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ludwig van

[P4A] Naoto Shirogane - Gameplay Discussion "Ace Detective"

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Okay so after playing Naoto for a few minutes, she definitely is a bit more technical than I thought, but it's nothing that we can't handle. One of the things you need to get used to is to press D everytime you're done using Aim, it doesn't cancel by itself as Ginseng mentioned a while back. Also it's easy to mess up an Aim combo if you're fingers aren't fast, and the window for "correctly" Super Cancelling after Aim bullets is pretty small, as it's easy to "Yellow Beat."

As for IAD twin Double Fangs, I was only able to successfully perform it twice, but with a little grinding, it's doable.

Haven't done any SMP combos though. :v:

Anyway that's all I can say for now. Back to the lab! :)

Holding D during 236B worked for me for the auto cancel. And yeah, i couldn't get the IAD extension in my short time with it too lol.

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Practiced the IAD combos some more a bit and the trick is know exactly when it's possible to JC 5C at the first possible frame. Yes you can JC 5C on hit, but you can't just JC it normally right away, you have to wait a bit before you jump.

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Starting to get the hang of the IAD combos more. The trick is to NOT overestimate 5C's range and after stuff > 5C > IAD > j.A/j.B > j.C, delay your 5C just a tiny bit right when you land. For now, I'm just doing stuff like 214D > trap hits > 5C > IAD > j.A > j.C > land > 5C > 236B~D > 66 > 5C > 236A and (j.C) > 5A > 5C > 236B~D > 5C > 236A~D when I know my opponent will end up in the corner just to keep it safe.

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Finally got to play the game. Naoto's a lot of fun (as is the game in general), going to grind some more tomorrow.

Also, shoutouts to Denpa repping Naoto well in SBO.

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The combination of ipad and slow internet prevents me from watching videos. Could some kind soul please post transcripts of combos in the videos above?

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Noob question. how do you escape Naoto's IK Mortal blow super? i.e. what's the pattern of those unblockable crosshair and avoiding them? (Because you know on laggy netplay, people are going to abuse this for awhile)

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Did a bit of testing and when you're performing SMP combos without backdashing into [2C], you perform [2C] right when the opponent is at peak height after setting off 214D. Also, someone from Mayonaka Midnight called Tempered said that when you're performing [2C] > 2B, you need to delay the 2B so that you won't hit them high in the air, or else they'll be able to air tech. Also, just to let you guys know, when I was practicing it, I underestimated how long the delay needed to be and as a result, they were able to tech. Anyway while I mentioned these before, here are the two basic SMP loops that I think are important to learn due to their starter, their practicality of them, and how easy they are to perform.

1. 5AA > 5B > 2C > Mudoon > jump forward > 214D > 2A+B > 236A~D > trap hits > [2C] > 5C > [236B~D]xN

Note: For me personally, it's easier if you backdash into [2C], just so you won't have to time [2C]. Plus there's no delay required for the 5C afterward.

2. 5B > 5C > 2C > Mudoon > jump forward > 214D > 5AA > 236A~D > trap hits > [2C] > delay > 2B > [236B~D]xN

Note: For when you're too far for 5A and able to confirm off of a well spaced 5B. Kamohito's version of this uses a backdash into [2C] followed by a dash in 2B. Honestly, I could never get the dash in 5B to come out consistently nor able to have the dash in 2B hit the opponent before they recovered so I just took Tempered's advice and omitted the backdash, learned the timing for when I perform [2C], and the 2B delay and now I'm able to perform the loop more consistently now.

Now the loop that I'm about to post below is more difficult than the first two, but it's just as important IMO since it's not uncommon to land a sweep due to footsies and spacing, or in a blockstring where you've exhausted almost all of your normals. I've only performed this a few times as I was able to perform it with some consistency after figuring out the timing of it, but was unable to replicate the same result after a few hours later. Perhaps it's character specific?

3. Sweep > 236A~Bx5 > Mudoon > jump forward > 214C > 214D > first trap hits > 236A~D > second trap hits > [2C] > slight delay > 5B > 5C > [236B~D]xN

While this may be obvious for some of you guys, another note on the loops in general is that it's possible to perform these loops even if your opponent does not completely have their back up against the corner, however, instead of jumping forward, you would air dash forward in order to be near your opponent when you set the trap(s).

Feel free to correct or add anything to this.

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so when performing these setups above (thanks for posting btw! really needed it) opponent can always tech after the second 236B~D every time. any idea what I might be doing wrong?

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Just feel I should mention it's probably not necessary to write jump forward or IAD in the combo's notation. It's just for timing really and you just have to wait for the moment where Mudoon's mist stops releasing, In my case I'm usually left with more time.

Note: For when you're too far for 5A and able to confirm off of a well spaced 5B. Kamohito's version of this uses a backdash into [2C] followed by a dash in 2B. Honestly, I could never get the dash in 5B to come out consistently nor able to have the dash in 2B hit the opponent before they recovered so I just took Tempered's advice and omitted the backdash, learned the timing for when I perform [2C], and the 2B delay and now I'm able to perform the loop more consistently now.

Adding on to this if a SMP combo requires a 2B into B double fang but your worried about the height it landed just add 5C and go for the loop. It only lowers the damage by one rep or 200 depending on the set up but when you already doing 6k-11k damage it might not be a big deal.

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Naoto looks like a lot of fun to play. Probably the kind of character a scrub like me should stay the hell away from, but dang it if I'm not going to try anyway, folks!!

My Carl of the new generation.

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I excited to investigate punishes, burst safe options & Resource management options.

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so when performing these setups above (thanks for posting btw! really needed it) opponent can always tech after the second 236B~D every time. any idea what I might be doing wrong?
Are all 3 hits of [2C] actually landing? Are you slow to cancel Naoto's Aim Stance? Are you performing another 236B right away? etc. In any case, this is something you're just going to have to grind it out.

Just feel I should mention it's probably not necessary to write jump forward or IAD in the combo's notation. It's just for timing really and you just have to wait for the moment where Mudoon's mist stops releasing, In my case I'm usually left with more time.

Adding on to this if a SMP combo requires a 2B into B double fang but your worried about the height it landed just add 5C and go for the loop. It only lowers the damage by one rep or 200 depending on the set up but when you already doing 6k-11k damage it might not be a big deal.

If you prefer to wait for Mudoon's mist to stop, then that's fine too, didn't know that waiting actually worked, but anyway I like jumping forward right after Mudoon for that extra "assurance" that Naoto can immediately place a trap, but at the end of the day, do whatever works for you.

And thank you for sharing that. Had no idea you could do [2C] > 2B > 5C. 300 damage is a measly cost if it means making the loop a bit easier now. However I must say that when I perform it on Aigis, she techs out before getting hit by the 5C, so I resort back to [2C] > delay > 2B, which isn't a big deal to me personally since I'm aware of how long the delay is but it'd be nice to know if this fix you posted can be done on everybody or not, and if so, what am I doing wrong.

I excited to investigate punishes, burst safe options & Resource management options.
This is something we should try to find, rather than just try to discover what combos she can do. As for burst safe options, I figured 5C and the second of hit of 236B~D can be used to bait bursts? Happened to me a couple of times.

Oh and I think we should start posting some blockstrings here as well, or maybe start a pressure thread?

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And thank you for sharing that. Had no idea you could do [2C] > 2B > 5C. 300 damage is a measly cost if it means making the loop a bit easier now. However I must say that when I perform it on Aigis, she techs out before getting hit by the 5C, so I resort back to [2C] > delay > 2B, which isn't a big deal to me personally since I'm aware of how long the delay is but it'd be nice to know if this fix you posted can be done on everybody or not, and if so, what am I doing wrong.

You may have left her too high after 2B > 5C that she'd teched before 236B connected.

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Big question for us Naoto players. How can we get people to respect us? Everywhere I go, I encounter players who simply ignore Naoto's pressure and press buttons, and by some ungodly miracle, it goes through everything I try to setup. For example, I first condition them with airtight pressure, then the next time I have them blocking, I go for a [2C] frametrap and they somehow they outpoke me.

I suppose an important answer to this question is to be aware of the game's mechanics and matchups. Naoto most definitely seems like she's NOT the kind of character where you can learn a few combos and expect to win. The reason being is that a good amount of the cast simply have better normals than she does and it's not surprising to lose to someone who's simply mashing and they hope to land a hit in order to convert into a combo. Also, when you're starting out playing as Naoto it's better to simply play her the way she's designed to be played and not try to emulate everything you see in Japanese Naoto vids from the start such as rushdown Naotos, technical IAD combos, etc. as they require you to be skilled, so just keep it simple. And just recently I just played a friend of mine who plays Yu and went about 10-25 with him. Of the matches I won, I played Naoto the "optimal" way, which is keeping my distance with bullets and traps and rushing down only when I have her Persona pressure the opponent. However, of the matches I lost, I tried to beat Yu at his own game, which is face to face, which is not the best way to fight this matchup, simply because he has better normals than Naoto and even a masher could beat me if I tried to beat him at his own game.

To cut to the chase, if we want players to start respecting and fearing Naoto, then we have our work cut out for us. Learn and integrate the game's mechanics, learn those matchups and what the other characters can do, be able to use Naoto's tools effectively, etc.

Your thoughts?

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Can j.C be used as an instant overhead?

also, J.C, one more time, J.C, land combo like Mitsuru? Maybe character specific.

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Can j.C be used as an instant overhead?

also, J.C, one more time, J.C, land combo like Mitsuru? Maybe character specific.

No. Besides, j.C is not an overhead and can be blocked low.

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More of a focus on movement.
This I agree with. Naoto is one of the game's fastest characters (besides Chie and Yosuke?) so use that to your advantage. Even though she has good pressure, especially if used with traps, that's only possible if the opponent fears Naoto, so for now, I suppose it's okay to resort to hit and run tactics in the form of shooting bullets, setting up traps, using her Persona to start pressure, rush in as fast as possible to continue the pressure that her Persona started, blah blah. If you're able to land a hit, back off at moderate distance and repeat the same thing. Also, don't forget that for 25 SP, she can use SB Aim as a Reversal to get out of trouble in the case that your opponent knocked you down and is in your face.

And about j.C. Even though hitbox and the fact that it can lead to Naoto's damaging combos makes you want to abuse it, the start up time is pretty noticeable and her Persona can get outpoked if the opponent uses a faster air attack or AAs you in time. Couldn't imagine how many times I got Persona broken due to my over tendency of her j.C. There are other normals such as her quick j.A for quick downward sky jabs, j.B for vertical air pokes, and j.D for mid to close range vertical spacing so use them to effectively.

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NETPLAY IS WAY TOO FUN

Win first round, dash up gold burst, IK. 90% success rate

I know i should actually try but fuck man this is working way too much to not do, not to mention its fucking hilarious.

Gotta enjoy the first week of online before everyone learns!

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NETPLAY IS WAY TOO FUN

Win first round, dash up gold burst, IK. 90% success rate

I know i should actually try but fuck man this is working way too much to not do, not to mention its fucking hilarious.

Gotta enjoy the first week of online before everyone learns!

Lmao, I'm trying to do everything in my power to play "legit." Can't rely on these netplay shenanigans forever. :lol:

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After training mode, here are some input shortcuts I've ran across.

-Supercancel from snipiefrontx5 to Pistal-Alpha can input as (236A)x5

-Canceling Aim can be input by holding [D]. This can be buffered for the ENTIRE SMP loop. ([D]236B)xN

- Goinng from throw followup into a pistol super can be buffered by this: C+D, 236C~236A/B

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NETPLAY IS WAY TOO FUN

Win first round, dash up gold burst, IK. 90% success rate

I know i should actually try but fuck man this is working way too much to not do, not to mention its fucking hilarious.

Gotta enjoy the first week of online before everyone learns!

So, how do you avoid Naoto's IK?

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NETPLAY IS WAY TOO FUN

Win first round, dash up gold burst, IK. 90% success rate

I know i should actually try but fuck man this is working way too much to not do, not to mention its fucking hilarious.

Gotta enjoy the first week of online before everyone learns!

Best idea

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