you attack the air"

EDIT: Actually, scratch that, I think you CAN use it in blockstrings, if you prefer to bait stuff instead of doing mixups immediately, something like

2D (knockdown) > TK p bubble > 2p 2p 2k 2d (all attacks miss bubble) > summon (bubble pops about this time?) > advantage!

But then you lose out on the high/low, as almost all attacks that are overhead would also pop a bubble

Yay choices!?!?

Edited by Nehle

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Thanks for the clarification on that.

There's also this part, the untranslated line for the following entry:

Fish Summon S or HS

On air hit: causes wall stick.

派生から出した場合の前進距離が短くなりました。

Thanks in advance.

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Thanks for the clarification on that.

There's also this part, the untranslated line for the following entry:

Fish Summon S or HS

On air hit: causes wall stick.

派生から出した場合の前進距離が短くなりました。

Thanks in advance.

According to Shinjin, this was hard to translate, but after some mutual guessing back and forth we guess it might mean something like

"If used as a follow-up, it will have more forward momentum"

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I don't think it's gonna be used that much in blockstrings. I think it's just something that aids dizzy in the mind game I talked about above - "gee whiz, if you don't attack this bubble, it's gonna explode on you, but if you DO, then Dizzy can do what she wants while you attack the air"

EDIT: Actually, scratch that, I think you CAN use it in blockstrings, if you prefer to bait stuff instead of doing mixups immediately, something like

2D (knockdown) > TK p bubble > 2p 2p 2k 2d (all attacks miss bubble) > summon (bubble pops about this time?) > advantage!

But then you lose out on the high/low, as almost all attacks that are overhead would also pop a bubble

Yay choices!?!?

Well yes that's why I said its a bad tool at neutral but when you have oki, it is going to be amazing and the option are limitless. So I am looking forward to that.

EDIT: btw do u think it is possible to do some reload style mix up I wouldn't mind being able to do HS lazer fish double air dash cross over jhs. Lol, stratch that, now I just want to play gg again.

Edited by zaeris

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2nd loketest stream has some Dizzy action going on if anyone is interested.

I'll probably update this post with any observations from the loketest.

Stuff that I saw:

- 5H > 2D gatling; stuff > 2D > Ice Spike

- 421D (FB Spear); fires in a linear motion towards an opponent and does pretty good guard meter damage. It looked possible to be able to use this move after a 421S, probably after the spear was active.

- 236D (D Ice Spike); longer range than H version, approximate range looks to be about 3/4 of the screen (maybe doubled H Ice Spike range?). At zoomed-in screen, D Ice Spike would reach all the way to the edge, with Dizzy at the edge of the screen range. At zoomed-out fullscreen, D Ice Spike would reach at around 3/4 screen distance, with Dizzy at the edge of the screen range. Can be FRCed, looks to be same FRC timing as H Ice Spike.

- somewhat point-blank TK Bubble summon into insta-pop is no good, got punished every time by opponent popping bubble with an attack that also hit Dizzy. Tested against I-No 5P.

- bait/punish scenarios for CH stuffs with opponent disarming bubble at range via a poke looks somewhat promising.

- 214K (K Fish Summon); attack range is shorter, looked like something between the range of 5H to H Ice Spike.

- Gamma Ray FRC; seemed to look lenient in timing.

- Bubble auto-explode stuffs; saw something like a launch > whatever > opponent lands on explosion, possible juggle opportunity afterwards.

- increased forward guard range stuffs; range to initiate guard was tested.

- 214D (D Fish Summon); appears to be a fish summon that is larger than normal fish summons that starts up behind Dizzy and moves forward horizontally for a short distance and does a bite attack then moves back in front of her and disappears (if she doesn't move from her original starting position). Appears to follow a static range like K Fish Summon. Causes 'Stagger' on hit, appears to be a short period.

- 214S Fish Summon Laser wallstick; in corner, was possible to follow-up with an air combo after the wallstick.

Hopefully, someone uses Dizzy again soon...

Edited by Kurokun

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2nd loketest stream has some Dizzy action going on if anyone is interested.

I'll probably update this post with any observations from the loketest.

Stuff that I saw:

- 5H > 2D gatling; stuff > 2D > Ice Spike

- 421D (FB Spear); fires in a linear motion towards an opponent and does pretty good guard meter damage. It looked possible to be able to use this move after a 421S, probably after the spear was active.

- 236D (D Ice Spike); longer range than H version, approximate range looks to be about 3/4 of the screen (maybe doubled H Ice Spike range?). At zoomed-in screen, D Ice Spike would reach all the way to the edge, with Dizzy at the edge of the screen range. At zoomed-out fullscreen, D Ice Spike would reach at around 3/4 screen distance, with Dizzy at the edge of the screen range. Can be FRCed, looks to be same FRC timing as H Ice Spike.

- somewhat point-blank TK Bubble summon into insta-pop is no good, got punished every time by opponent popping bubble with an attack that also hit Dizzy. Tested against I-No 5P.

- bait/punish scenarios for CH stuffs with opponent disarming bubble at range via a poke looks somewhat promising.

- 214K (K Fish Summon); attack range is shorter, looked like something between the range of 5H to H Ice Spike.

- Gamma Ray FRC; seemed to look lenient in timing.

- Bubble auto-explode stuffs; saw something like a launch > whatever > opponent lands on explosion, possible juggle opportunity afterwards.

- increased forward guard range stuffs; range to initiate guard was tested.

- 214D (D Fish Summon); appears to be a fish summon that is larger than normal fish summons and moves forward horizontally for a short distance and does a bite attack.

- 214S Fish Summon Laser wallstick; in corner, was possible to follow-up with an air combo after the wallstick.

Hopefully, someone uses Dizzy again soon...

Thanks for the update!

Liking full-screen ice spike. TAKE THAT AXL >:o .. Also all other full-screen punishers (TE, PO, IN.. I'm looking at you) suddenly, Dizzy can force opponents to be in an extremely narrow space to avoid summon mind games.. Jesus christ.. at 25% tension, Dizzy is gonna be EXTREMELY hard to catch (bubble, dagger, ice spike frc:s)

We're moving up the tier list people!

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D Ice Spike is HYPE.

The range of that move... full-screen Ice Spike sniping!

Need to see more of D Fish Summon in action though.

Added some info about this in my other post.

I hope more Dizzy players get featured on stream.

I've only seen like 5 of them over the course of the loketest stream, lol.

Edited by Kurokun

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Thanks for the update!

Liking full-screen ice spike. TAKE THAT AXL >:o .. Also all other full-screen punishers (TE, PO, IN.. I'm looking at you) suddenly, Dizzy can force opponents to be in an extremely narrow space to avoid summon mind games.. Jesus christ.. at 25% tension, Dizzy is gonna be EXTREMELY hard to catch (bubble, dagger, ice spike frc:s)

We're moving up the tier list people!

Atm I'm only excited about D ice spike which is what dizzy needed against most of her unfavourable match up e.g. bridget, Axl, Venom, faust and who else outzones her? Maybe eddie.

FB Air pike which is usable after a normal air pike is rather interesting. The bubble nerf is going to make me sad and using it to bait is not exactly what I believe is practical since dizzy is always running away where bubble summoning was the safest option we have, now when dizzy runs she will be cornered faster by speedy characters chipp, millia, jam. Lol, overall I think the zoning game will get better but rush down characters are likely to have a bigger advantage over her.

Edited by zaeris

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FB Air Pike gives her more than +22 on block.

D Fish cause stagger on hit, but there is no stagger gauge.

Fish glitch still there.

FB Bubble is strange. I saw how it disappear after some time. Next time I saw it pops instead of simply disappearing.

Edited by Horokei

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D Ice Spike is a really nice addition, though the long range for full-screen usage seems specific at times.

You could overshoot the distance and the Ice Spike will appear behind the opponent (and maybe off-screen).

Or, you could undershoot the distance and the Ice Spike will only hit the area in front of the opponent.

The FB Spear after normal spear thing could be a timing issue but that's how it appeared to me anyway.

Bubble stuff will be fine for oki but outside of that it will probably be only useful in specific scenarios.

Good find on that bit of info D Fish stuff, Horokei.

I just saw that a few moments ago on the loketest stream and in your post as well, lol.

Edited by Kurokun

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I also think that D Ice Spike frc can give you some time to summon something on block. Not only to counterpoke Venom, Axl or Faust

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IIRC, I think I saw a D Ice Spike FRC followed up by an IAD j.H into whatever, in the corner though.

Saw some random combo stuff like:

... > 236H > 236D (would hit OTG)

I saw some Dizzy players do stuff with 421D like:

... > 2H/2D > 421D (would hit OTG for damage)

I also saw 421D hit Ky who was doing the startup animation of a SE at range, and the attack hit him out of it.

I haven't seen straight up 421D vs. other chars projectiles in direct opposition of each other though.

Edited by Kurokun

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After 236H at midscreen Dizzy probably can do 214H fish and then 236D. So Dizzy hits with meaty icespike. If you frc and they block you can do blockstring or maybe new summon. On hit they will launch and then fall right into laser => wallslam => combo.

This is something similar to her corner DP safe okizeme

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Went into training mode and tried to do CH Ice Spike > 214H > (laser)

Not enough time to summon as opponent dropped to the ground before the laser went off, even with CH Ice Spike FRC.

If 214S was already active and you do a CH Ice Spike, it probably would work.

Something off of 2H CH could probably work though.

Edited by Kurokun

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After 236H at midscreen Dizzy probably can do 214H fish and then 236D. So Dizzy hits with meaty icespike. If you frc and they block you can do blockstring or maybe new summon. On hit they will launch and then fall right into laser => wallslam => combo.

This is something similar to her corner DP safe okizeme

I don't think 214s/hs will combo after an ice spike even if you frc, that thing is extremely slow on start up, maybe on CH as Kurokun mention, since alot of us do frc after ice spike just to set up meaty oki and thats about as far as you will get. 214S HS > ice spike would work for sure, but that doesn't rely on mix up however.

@kurokun

above post.

back to AC combo lol,

2c CH> 214S HS > dash 421 S hold > IAD j.d/hs bubble > wall stick lol sounds interesting enough.

Edited by zaeris

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You miss a point. You summon laser fish _before_ doing 236D for _okizeme_. In corner against Sol Dizzy can do 214H~P 236H laser 236H. And this is legit combo. And with wallslam on laser in ACR you probably don't even need corner now.

And I'm talking about:

midscreen combo into 236H, then for okizeme 214H~S or H => meaty 236D frc, laser..

In AC opponent can just jump out of 214H after 236H at midscreen but now he will think twice before jumping

Edited by Horokei

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Looking at the setup you posted up, would the 236D (Ice Spike) be the only thing you'd do after the 214H~H (or S) for oki?

I don't see this working if the opponent blocks successfully upon wake-up, unless they didn't block or something.

If D Ice Spike (FRC) is the only thing you are doing after Fish Summon okizeme in this scenario, it's kind of a waste since it's a one-shot deal for something (wallstick), especially considering that the Ice Spike is your only attempt to launch the opponent onto a laser for a wallstick.

I could see the setup working once to catch a jump out, which would probably reward you with a laser into wallstick for whatever. Realistically though, you give up pressure via okizeme through rushdown after the 214H laser, where your normal options are dash 2K or IAD j.2S.

At mid-screen, I'm doing either a Ice Spike FRC carry combo into the corner then oki (or better oki setup after Ice Spike FRC) or crossover oki stuffs after a 2D KD.

Edited by Kurokun

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You miss a point. You summon laser fish _before_ doing 236D for _okizeme_. In corner against Sol Dizzy can do 214H~P 236H laser 236H. And this is legit combo. And with wallslam on laser in ACR you probably don't even need corner now.

And I'm talking about:

midscreen combo into 236H, then for okizeme 214H~S or H => meaty 236D frc, laser..

In AC opponent can just jump out of 214H after 236H at midscreen but now he will think twice before jumping

I mention that 214s/hs before using ice spike is possible but that is not a mix up, it is more of a tech trap and that is why dizzy players tend to use when throw dash 2k f.s > ice spike doesn't hit them low enough. The purpose was for them to mid air tech, where ice spike their air tech forces them to land, so you can mix them up on the ground.

Anyway what you say would work, but that is not a mix up, and maybe a waste of meters since kd into fish is already a solid oki. then you can add air spike hold, IAD j2s x 2, scyher k/s ectera, why ice spike frc if your opponent is going to block. Most people after a KD vs dizzy know she has oki, they are not going to be pressing buttons. Unless it is the above circumstance where they can air tech or recover before landing. if you see this you can ice spike meaty to keep them grounded or go for air throws traps.

In AC opponent can just jump out of 214H after 236H at midscreen but now he will think twice before jumping

let say this is mid screen, after 236h you should frc here instead so you can dash up and summon fish, this point here will be meaty instead and not jumpable but beside that what is wrong with 214s iad j2s oki? or if I know its techable early 214hs/h fish jump j.s to hit them jumping instead.

Edited by zaeris

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I have problem with English and it seems I can't explain thigs properly.

The only way I see this working is if a laser fish is summoned beforehand and then the opponent is launched by an Ice Spike and falls onto the laser for wallstick if you are near the proximity of the corner.

That what I'm talking about.

Looking at the other stuff you posted up, would the 236D (Ice Spike) be the only thing you'd do after the 214H~H (or S) for oki?

Does she got better options in this kind of situations when she scores knockdown at almost fullscreen? Gasp between wake-up and laser so huge and before ACR Dizzy had nothing to cover that. Right now with 236D she can force opponent to block, not to _jump_. So she create some oppotunities for herself to do something else if opponent prepared to block.

then you can add air spike hold, IAD j2s x 2, scyher k/s ectera, why ice spike frc if your opponent is going to block.

And this kind of situations now evolves from "I have no options" to "guess what i'll do next".

And of course she had better options for midscreen oki from 2D, 2H or 236H frc.

I mention that 214s/hs before using ice spike is possible but that is not a mix up

I never said that it's a mixup. It's more like almost unescapable frametrap with no risk even without frc, since

what is wrong with 214s iad j2s oki? or if I know its techable early 214hs/h fish jump j.s to hit them jumping instead.

contains a risk.

And forgive me if I post stupid ideas, but my only opponent plays Baiken. So I prefer to do frametraps and tick-throws instead of solid oki and mixups.

UPD. FB Air Pike does GB+

Edited by Horokei

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I never said that it's a mixup. It's more like almost unescapable frametrap with no risk even without frc, since

contains a risk.

And forgive me if I post stupid ideas, but my only opponent plays Baiken. So I prefer to do frametraps and tick-throws for instead of solid oki and mixups.

well baiken (bacon) is a different kettle of fish rather ^^, although I can see you attempting this at full screen and she will just ouran gc into ouran frc, Well the idea is fine, I just can't justify the meter spent but like you said maybe you can use it for that circumstance, your opponent is full screen from whatever, so you go full screen ice spike frc into fish... although for me I would go ice spike D frc IAD j2s/ or IAD land 2k if I was that positive in frame advantage.

But in reality if it full screen away, I wouldn't care and just spam more summons to control space and let them jump because I will have a fish and air pike out waiting for them to land, then scypher to control air space. lol, guess I will stop because I don't see benifit in a full screen ice spike as oki. Usually playing as dizzy the opponent is always in my face or near me, and the only time we would be full screen apart is if they can outzone me e.g venom and faust.

Edited by zaeris

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I like to use meaty Ice Spike as okizeme sometimes in AC. If the opponent tries something you get a CH in the corner, otherwise you're still safe (wasted mixup option but oh well). Especially against characters who, since I'm not approaching on the oki, think that they have time to dodge or poke the fish . It's a legit strategy.

So, yeah, meaty full screen ice spike is definitely an option (the other option from midscreen ice spike is IAD mixup on the spot, without summons). However, I get the feeling that it's going to become predictable real fast that midscreen ice followed by laser will result in meaty ice spike, and even with FRC, I don't think you have time to properly follow it up if they just block.

So, yeah, it's an option, but I think I'd rather go for 2d / 2h > summon instead of ice spike at mid screen, because I simply get even more options off of that. But hey, extra options never hurt!

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At first, I thought you were talking about Ice Spike launch onto a Fish laser for wallstick, which was something of it's own thing.

Then with the next thing you posted up, after looking at it for a bit, it looked like it was an oki setup with a possible wallstick scenario.

I can visualize the scenario you're thinking of and it could work, but it's a one-shot deal. Your opponent is likely to fall for it once but afterwards not so much since you give up rushdown pressure/mixup through oki, especially when they realize your action of doing a D Ice Spike is more-or-less telegraphed because of the positioning. For a setup that could possibly involve getting a wallstick, it's interesting. For oki though in regard to positioning, there are better options to be had, IMO.

With Ice Spike at mid-screen, you always want to use the FRC, whenever possible, to have better positioning for oki, especially since you can do a followup combo to carry the opponent into the corner (for corner oki) or just do a IAD followup combo for damage. The other option is to use 2H or 2D for KD then do summon oki at mid-screen, maybe even a crossover oki option depending on the KD and the oki setup used.

I can see Ice Spike oki stuff having a purpose (like what Nehle uses it for), but it's for a specific situation and it isn't your only option as far as oki stuffs go.

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Bubble looks so sad right now. I guess they thought K fish (with the distance also nerfed) coming back to pop the bubble is too cheap... They made sure it doesn't happen when Dizzy somehow gets hit after sending out fish and bubble.

I don't see any particularly useful buff other than 236D. It will actually help in some matchups (even in Dizzy vs Dizzy !!!! I look forward to play that matchup).

Speaking of matchups, Zappa sword doesn't look so free for Dizzy anymore, with his near full screen sword pressure...

2D was still jump cancelable, so that was relief.

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The few times I saw Dizzy players test bubble stuff was them trying out various situations regarding summoning it and the possibility of interruption via an opponents' attack. Things didn't look good, but the possibility for scenarios to punish opponents doing stand-alone pokes to disarm bubbles at range seemed hopeful though. Hard to see auto-explode stuffs at work because opponents were popping bubble easily.

Barely saw any FB Bubble stuffs used either, probably due to 25% Tension cost.

236D is a highlight for sure.

I want to play Dizzy vs Dizzy matchup with you again, woki.

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